ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Smacruairi

It's a good thing we are not asking to test everyone all the time isn't it then. It's about using the same close contact definition that is used in every other part of society, and then using that to narrow down cases. But you knew that right? You knew that schools have a different identification of a close contact that the supermarkets, hospitals etc that you loved to mention earlier?

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

When you say online teaching doesn't work, do you mean that its not childcare and that you don't feel its your job to help with any aspect of educating your own kids? Just to be clear, because it could work otherwise.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

awec

Smacruairi wrote: »

It's a good thing we are not asking to test everyone all the time isn't it then. It's about using the same close contact definition that is used in every other part of society, and then using that to narrow down cases. But you knew that right? You knew that schools have a different identification of a close contact that the supermarkets, hospitals etc that you loved to mention earlier?

Serial testing of schools with a 24 hour turnaround on tests is literally 2 of the demands.

Smacruairi

Does serial testing mean everyone in the school all the time? jesus i didn't know that.

Why do you think a close contact means one thing in schools, and one thing in every other enviornment?

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

Well did you try it? Did you assign your child the tasks given by the teacher, send the teacher their work, communicate, access resources for them? Did you try at all is what I'm asking. Or was it a childcare issue.

slipperyox

awec wrote: »

Third level education is for motivated adults. Primary and secondary is children.

Surely you see the difference.

Not all secondary students are children.
According to drop out figures, not all third level students are motivated.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

But look at the amount of teachers we might lose over what is (jesus i hope!) a temporary situation. We already have a serious shortage of teachers. Also i don't agree that remote teaching (in a structured way,not the mess we had last March) is nonsense, how are our third level institutions managing?

But if it is a given that we will lose teachers due to their catching Covid or being out waiting on Covid tests as close contacts, is it then not a given that the sub will end up in the same situation as the teacher and then do we need another sub to cover the first sub. It seems a foolish policy to put more people into the school system ?

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

S&S scheme where possible and substitution. Agree it'll cost more to have substitution.

Or.... we could do what was suggested above and have at risk teachers teach at risk pupils remotely. Both at home, both safer and with their needs being catered for. No extra costs.

How would you coordinate that?


There would have to be the correct number of teachers in each subject who are teaching remotely to match with the remote students needs. And would these matches would be made on a countrywide basis? I would think that they would need to be. If it is restricted to your actual school then say there is only one at-risk student ... then they'd need maybe 8 teachers to be also out at-risk to teach him/her all their subjects.



If countrywide, then you might have a student in Sligo and a student in Cork in your online class....when the pandemic finally ends and you go back to in-person teaching in your own school and the Sligo and Cork students go back to their respective classes...who might have covered things in different order.

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

How would you coordinate that?


countrywide, then you might have a student in Sligo and a student in Cork in your online class....when the pandemic finally ends and you go back to in-person teaching in your own school and the Sligo and Cork students go back to their respective classes...who might have covered things in different order.

Great points, I agree, it's messy. It's almost like when the unions asked for this to be explored and worked on over the summer, they thought it would need more than you and me of a Thurs night thrashing it out. Do you not think the DES is a shambles? You have literally put more thought into it than they have!

Purplewaters

Donald Trump wrote: »

How would you coordinate that?


There would have to be the correct number of teachers in each subject who are teaching remotely to match with the remote students needs. And would these matches would be made on a countrywide basis? I would think that they would need to be. If it is restricted to your actual school then say there is only one at-risk student ... then they'd need maybe 8 teachers to be also out at-risk to teach him/her all their subjects.



If countrywide, then you might have a student in Sligo and a student in Cork in your online class....when the pandemic finally ends and you go back to in-person teaching in your own school and the Sligo and Cork students go back to their respective classes...who might have covered things in different order.

Lots of American schools have hybrid or online or in person. Some have only online. They made it work. So did Canada etc as parents pushed for it. I suppose Irish parents like to moan instead of looking for safer conditions for their kids. I think Canadian parents supported their teachers.

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

Well did you try it? Did you assign your child the tasks given by the teacher, send the teacher their work, communicate, access resources for them? Did you try at all is what I'm asking. Or was it a childcare issue.

My children are not yet of school age, so no I didn't try it.

