ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

machiavellianme

Mrsmum wrote: »

In fairness, teachers being paid during lockdown were in the same boat as Google employees and so forth being paid to work from home. No big deal there. I personally don't think teaching lends itself to remote learning but it wasn' t their fault back then that the schools were shut.

Why not? The kids of today probably consume 90% of their information online. It's their first port of call. When you ask them a question they'll Google the answer or watch a YouTube tutorial, especially at secondary level.

Baggly

Mod

We are going to take an hour out where hopefully EVERYONE contributing to this thread will get a breather and remember to treat those with opposing opinions WITH RESPECT.

Some of the hyperbole from either side here is out of order, and while this may be an emotive issue for people in this thread, there is absolutely no justification for losing the head.

Ill be back in an hour to reopen the thread. If the people making attacks cannot control themselves after that, we will go to threadbans and cards instead.

Baggly

Mod

Be good to each other folks. Cards and bans from here on out.

endacl

I have a strong opinion in the matter, but decline to post it.

Donald Trump

endacl wrote: »

I have a strong opinion in the matter, but decline to post it.

Ah go on. We're interested now. You have to tell us

endacl

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah go on. We're interested now. You have to tell us

I will reveal that on the ‘strongly held’ scale of 0-10, it’s probably a 8.5, if not a 9. That’s as much as I’m prepared too say.

Bobtheman

The situation in schools is farcical. A parent /teacher on rte said as a parent she was told there was 1 case in her school. As a teacher=10. Obviously the origin of the cases are unknown.
We plough ahead but would be decent if the definition of a close contact remained constant in or out of a school gate. Anybody who trusts the government figures should note what the HSE wanted to do with the cervical cancer scandal intially- just bury it and who was in the HSE at the time and now ?

Bobtheman

Dav010 wrote: »

You will soon be able to get a rapid test in Boots, results in 12 mins.

Reading what has been written in this thread, I think, gives a good indication of what the public reaction will be, particularly if schools close. Most of the public will not fully understand the teachers concerns, many will think teachers working conditions are better than theirs, a lot will assume it is a cynical attempt to get a pay rise.

Unfortunately teachers, in what I can only assume is either stupidity or just being tone deaf, decided to elevate their issue to one about pay when hundreds of thousands are on reduced hours, temporarily off work, or worse, have lost their jobs altogether. It really is mind boggling.

On another thread, many teachers posted they don’t care about public perception or support, they don’t need it, their position is too strong, their conviction too true. Again, I think personally this shows an incredible lack of awareness, if parents in hard pressed working families have to stay home to mind kids off school, causing further financial hardship, and, parents concerns for their kids education elevate, the teaching profession is going to be the target for their displeasure.

Lastly, at the risk of labouring the point, in a union with supposedly intelligent members, surely someone said to the Union heads, balloting on strike action for a pay increase might not be the brightest thing to do at the moment, let’s keep the message about Covid and safety concerns. So please, enough of the snide remarks about other posters ability to assimilate the information, ASTI members who voted on this are not exactly beacons for intelligent thought at the moment.

Don't be getting too excited now. No decision has been made to strike on equal pay. Ballots expensive. It was in the works since March and according to union rules had to be seen through .

Bananaleaf

One of the saddest things about teaching in general is that there are parents and teachers that are so hell-bent on blaming each other for whatever imperfect situation we find ourselves in, that they lose sight of the fact that they are on the same side.

While one is busy telling the other how it's not their job to do XYZ, there is a child who is STILL not getting what they need, yet nobody cares because they're too busy taking the high road.

Numerous times on this thread alone I have pointed out how the quality of education I am able to provide these days is really not great, due to Covid. I was deliberately light on the details to see if anyone would ask why or what it was that the children were missing out on. Nobody did.

Numerous times on this thread, when it was suggested that v high risk teachers should be thrown out to pasture, the question of what should happen to v high risk students was asked by some other posters here. Nobody answered.

It's not all parents. I know that for a fact. The parents I work with are absolute gems and I am sure there are some of them on here too. It's not all teachers either. Some of the regular posters here have proven in other threads how dedicated they are. But, as teachers, we are being ignorant (and not helping ourselves) if we deny that lazy teachers also exist. There's at least one in every school!

