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ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues
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Donald Trump wrote: »The North reference was a joke. I don't remember the exact time, but around 10-12 years ago there was a big hullabaloo about strikes and teachers protesting for some very important reason..........and then the day of the strike there was very few on the picket line ... but there were reports (on TV etc.) about all the Asda's or whatever it was, with carparks full of ROI cars on that mid-week morning
Oh right.seems relevant to a discussion about safety protocols for schools and minimising risks..
Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1321863447840215040?s=200 -
Donald Trump wrote: »It seems your response was based on something you imagined that I wrote.
Answer me these:
1) Do you have a fixed curriculum which is determined for you (obviously you know what I mean here - that it does not change year-to-year and that you personally don't have to design or update it)
2) Do you follow the same textbook for that curriculum each year (again realistically speaking....saying it changed 15 years ago and might change in another 5 is not what I mean)
Or do you teach a subject for which there is no curriculum textbook?
You said that teachers "only have to read from the same book year after year" Whether you meant it or not, that suggests that we don't create our own resources.
Your questions.... see this is the same problem I pointed out earlier ... second level teaching can be as much or as little work as you want it to be. The short (and broad) answer to your questions are 1) Yes and 2) Yes. However, it really isnt as easy as that. If you are not interested in why, you can stop reading here.
1. I teach English and MFL. But I am currently working on designing a short course for Junior Cycle. I design the course template and decide on the curriculum for this. I'm not paid to do this and am choosing to do it in my own spare time. I'm not even sure if I'll ever get to teach it due to timetable issues. I don't mind though, because I am enjoying creating it. I am also working on an EAL immersive programme that myself and 3 other colleagues are doing together. Finally, I've designed the level 2 programme for MFL for students in my school who might not be able to participate in a mainstream class but might like the opportunity to study a language. I might not be creating content to third level standard, but it still takes time. However, as I said before, I have chosen to take this on. I'd get paid just the same if I didn't.
2. Again, my choice, but when it comes to MFL, I don't use the book that much as I prefer to make my own content. The bones of my resources can be reused, but every year the content has to be somewhat edited, always to make it more relevant to the group of students sitting in front of me and the direction our learning has been going. I hate to use these awful HDip terms, but correct and worthwhile scaffolding of learning can only happen when the content is personalised. You can't get that from a book. When it comes to English, the texts do change year on year in fairness. There is some amount of rotation (eg Shakespeare at senior cycle is always one of 4 or am I leaving one out??) And again, when it comes to comparative study I will get paid the same if I do the same texts with my 5th years as I did with my 6th years, but if they are different ability levels I wouldn't. My choice, I know.
Just on the text books thing .... when I went to uni, I always bought my books second hand off someone who had used them in the years before me and I always sold them on to someone coming in below me, so textbooks did have a long enough lifespan in uni too from what I remember0 -
JimmyCorkhill wrote: »Teachers looking for any reason to strike, using Covid to get pay increases for those hired post 2010
The ones, the union members voted to take a lower pay instead of taking a pay cut?0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Oh right.seems relevant to a discussion about safety protocols for schools and minimising risks..
Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1321863447840215040?s=20
The context was in the discussion that I said that teachers should have done an initial days strike this week. The reason that I suggested that is that it would lessen the general public attitude of "typical teachers. Using Covid as an excuse to get more money".
In the case of the packed supermarkets up North, although the teachers said they were protesting about some really serious matter, many of them used the strike day as a free day to go shopping. That was highlighted in the media at the time. I think that there were a series of strike days at the time and there were some pleadings beforehand to them not to do that as it would make teachers overall look bad. And it did. Even though it might have been the actions of a relatively small proportion. It negated the claims that their strike was on principle and for the students and not them. The public just saw it as teachers using an excuse to get a free day off to go shopping.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1124/124588-newry/0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »The context was in the discussion that I said that teachers should have done an initial days strike this week. The reason that I suggested that is that it would lessen the general public attitude of "typical teachers. Using Covid as an excuse to get more money".
In the case of the packed supermarkets up North, although the teachers said they were protesting about some really serious matter, many of them used the strike day as a free day to go shopping. That was highlighted in the media at the time. I think that there were a series of strike days at the time and there were some pleadings beforehand to them not to do that as it would make teachers overall look bad. And it did. Even though it might have been the actions of a relatively small proportion. It negated the claims that their strike was on principle and for the students and not them. The public just saw it as teachers using an excuse to get a free day off to go shopping.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1124/124588-newry/
1. You are quoting an article from 11 years ago to try to say public sentiment turned on teachers.. Even though the article says:
"It is thought of those in Newry were on strike or are parents with children who were forced to take the day off school."
