ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Donald Trump

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The 14 day quarantine only applies to close contacts.

If somone develops symptoms without having being identified as a close contact then they get tested. If they test negative, and the symptoms have cleared for 48 hours they may return to work.

Ah right. I had that backwards!

khalessi

Nermal wrote: »

Childcare is a component of a teacher’s job.

Teaching remotely is, effectively, not performing all your duties.

Are you prepared to take a significant pay cut to work remotely? If not, why do you think you deserve the same rewards for doing less work?

Actually it works out at more work.

Do you expect gps who are seeing patients over the phone to get a pay cut?

Nermal

khalessi wrote: »

Do you expect gps who are seeing patients over the phone to get a pay cut?

I can choose whether I feel the service is worth what the GP will charge me.

Can I choose whether a teacher 'working from home' is worth what I'm paying?

Mrsmum

khalessi wrote: »

Actually it works out at more work.

Do you expect gps who are seeing patients over the phone to get a pay cut?

My GP is normally 60 euro, over the phone consultation is 30 euro. Is that not the norm ?

ETA I think teaching remotely is more work for the teacher but the product is not half as good.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

Actually it works out at more work.

Do you expect gps who are seeing patients over the phone to get a pay cut?

Teaching remotely is actually a lot more work if you are trying to do it correct. I would not dispute that. I delivered some lectures before the Summer and it was a lot more work to do it remotely because I couldn't just be writing and scribbling stuff on the board as things came up. I also found that the pace of going through things was slower. In a live situation you can get an idea of when they are seeing stuff that it easy to them all and you can speed a bit through it.



I reckon that the general public is suspicious (rightly or wrongly) that there will be a mix of 2 things
1) Kids won't learn as well via that medium
2) Some teachers may not adapt very well, or might not put in the effort. No need to get your knickers in a twist over that. I am not saying every teacher or all teachers blah blah.



And then there is the third big one which is the parents who just don't want the children at home during the day.


GPs is one extreme. Teachers are not GPs. And some things you would not do over a call e.g. if you had a sick baby, you might need to bring the child to a person for physical exam. I mean the other extreme is the shelf-stacker. They can't really do their job remotely (unless they develop robots they can control :-) )

awec

Mrsmum wrote: »

My GP is normally 60 euro, over the phone consultation is 30 euro. Is that not the norm ?

Yes, GP consultations over the phone are cheaper here too.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Teaching remotely is actually a lot more work if you are trying to do it correct. I would not dispute that. I delivered some lectures before the Summer and it was a lot more work to do it remotely because I couldn't just be writing and scribbling stuff on the board as things came up. I also found that the pace of going through things was slower. In a live situation you can get an idea of when they are seeing stuff that it easy to them all and you can speed a bit through it.



I reckon that the general public is suspicious (rightly or wrongly) that there will be a mix of 2 things
1) Kids won't learn as well via that medium
2) Some teachers may not adapt very well, or might not put in the effort. No need to get your knickers in a twist over that. I am not saying every teacher or all teachers blah blah.



And then there is the third big one which is the parents who just don't want the children at home during the day.

Can't have the children at home during the day. Parents cannot do their own jobs properly if they are also having to do part of the job of the teacher.

Warbeastrior

Equal pay issue is poorly timed ill admit.

But there is currently no other workers in society being asked to work in the type of conditions that school staff have to apart from healthcare which is a completely different scenario.
They are well within their rights to request improved guidelines with regards Covid-19.

Listening to an interview by a union rep on Newstalk this morning: "Teachers can't afford to be purchasing hand sanitisers, they don't have enough money in their bank accounts". The absolute cheek of that remark. The same teachers who were twiddling their thumbs piling on full salaries all those months. Ten members of staff couldn't possibly afford to split €50-€100 between them. And then they wonder why there isn't a terrible amount of sympathy for their cause, how can they see straight with their noses so high in the air.

History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Listening to an interview by a union rep on Newstalk this morning: "Teachers can't afford to be purchasing hand sanitisers, they don't have enough money in their bank accounts". The absolute cheek of that remark. The same teachers who were twiddling their thumbs piling on full salaries all those months. Ten members of staff couldn't possibly afford to split €50-€100 between them. And then they wonder why there isn't a terrible amount of sympathy for their cause, how can they see straight with their noses so high in the air.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with this comment speaks volumes

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

The fact that you see nothing wrong with this comment speaks volumes

Surely the teachers saved on some expenses during the months when they were off?