Reading this thread is like watching a husband and wife on the cusp of divorce, bickering in public. It's embarrassing, self-serving and everyone is sick of listening to it!

awec

Bananaleaf wrote: »

One of the saddest things about teaching in general is that there are parents and teachers that are so hell-bent on blaming each other for whatever imperfect situation we find ourselves in, that they lose sight of the fact that they are on the same side.

While one is busy telling the other how it's not their job to do XYZ, there is a child who is STILL not getting what they need, yet nobody cares because they're too busy taking the high road.

Numerous times on this thread alone I have pointed out how the quality of education I am able to provide these days is really not great, due to Covid. I was deliberately light on the details to see if anyone would ask why or what it was that the children were missing out on. Nobody did.

Numerous times on this thread, when it was suggested that v high risk teachers should be thrown out to pasture, the question of what should happen to v high risk students was asked by some other posters here. Nobody answered.

It's not all parents. I know that for a fact. The parents I work with are absolute gems and I am sure there are some of them on here too. It's not all teachers either. Some of the regular posters here have proven in other threads how dedicated they are. But, as teachers, we are being ignorant (and not helping ourselves) if we deny that lazy teachers also exist. There's at least one in every school!

Reading this thread is like watching a husband and wife on the cusp of divorce, bickering in public. It's embarrassing, self-serving and everyone is sick of listening to it!

Bananaleaf, I appreciate you're trying to take a reasonable stance on this. I am not anti-teacher. There are lots of teachers in my family of all varieties, primary, secondary, school principals. My mother in law is a teacher.

But I take issue with "we're on the same side". Do teachers not realise that what they are proposing to do, at this moment in time, is absolutely not what parents need right now. We can debate the covid issues until the cows come home, but surely we can all agree that the equal pay provision at this moment in time is genuinely ludicrous.

If teachers strike, then schools have to close. Parents will have to take time off work. For many parents, given the hardships they've already endured this year with people being furloughed or worse, this will be incredibly tough. I am not sure a message of "we're on the same side" is really what they want to hear right now.

There has been posts on here from more than one poster trying to paint teachers as the great victims here. Anyone who doesn't support them just hates teachers. It is hard to read, when you consider all those people out there who have suffered far worse than teachers have. There are people all over the country who I am sure would gladly stand in classrooms all day if they were guaranteed a salary and guaranteed to have a job in the new year. While the covid protection is likely less than perfect, the refusal to accept that teachers are very well looked after by the state is incredibly frustrating. As I said already, there are no teachers worried if they'll be signing on for the dole in 2021.

I don't blame teachers for where we find ourselves right now, but surely teachers must realise that the actions they are proposing to take are ill-advised and ill-timed.

Fuascailteoir

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

The government needs to break these rogue unions once and for all.

If you begin to resemble Maggie Thatcher it is a good time to enter a period of introspection

wirelessdude01

blanch152 wrote: »

All circulars are agreed through a consultation process with the teacher trade unions at the Teachers Conciliation Council.

This shows 100% you haven't the foggiest. Circulars getting dropped.on a Friday evening aren't agreed in advance. They are published and we have to fall in line with them.

jmayo

I know teachers can get the sh*tty end of the stick when it comes to having to teach big classes in overcrowded ill equipped conditions.
It is a joke that some schools have to operate out of portacabins for years on end.
And that is down to politicians, but parents and teachers should finally start forcing politicians to get their act together with regard planning.
Another debate.

I think it is especially hard to teach nowadays when kids, and indeed their parents, can be absolute tools and ar**holes.

Maybe it was that I went to school when an absolute tool and scumbag of a kid could get smack to try get him back in line rather than screw up everyone's life and not just that of a teacher.
But that is another debate.

But there is a big but.
In my experience more than a fair few teachers are while away their time, content in the knowledge that nothing will happen to them.

I have seen countless teachers (and indeed lecturers in universities) that should frankly be fired for incompetence and laziness.