So while action was taken, a load of parents went up north to shop...sorry I don't think your article makes the point I think you think it makes. What percentage of the crowd was each? Is there any actual data there or just hearsay and further jokes?
Also
2. "teachers, nurses and other public sector workers were taking part in the strike against the plans of the Government to cut their pay."
So when nurses talk about industrial action do you joke about Northern shopping trips? Again, your point seems tenuous at best.
But that distracts from the point anyway - improving conditions in our schools to limit the spread of a virus in a pandemic, and you think ppl making a picket line in front of a building no one would be using is the key to garnering positive pr? Yeah I don't think I would like you leading my union either.0 -
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Donald Trump wrote: »Ive taught third level on an adjunct basis as well. More as a hobby in spare time than anything else. Have to come up with own materials and assignments and exams from scratch. Postdoc salaries are less than teachers make (I'm not a postdoc - I went into industry rather than trying to slog down that road).
How do you feel about teachers moaning about how tough they have it when they only have to read from the same book year after year on a fixed curriculum?
See earlier post in the thread. A mod warned me so I won't repeat it.
Like yourself, I've also moved to industry and only deliver lectures, laboratory tutorials and set exams nowadays, no more postdoctoral research. Down to 8 hours per week on coursework (plus 5 more for prep). I'll probably move to industry full time after covid. Thankfully only the lab work requires me to attend and deliver in person these days so I'm not as exposed as the teachers but I certainly don't side with them either.0 -
Article is on RTE. They tend not to underplay certain "controversial" things that other outlets would not. I remember the time clearly. You don't. I am only giving you information.Smacruairi wrote: »1. You are quoting an article from 11 years ago to try to say public sentiment turned on teachers.. Even though the article says:
"It is thought of those in Newry were on strike or are parents with children who were forced to take the day off school."
So while action was taken, a load of parents went up north to shop...sorry I don't think your article makes the point I think you think it makes. What percentage of the crowd was each? Is there any actual data there or just hearsay and further jokes?
You can read between the lines of this partThe exodus of shoppers may cause some embarrassment for unions
This was indeed a bigger strike, but teachers later had other exclusive strikes which followed similar patterns. https://www.thejournal.ie/christmas-shopping-2014-1850535-Dec2014/Smacruairi wrote: »Yeah I don't think I would like you leading my union either.
Well your current guys don't look like they are doing too good of a job now do they? I don't see too much support on here from non-teachers for your strike.
Anyway, if you don't want to accept views/advice on how your things look from the outside, then plough ahead regardless.0 -
Bananaleaf wrote: »You said that teachers "only have to read from the same book year after year" Whether you meant it or not, that suggests that we don't create our own resources.
Your questions.... see this is the same problem I pointed out earlier ... second level teaching can be as much or as little work as you want it to be. The short (and broad) answer to your questions are 1) Yes and 2) Yes. However, it really isnt as easy as that. If you are not interested in why, you can stop reading here.
1. I teach English and MFL. But I am currently working on designing a short course for Junior Cycle. I design the course template and decide on the curriculum for this. I'm not paid to do this and am choosing to do it in my own spare time. I'm not even sure if I'll ever get to teach it due to timetable issues. I don't mind though, because I am enjoying creating it. I am also working on an EAL immersive programme that myself and 3 other colleagues are doing together. Finally, I've designed the level 2 programme for MFL for students in my school who might not be able to participate in a mainstream class but might like the opportunity to study a language. I might not be creating content to third level standard, but it still takes time. However, as I said before, I have chosen to take this on. I'd get paid just the same if I didn't.
2. Again, my choice, but when it comes to MFL, I don't use the book that much as I prefer to make my own content. The bones of my resources can be reused, but every year the content has to be somewhat edited, always to make it more relevant to the group of students sitting in front of me and the direction our learning has been going. I hate to use these awful HDip terms, but correct and worthwhile scaffolding of learning can only happen when the content is personalised. You can't get that from a book. When it comes to English, the texts do change year on year in fairness. There is some amount of rotation (eg Shakespeare at senior cycle is always one of 4 or am I leaving one out??) And again, when it comes to comparative study I will get paid the same if I do the same texts with my 5th years as I did with my 6th years, but if they are different ability levels I wouldn't. My choice, I know.