I mean as in petrol or transport costs. Clothes for work, lunch etc.



When the corona kicked off in March, most people I know started carrying around their own little hand sanitisers. The work should provide them of course but I still carry one the odd time that I must go somewhere. There is a garage close to me where I would get diesel and they do have a sanitiser outside on a stand.........but you wouldn't want to be guaranteeing it....because it seems to be empty the odd time.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

Surely the teachers saved on some expenses during the months when they were off?


I mean as in petrol or transport costs. Clothes for work, lunch etc.



When the corona kicked off in March, most people I know started carrying around their own little hand sanitisers. The work should provide them of course but I still carry one the odd time that I must go somewhere. There is a garage close to me where I would get diesel and they do have a sanitiser outside on a stand.........but you wouldn't want to be guaranteeing it....because it seems to be empty the odd time.

What has that got to do with anything?

blanch152

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Interesting international data starting to be one available regarding schools

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1030/1174784-schools-coronavirus/

The link doesn't work for some reason, so here it is again:

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1030/1174784-schools-coronavirus/

"Nature says the evidence shows that even in places where community infections were on the rise, "outbreaks in schools were uncommon, particularly when precautions were taken to reduce transmission".

It points to Italy where despite numbers climbing in the community, in 93% of school cases only one infection was reported, and only one secondary school had a cluster of more than ten infected people.

Again, this mirrors the picture in schools here where, according to HSE data, transmission of the virus within schools is estimated to have taken place in just 1.5% of all schools, with an average of just three students or staff infected in these cases."

"The Nature article also cites data from school outbreaks in England, which shows that out of 30 confirmed school outbreaks in June, most involved transmission between staff not students."

I've been pretty much saying all of that all along.

The mod warning earlier that "Posting things that have no evidence in proof does not help the discussion" was interesting. The evidence is now clearer again that schools are not hotbeds of transmission, and that once the proper precautions are taken, as set out by our own Department of Education, that schools are safe places to be.

The ASTI vote is very interesting in that context. Teachers have long been held up by society as among the most educated, yet in the debate between science on the one side and the conspiracy theory mob Facebook pages on the other, the union has come down against the science. Is that a sign of the times? Is it something we should be worried about in terms of the quality of our education system? Is it something that reflects a general societal move away from the science? These are questions that are left hanging out there by the outcome.

Warbeastrior

Deleted User wrote:

Listening to an interview by a union rep on Newstalk this morning: "Teachers can't afford to be purchasing hand sanitisers, they don't have enough money in their bank accounts". The absolute cheek of that remark. The same teachers who were twiddling their thumbs piling on full salaries all those months. Ten members of staff couldn't possibly afford to split €50-€100 between them. And then they wonder why there isn't a terrible amount of sympathy for their cause, how can they see straight with their noses so high in the air.

There are no words for comments like this.

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything?

The chain of events was about teachers not being able to afford their own hand sanitizers. I am pointing out that most regular people have their own.


Nobody would suggest that teachers pay to install communal stations but it is not unreasonable for them to have their own. Most people carry their own around anyway. Anywhere I go, I bring my own rather than use a communal one anyway as a lot of the communal ones have manual things you have to press.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

The chain of events was about teachers not being able to afford their own hand sanitizers. I am pointing out that most regular people have their own.


Nobody would suggest that teachers pay to install communal stations but it is not unreasonable for them to have their own. Most people carry their own around anyway. Anywhere I go, I bring my own rather than use a communal one anyway as a lot of the communal ones have manual things you have to press.

Do people actually realise that teachers are people too? We're not powered off and kept in a cupboard overnight. We have families, spouses who lost jobs, mortgages to pay, bills etc the same as everyone else.

We are worried sick about how to survive on a single income and then we have to contend with every gob****e with an opinion telling us to suck it up when our employer won't afford us the same basic safety requirements as the rest of society. We have to endure idiots telling us they know our financial situation better than we do. We are expected to take it lying down when it is suggested we provide our own PPE at work (remember we already pay for our own masks and now imbeciles think we should add sanatiser to the list). All along with being told we are crap at our job, we only need to read the next page of the book anyway and that we need a reality check. Not forgetting that we are apparently entitled and need to get our heads out of our arses.

And that's the short version.

I call bull**** on this country and the selfishness of our society.

awec

History Queen wrote: »

Do people actually realise that teachers are people too? We're not powered off and kept in a cupboard overnight. We have families, spouses who lost jobs, mortgages to pay, bills etc the same as everyone else.