But I think you're missing the point. The fact that parents have to assign tasks, or send teachers work, or communicate, or access resources, is proof that teaching remotely does not work.

Teachers cannot do their job (they are paid to do all of the above). Parents have to do part of it for them.

It's like you hiring a painter, but all he does is send you the paint in the cans. You've to put it on the walls yourself.

slipperyox

awec wrote: »

My children are not yet of school age, so no I didn't try it.

But I think you're missing the point. The fact that parents have to assign tasks, or send teachers work, or communicate, or access resources, is proof that teaching remotely does not work.

Teachers cannot do their job (they are paid to do all of the above). Parents have to do part of it for them.

In all schools. Parents are defined as the main educators

awec

slipperyox wrote: »

In all schools. Parents are defined as the main educators

Sure what are we paying those teachers for at all then?

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

Lots of American schools have hybrid or online or in person. Some have only online. They made it work. So did Canada etc as parents pushed for it. I suppose Irish parents like to moan instead of looking for safer conditions for their kids. I think Canadian parents supported their teachers.

Did Canadian teachers strike for pay rises during covid?

Smacruairi

again teachers pay, obsessed with it. almost liek you dont care for conditions at all as I guessed earlier.

awec

Smacruairi wrote: »

again teachers pay, obsessed with it. almost liek you dont care for conditions at all as I guessed earlier.

I care for conditions.

But I have no time for unrealistic demands. Serial testing of all schools with 24 hour turnarounds.

They may as well strike demanding a vaccine.

slipperyox

awec wrote: »

Sure what are we paying those teachers for at all then?

To educate them in subjects/parents are not crafted in.
And prepare them for 3rd level.

I think you'd make a great teacher awec

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

Did Canadian teachers strike for pay rises during covid?

They mentioned strike but the government listened and they now have a mix of online and in person depending on what the parent and teacher select. Easily done if the government had tried.

You will always be the primary educator of your child. A teacher will teach them during the year and you will need to help them with homework, make sure they do the work etc and that's the responsibility you take on as a parent. The teacher will teach while your child is in school but you are always supposed to be the primary educator. If you can't send back a few photos of work and assign tasks to one child ( not 30 as teacher would have) then maybe you shouldn't have had children.

Smacruairi

awec wrote: »

I care for conditions.

But I have no time for unrealistic demands. .

Nah, you've harped on about sacking teachers, putting teachers on PUP, called teachers whingers, heads in arses, called anything said to you rubbish and bollix, you don't give a hoot about school communities based on your responses.


Here's a simple question and i'll leave it, seeing as you keep ignoring it. Why is student marked a close contact in a restaurant, but not a school classroom? Do you think that is right or appropriate?

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

They mentioned strike but the government listened and they now have a mix of online and in person depending on what the parent and teacher select. Easily done if the government had tried.

You will always be the primary educator of your child. A teacher will teach them during the year and you will need to help them with homework, make sure they do the work etc and that's the responsibility you take on as a parent. The teacher will teach while your child is in school but you are always supposed to be the primary educator. If you can't send back a few photos of work and assign tasks to one child ( not 30 as teacher would have) then maybe you shouldn't have had children.

Sure if we didn't have children you'd be out of the job.

What we've arrived at now is that it's just the parents moaning about the teachers not doing the job they're paid to do. "Do part of our jobs for us, and if you complain you shouldn't have had kids".

As I said earlier, there is no group of workers in Ireland with their head further up their own arse than teachers.

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

I care for conditions.

But I have no time for unrealistic demands. Serial testing of all schools with 24 hour turnarounds.

They may as well strike demanding a vaccine.

I presume they mean that everyone should be considered a contact who would be considered a contact in every other line of work? In schools due to the numbers this would amount to a lot of children. When they chose to open schools in full with full capacity and no distancing and in primary no masks they basically chose for this to be the case.

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

Sure if we didn't have children you'd be out of the job.

What we've arrived at now is that it's just the parents moaning about the teachers not doing the job they're paid to do.

As I said earlier, there is no group of workers in Ireland with their head further up their own arse than teachers.

Think they'd survive they have degrees and are well educated. Plenty of other jobs they could get.