Just on the text books thing .... when I went to uni, I always bought my books second hand off someone who had used them in the years before me and I always sold them on to someone coming in below me, so textbooks did have a long enough lifespan in uni too from what I remember
Maybe that applies in slow moving fields like 2nd level teaching but it certainly isn't the case for fast changing STEM subjects. That said, the basics never change, new mathematical theorems aren't invented overnight nor new atomic elements discovered but the application of said theory evolves regularly. Keeping abreast of the latest developments is a full time role!0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »Article is on RTE. They tend not to underplay certain "controversial" things that other outlets would not.
RTE are nothing but a mouthpiece for the current government of the day, so it is no surprise they were going to spin a story about mythical shopping trips by teachers up North in the broader context of a strike.0 -
machiavellianme wrote: »See earlier post in the thread. A mod warned me so I won't repeat it.
Like yourself, I've also moved to industry and only deliver lectures, laboratory tutorials and set exams nowadays, no more postdoctoral research. Down to 8 hours per week on coursework (plus 5 more for prep). I'll probably move to industry full time after covid. Thankfully only the lab work requires me to attend and deliver in person these days so I'm not as exposed as the teachers but I certainly don't side with them either.
As I had said above, I do it more as a hobby.You wouldn't want to be doing it (as an adjunct) for a living.
The rate of pay is less per hour than most secondary level teachers would get per hour. (assuming a 22 hour week and even pretending they do that every week of the year).
Oh, and before they moan, the rate is per hour of delivery. And preparation etc. is on your own time. If it takes you 3 hours to prepare notes for your one hour lecture, then for your 4 hours you get paid for one hour.0 -
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RTE Radio 1 headlines early this morning mentioned ASTI balloting for strike due to Covid-related issues. And not one mention of "money" that is core to ASTI's demands.RTE are nothing but a mouthpiece for the current government of the day, so it is no surprise they were going to spin a story about mythical shopping trips by teachers up North in the broader context of a strike.
"Trust Matters, Integrity Matters, Truth Matters", but you will not find it in RTE.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »Article is on RTE. They tend not to underplay certain "controversial" things that other outlets would not. I remember the time clearly. You don't. I am only giving you information.
You can read between the lines of this part
This was indeed a bigger strike, but teachers later had other exclusive strikes which followed similar patterns. https://www.thejournal.ie/christmas-shopping-2014-1850535-Dec2014/
Well your current guys don't look like they are doing too good of a job now do they? I don't see too much support on here from non-teachers for your strike.
Anyway, if you don't want to accept views/advice on how your things look from the outside, then plough ahead regardless.
So nothing substantive. Grand, thanks for that. Just your opinion and you wanting me to "read between the lines".0 -
I think teachers need to remember that they actually don't need the public support. They are entitled to fight for safe conditions, equal pay etc. If the public support them great. If they don't then so what? They do an essential job that if they don't do for even a week will cause chaos, teachers need to just forget about public opinion. There will always be haters who know nothing about what they actually are fighting for and that will always be the way. I support any job fighting for safer conditions or equality. Especially during covid 19. If you expect them to risk their lives for your kids them pay them equally.0
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machiavellianme wrote: »Maybe that applies in slow moving fields like 2nd level teaching but it certainly isn't the case for fast changing STEM subjects. That said, the basics never change, new mathematical theorems aren't invented overnight nor new atomic elements discovered but the application of said theory evolves regularly. Keeping abreast of the latest developments is a full time role!
I had a student ask me a question from another of their courses. I directed them to a reference textbook I'd have used 20 years ago.
My point was simply that there isn't usually a single textbook for a class/module that they follow. In secondary school the textbooks are relatively step-by-step and self contained.
I'm not claiming that the lecturers are coming up with their own never-seen-before theories.0 -
RTE Radio 1 headlines early this morning mentioned ASTI balloting for strike due to Covid-related issues. And not one mention of "money" that is core to ASTI's demands.
"Trust Matters, Integrity Matters, Truth Matters", but you will not find it in RTE.
Wow I'm truly amazed, they missed a golden opportunity there.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »So nothing substantive. Grand, thanks for that. Just your opinion and you wanting me to "read between the lines".