We are worried sick about how to survive on a single income and then we have to contend with every gob****e with an opinion telling us to suck it up when our employer won't afford us the same basic safety requirements as the rest of society. We have to endure idiots telling us they know our financial situation better than we do. We are expected to take it lying down when it is suggested we provide our own PPE at work (remember we already pay for our own masks and now imbeciles think we should add sanatiser to the list). All along with being told we are crap at our job, we only need to read the next page of the book anyway and that we need a reality check. Not forgetting that we are apparently entitled and need to get our heads out of our arses.

And that's the short version.

I call bull**** on this country and the selfishness of our society.

Not really the same as everyone else though. Your income is guaranteed. If the schools close the taxpayer will still pay you.

You realise that for the vast majority of people this is not true, right? When businesses close, people don't get their salaries.

You must realise that there has been an enormous amount of people who went weeks / months without a salary this year. Some people haven't been at work since the first lockdown. All the while, your income was completely uninterrupted, even while schools were closed.

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Do people actually realise that teachers are people too? We're not powered off and kept in a cupboard overnight. We have families, spouses who lost jobs, mortgages to pay, bills etc the same as everyone else.

We are worried sick about how to survive on a single income and then we have to contend with every gob****e with an opinion telling us to suck it up when our employer won't afford us the same basic safety requirements as the rest of society. We have to endure idiots telling us they know our financial situation better than we do. We are expected to take it lying down when it is suggested we provide our own PPE at work (remember we already pay for our own masks and now imbeciles think we should add sanatiser to the list). All along with being told we are crap at our job, we only need to read the next page of the book anyway and that we need a reality check. Not forgetting that we are apparently entitled and need to get our heads out of our arses.

And that's the short version.

I call bull**** on this country and the selfishness of our society.

The bit in bold is a lie. Schools are providing the safety requirements as set out by the Department of Education.

Sure, teachers want more, but that is based on nothing more than mob panic and Facebook pages, it is not based on science.

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

The bit in bold is a lie. Schools are providing the safety requirements as set out by the Department of Education.

Sure, teachers want more, but that is based on nothing more than mob panic and Facebook pages, it is not based on science.

Proving my point

History Queen

awec wrote: »

Not really the same as everyone else though. Your income is guaranteed. If the schools close the taxpayer will still pay you.

You realise that for the vast majority of people this is not true, right? When businesses close, people don't get their salaries.

You realise that there has been an enormous amount of people who went weeks / months without a salary this year. Some people haven't been at work since the first lockdown. All the while, your income was completely uninterrupted, even while schools were closed.

All employees working from home were paid as you are well aware. My husband lost his job.

awec

History Queen wrote: »

All employees working from home were paid as you are well aware. My husband lost his job.

Many people who worked from home were paid. Many people were not, were businesses closed as they cannot work from home.

Nobody's income in business is guaranteed. If a business closes, then you don't work, and you don't get paid.

Teachers, on the other hand, will get paid their salary whether or not the schools are open. There is no income concerns for teachers, you should stop trying to equate yourself with people who genuinely have worries in this area.

History Queen

awec wrote: »

Many people who worked from home were paid. Many people were not, were businesses closed as they cannot work from home.

Nobody's income in business is guaranteed. If a business closes, then you don't work, and you don't get paid.

Teachers, on the other hand, will get paid their salary whether or not the schools are open. There is no income concerns for teachers, you should stop trying to equate yourself with people who genuinely have worries in this area.

Are you seriously trying to claim some people working from home were not paid? And the fact that you cannot understand that going from two incomes to one in a household causes huge concern shows your bias.

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Proving my point

Proving the opposite, that teachers are not basing their claim on reality.

Just look at the ballot options, one of them was for N95 masks!!

khalessi

awec wrote: »

Many people who worked from home were paid. Many people were not, were businesses closed as they cannot work from home.

Nobody's income in business is guaranteed. If a business closes, then you don't work, and you don't get paid.

Teachers, on the other hand, will get paid their salary whether or not the schools are open. There is no income concerns for teachers, you should stop trying to equate yourself with people who genuinely have worries in this area.