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

Think they'd survive they have degrees and are well educated. Plenty of other jobs they could get.

So why don't they go get them?

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

Sure if we didn't have children you'd be out of the job.

What we've arrived at now is that it's just the parents moaning about the teachers not doing the job they're paid to do. "Do part of our jobs for us, and if you complain you shouldn't have had kids".

As I said earlier, there is no group of workers in Ireland with their head further up their own arse than teachers.

Same could be said for the type of Irish parent like yourself. Not all parents are the same but some are right whingers.

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

So why don't they go get them?

Well there's a shortage of teachers at the moment so they don't need to. If you stopped having kids like you're threatening to then maybe they would look elsewhere. Did you ever consider trying teaching? You'd be fantastic and you'd really get a taste for it. It's so easy too and all they do is moan. You would have the time of your life.

slipperyox

awec wrote: »

Sure if we didn't have children you'd be out of the job.

What we've arrived at now is that it's just the parents moaning about the teachers not doing the job they're paid to do. "Do part of our jobs for us, and if you complain you shouldn't have had kids".

As I said earlier, there is no group of workers in Ireland with their head further up their own arse than teachers.

What do you do for a living?

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

Same could be said for the type of Irish parent like yourself. Not all parents are the same but some are right whingers.

Not really, I think this is showing just how detached from reality you are.

In the past 8 months we've had:

- A total shutdown of retail, many of which will never recover
- A total shutdown of hospitality, many of which will never recover
- Front line workers battling unprecedented conditions, during a global pandemic (without striking, extra kudos there)
- A total shutdown of many small businesses, many of whom will never recover
- A record number of people being put on what is essentially social welfare

Meanwhile, teachers had a few months off work. Full salary. Then they were back at work, and now they're off again. Again, full salary. If the schools have to shut again due to covid then guess what, full salary. There is no income concerns for teachers on the horizon.

Now they're talking of striking, cause their work is so dangerous. But they also want pay rises, which we can't forget.

And then we have you, telling us that any parent who has a problem with this shouldn't have had kids. Or is a whinger.

What can I say that has not already been said?

Purplewaters

awec wrote: »

Not really, I think this is showing just how detached from reality you are.

In the past 8 months we've had:

- A total shutdown of retail
- Front line workers battling unprecedented conditions, during a global pandemic (without striking, extra kudos there)
- A total shutdown of many small businesses, many of whom will never recover
- A record number of people being put on what is essentially social welfare

Meanwhile, teachers had a few months off work. Full salary. Then they were back at work, and now they're off again. Again, full salary. If the schools have to shut again due to covid then guess what, full salary.

Now they're talking of striking, cause their work is so dangerous. But they also want pay rises.

And then we have you, telling us that any parent who has a problem with this shouldn't have had kids. Or is a whinger.

What can I say that has not already been said?

Who is we? Everyone? Have you been sitting at home on pup or out working? Because if you're at home on pup what makes you so different? Teachers worked so we're entitled to wages like anyone working from home. The 2 months of summer aren't actually paid as their wages are divided for the time they do work and spread out. So temp teachers or subs actually didn't get paid for that time and permanent teacher's just spread their pay out over the holidays. But yeah teachers got paid and worked from home. Parents are teachers and teachers are parents. I don't get your point.

awec

Purplewaters wrote: »

Who is we? Everyone? Have you been sitting at home on pup or out working? Because if you're at home on pup what makes you so different? Teachers worked so we're entitled to wages like anyone working from home. The 2 months of summer aren't actually paid as their wages are divided for the time they do work and spread out. So temp teachers or subs actually didn't get paid for that time and permanent teacher's just spread their pay out over the holidays. But yeah teachers got paid and worked from home. Parents are teachers and teachers are parents. I don't get your point.

Exactly. You don't get it.

You are not the only one on this thread in fairness.

Purplewaters

I wouldn't call 350 a week social welfare when many who were on it actually made less before they got it. The people who earned more should have actually gotten more but plenty got paid more than they ever earned.

In addition the government subsidised plenty of jobs that worked from home so they could stay viable.

Anyway last I checked all the events you listed also happened to teachers including the front line workers part which is way they've been doing for the last 2months.