No worries. If you aren't able to manage it then don't bother yourself too much about it0 -
Purplewaters wrote: »I think teachers need to remember that they actually don't need the public support. They are entitled to fight for safe conditions, equal pay etc. If the public support them great. If they don't then so what? They do an essential job that if they don't do for even a week will cause chaos, teachers need to just forget about public opinion. There will always be haters who know nothing about what they actually are fighting for and that will always be the way. I support any job fighting for safer conditions or equality. Especially during covid 19. If you expect them to risk their lives for your kids them pay them equally.
Resources are limited. That's just the reality. If teachers, who are low risk according to most experts worldwide, want to selfishly commandeer all those resources for themselves, depriving those objectively more in need of them, then they can't really talk out the other side of their mouth at the same time that they want to support any job trying to be more safe!0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »I had a student ask me a question from another of their courses. I directed them to a reference textbook I'd have used 20 years ago.
My point was simply that there isn't usually a single textbook for a class/module that they follow. In secondary school the textbooks are relatively step-by-step and self contained.
I'm not claiming that the lecturers are coming up with their own never-seen-before theories.
But you are claiming that teachers at secondary level just follow the book?
Leaving Certificate English Higher Level, what textbook covers this course?
Leaving Certificate History, what textbook covers this course?
Junior Cycle English, what textbook covers this course?
Junior Cycle History you MIGHT get away with a textbook if you don't care about teaching but students will not be prepared for the exam (though this course is yet to be tested).
Please stop pontificating about a subject you clearly know very little about.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »
In the case of the packed supermarkets up North, although the teachers said they were protesting about some really serious matter, many of them used the strike day as a free day to go shopping.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1124/124588-newry/
Whatever your 'hobby lecturing' was all about, it can't have involved much in the way of critical thinking if you believe that the car parks of Newry were jammed with teachers that day.
It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact the schools were closed, kids were off, parents decided to do some Crimbo shopping with the free day and the media decided it was too good not to spin it as a load of lazy teachers? Like in the tens of thousands, all heading to Newry?
Donald Trump indeed.0 -
PowerToWait wrote: »Whatever your 'hobby lecturing' was all about, it can't have involved much in the way of critical thinking if you believe that the car parks of Newry were jammed with teachers that day.
It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact the schools were closed, kids were off, parents decided to do some Crimbo shopping with the free day and the media decided it was too good not to spin it as a load of lazy teachers? Like in the tens of thousands, all heading to Newry?
Donald Trump indeed.
Sure maybe it was the fairies and the immigrants in Newry0 -
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Donald Trump wrote: »Resources are limited. That's just the reality. If teachers, who are low risk according to most experts worldwide, want to selfishly commandeer all those resources for themselves, depriving those objectively more in need of them, then they can't really talk out the other side of their mouth at the same time that they want to support any job trying to be more safe!
Resources are able to pay the politicians huge salaries.0 -
Well - when the kids were told to take all their books home before the midterm break this was already obviously going to happen.
Maybe the schools and government will take this opportunity to merge multiple classes in favour of pre- recorded and quality controlled digitally online services - or proper notes posted to homes. Make a mass of deadbeat, lazy and below par teachers irrelevant- and redundant - only without the taxpayer cash handout.
They can start their cull by reviewing all the ‘teaching’ provided by ‘teachers’ during the first lockdown and see if it equates to the days pay they claimed for. I’d like to see a lot of this evaluated anyway - a group email once a day saying read pages x,y& Z and do exercises on page whatever and then dossing off for the rest of the day does not equate teaching or taxpayer value for money and should not get the same salary.
Maybe somebody in authority could start measuring this in advance of the ‘talks’ and start stripping out the dossers and looking for ways to recover their payments made for services not rendered.0 -
JustAThought wrote: »Well - when the kids were told to take all their books home before the midterm break this was already obviously going to happen.
Maybe the schools and government will take this opportunity to merge multiple classes in favour of pre- recorded and quality controlled digitally online services - or proper notes posted to homes. Make a mass of deadbeat, lazy and below par teachers irrelevant- and redundant - only without the taxpayer cash handout.
They can start their cull by reviewing all the ‘teaching’ provided by ‘teachers’ during the first lockdown and see if it equates to the days pay they claimed for. I’d like to see a lot of this evaluated anyway - a group email once a day saying read pages x,y& Z and do exercises on page whatever and then dossing off for the rest of the day does not equate teaching or taxpayer value for money and should not get the same salary.