So what you are saying is if a couple only has one person working because of pandemic they have no say. Teachers have been afected too, it isnt a competition., partners have lost jobs so cop on it is a weak argument. Not every teacher is married/partnered to someone in public sector, same as not everyone in private sector is married/partnered to someone in private sector

screamer

I don’t think pulling teachers apart because they got paid in lockdown is helpful. We’d all love the same treatment, unfortunately our employers can’t afford that, neither can the government but they have the tax payer on the hook..
I don’t know the ins and outs of all of the teachers grievances, but I do think schools need to stay open and I think were there better consultation and plans put in place with teachers by the department of education, we wouldn’t be in this situation. There are solutions, but I really believe that this railroading by the department has just gotten teachers heckles up, and I think it’s gonna make for a tough situation for finding solutions in.

My kids have their own sanitizer, masks and wipes since returning to primary. It’s called being a responsible parent, and I don’t expect anyone else to provide for them.

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

Do people actually realise that teachers are people too? We're not powered off and kept in a cupboard overnight. We have families, spouses who lost jobs, mortgages to pay, bills etc the same as everyone else.

We are worried sick about how to survive on a single income and then we have to contend with every gob****e with an opinion telling us to suck it up when our employer won't afford us the same basic safety requirements as the rest of society. We have to endure idiots telling us they know our financial situation better than we do. We are expected to take it lying down when it is suggested we provide our own PPE at work (remember we already pay for our own masks and now imbeciles think we should add sanatiser to the list). All along with being told we are crap at our job, we only need to read the next page of the book anyway and that we need a reality check. Not forgetting that we are apparently entitled and need to get our heads out of our arses.

And that's the short version.

I call bull**** on this country and the selfishness of our society.

Again, the context was in response to a poster who said there was a union rep on the radio giving the poor mouth and saying that teachers as a group don't have enough money in their bank accounts to be able to afford hand sanitizer.


I made some reasonable points that
A) Most people buy their own (it isn't luxuriously expensive)
Surely teachers would have saved a bit on expenses when things were locked down


I'm not attacking anyone. Simply making the point that it is not really credulous that there are a lot of teachers out there who can't afford to buy some hand sanitizer. I am sure that there might be one or two but to state that as a group, they cannot afford a few Euros here or there is kind of silly.



My brother in law was put on reduced hours and then PUP last March and was on it for a few months. He has a good job in a construction related company. My sister said at the time that it would be tough but that at least they had much less expenses than normal times. No travel expenses. All the kids activities had been suspended etc. So that is a normal situation where people managed to cope on reduced income. Contrast that with the view that teachers, as a group, who continued to be paid 100%, and would have been able to make the same savings as regards expenses, now don't have a fiver in their bank accounts for a hand sanitiser. Can you not see why the poor-mouth pleadings might be being met with eye-rolling?

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to claim some people working from home were not paid? And the fact that you cannot understand that going from two incomes to one in a household causes huge concern shows your bias.

Of course it does, but it is a stretch to suggest you can't afford a €1 bottle of hand sanitiser for personal use.

awec

History Queen wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to claim some people working from home were not paid? And the fact that you cannot understand that going from two incomes to one in a household causes huge concern shows your bias.

No?

You realise that households have went from 2 incomes to no incomes, right? This is what you are not getting.

If you have a teacher in your household, you are in a far better and far more secure situation than 2 people in the private sector.

khalessi

awec wrote: »

No?

You realise that people have went from 2 incomes to no incomes, right? This is what you are not getting.

If you have a teacher in your household, you are in a far better and far more secure situation than 2 people in the private sector.

Right so everyone in private sector here with partner in public sector get out? What a wishy washy viewpoint

Losing one wage makes life very difficult for people as does losing 2

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

Right so everyone in private sector here with partner in public sector get out? What a wishy washy viewpoint

Losing one wage makes life very difficult for people as does losing 2

The fella is only making a simple and factual point.

blanch152

screamer wrote: »

I don’t think pulling teachers apart because they got paid in lockdown is helpful. We’d all love the same treatment, unfortunately our employers can’t afford that, neither can the government but they have the tax payer on the hook..
I don’t know the ins and outs of all of the teachers grievances, but I do think schools need to stay open and I think were there better consultation and plans put in place with teachers by the department of education, we wouldn’t be in this situation. There are solutions, but I really believe that this railroading by the department has just gotten teachers heckles up, and I think it’s gonna make for a tough situation for finding solutions in.

I disagree, there was plenty of consultation, the number of circulars agreed by the unions with the Department and put up on the web are testamount to that.

The issue here is unreasonable union demands. They dropped the ask for some of the more ludicrous ones, but when we have real high-risk areas in the economy - hospitals, nursing homes, meat factories - still having to work on regardless, seeking special treatment for schools which are low-risk is the sign of a selfish self-centred approach from their union.