Maybe somebody in authority could start measuring this in advance of the ‘talks’ and start stripping out the dossers and looking for ways to recover their payments made for services not rendered.
Or maybe teachers could offer private home school hubs to parents. Far cheaper than private school with individual help and safer conditions for all. See of a few videos online do the trick then for your own kids.0 -
Purplewaters wrote: »Or maybe teachers could offer private home school hubs to parents. Far cheaper than private school with individual help and safer conditions for all. See of a few videos online do the trick then for your own kids.
Teachers are highly educated they'll get work either abroad, where they are well respected or here where parents would privately pay for their expertise. There may be an issue with childcare, assessment, corrections of lessons etc for you but sure you can figure it out.0 -
JustAThought wrote: »Well - when the kids were told to take all their books home before the midterm break this was already obviously going to happen.
I know how that looks and I can't speak for all schools but in our school, kids and staff were asked to take all their books home because the school was undergoing a deep clean this week.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »Sure maybe it was the fairies and the immigrants in Newry
So you genuinely believe it the teachers caused the traffic jams and filled Newry that day? That's a fair old trek from most places in Ireland, let's be fair.
I'll give you Dublin, Louth, Meath and mayyybe Westmeath, Kildare. Other counties, Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan, Letrim, Sligo maybe Longford, would have large northern towns closer than Newry.
The rest of the country just wouldn't bother I'm sure. Diminishing returns and all that. Even allowing that they couldn't think of anything better to do with their time than to head to fecking Newry.0 -
PowerToWait wrote: »So you genuinely believe it the teachers caused the traffic jams and filled Newry that day? That's a fair old trek from most places in Ireland, let's be fair.
I'll give you Dublin, Louth, Meath and mayyybe Westmeath, Kildare. Other counties, Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan, Letrim, Sligo maybe Longford, would have large northern towns closer than Newry.
The rest of the country just wouldn't bother I'm sure. Diminishing returns and all that. Even allowing that they couldn't think of anything better to do with their time than to head to fecking Newry.
Why do you appear to think that it would need every teacher in every county in the country to head to newry to fill shops?
I remember it at the time. Teachers were supposed to be picketing their schools and most didn't turn up "for duty".0 -
History Queen wrote: »But you are claiming that teachers at secondary level just follow the book?
Leaving Certificate English Higher Level, what textbook covers this course?
Leaving Certificate History, what textbook covers this course?
Junior Cycle English, what textbook covers this course?
Junior Cycle History you MIGHT get away with a textbook if you don't care about teaching but students will not be prepared for the exam (though this course is yet to be tested).
Please stop pontificating about a subject you clearly know very little about.
Well given that basically every LC student in the country takes English as a subject, and given then that they follow a fairly fixed (over time) curriculum and all sit the same standardized exam, now that you have all of your own material there, why don't you publish it as a textbook and make some money?0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »Why do you appear to think that it would need every teacher in every county in the country to head to newry to fill shops?
I remember it at the time. Teachers were supposed to be picketing their schools and most didn't turn up "for duty".
Sorry if most didn't turn up for duty the unions would have been on the warpath. Can you supply a source for that "memory" or is that again another unsubstantiated opinion of yours.
Remember this is about conditions in schools in one of the most underfunded nations in the oecd in terms of educational provision. Your nonsense about shopping in the North 11 years ago is actually borderline hilarious. We are on level 5 lockdown and you want to ****e on about newry 11 years ago0 -
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Donald Trump wrote: »Well given that basically every LC student in the country takes English as a subject, and given then that they follow a fairly fixed (over time) curriculum and all sit the same standardized exam, now that you have all of your own material there, why don't you publish it as a textbook and make some money?
Because the single text changes every year? Because the 3 different text studied for the comparative change every year. Because the poems change every year?
Because a textbook containing a Shakespearen play and associated notes, a novel and associated notes, another play and associated notes, film notes, a selection of poems from at least 6 different poets and associated notes, essay writing notes, a selection of comprehensions, language skills chapters and general writing skills would probably be impossible to publish unless the writing was made minisucle? Oh... and as outlined above I'd have to publish a new textbook every year.
Again, don't pontificate about topics you clearly know little about.0
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