Teachers who read the paper in class, teachers that mitch off to do farm work, teachers who are already working on their careera in GAA coaching or politics.
Ever wonder why so many politicians and GAA coaches are teachers?
It is because they have the fooking spare time to work on those things, unlike most other people.

I hear teachers going on about how hard it is teaching a room full of kids.
Yes it is hard, but on the other hand you have the best part of 3 to 4 months annual leave and never work weekends, late at night, early morning.

Have you ever had to drag yourself out of bed at 3am to go into work to rebuild a server because it is being accessed around the world and it is working hours in US or Australia.

Do you worry about getting fired ?

Do you ever have to work weekends and late at night because you can only do stuff out of hours as production cannot be stopped ?

Do you ever have to be on call, which means you can't have a drink or be outside of an hour from place of work ?
Yes you get allowance for that, but it often doesn't adequate cover the disruption to your life.

Do you only get 20 to 25 days annual holidays a year ?

Do you get fired if your company downsizes or as I have experienced go into liquidation?

Do you watch your private pension be decimated because the pension company invested in bank shares?

Do wonder what you will do come retirement because you don't get a lump sum and a guaranteed pension?
Yes i know some of those things are not given to newer entrants, but there are still a hell of a whack of teachers that have been in the job for years that will get them.

wirelessdude01

jmayo wrote: »

I know teachers can get the sh*tty end of the stick when it comes to having to teach big classes in overcrowded ill equipped conditions.
It is a joke that some schools have to operate out of portacabins for years on end.
And that is down to politicians, but parents and teachers should finally start forcing politicians to get their act together with regard planning.
Another debate.

I think it is especially hard to teach nowadays when kids, and indeed their parents, can be absolute tools and ar**holes.

Maybe it was that I went to school when an absolute tool and scumbag of a kid could get smack to try get him back in line rather than screw up everyone's life and not just that of a teacher.
But that is another debate.

But there is a big but.
In my experience more than a fair few teachers are while away their time, content in the knowledge that nothing will happen to them.

I have seen countless teachers (and indeed lecturers in universities) that should frankly be fired for incompetence and laziness.

Teachers who read the paper in class, teachers that mitch off to do farm work in summer, teachers who are already working on their careera in GAA coaching or politics.
Ever wonder why so many politicians and GAA coaches are teachers?
It is because they have the fooking spare time to work on those things, unlike most other people.

I hear teachers going on about how hard it is teaching a room full of kids.
Yes it is hard, but on the other hand you have the best part of 3 to 4 months annual leave and never work weekends, late at night, early morning.

Have you ever had to drag yourself out of bed at 3am to go into work to rebuild a server because it is being accessed around the world and it is working hours in US or Australia.

Do you worry about getting fired ?

Do you ever have to work weekends and late at night because you can only do stuff out of hours as production cannot be stopped ?

Do you ever have to be on call, which means you can't have a drink or be outside of an hour from place of work ?
Yes you get allowance for that, but it often doesn't adequate cover the disruption to your life.

Do you only get 20 to 25 days annual holidays a year ?

Do you get fired if your company downsizes or as I have experienced go into liquidation?

Do you watch your private pension be decimated because the pension company invested in bank shares?

Do wonder what you will do come retirement because you don't get a lump sum and a guaranteed pension?
Yes i know some of those things are not given to newer entrants, but there are still a hell of a whack of teachers that have been in the job for years that will get them.

Big whiff of ' I don't have ye but........' from this post.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There will be no public support for this. On full pay since March and staying home risk free. Hardly front line staff. I'd have more sympathy for supermarket staff, bus drivers, taxi drivers etc to be honest. Tradesmen take higher risks on a daily basis entering peoples homes not knowing if they are clean or not

You seriously think that a tradesman going into a home is taking a higher risk than a teacher going into a confined space with upwards of 30 people? That doesn't make any sense. That being said, the ASTI must be tone deaf if they think this is a good idea.

jmayo

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Big whiff of ' I don't have ye but........' from this post.

Yeah whatever.

Why not tell us how hard you have it.

Maybe if teachers had to experience going to Labour court to get statutory redundancy it might soften their cough a bit.

wirelessdude01

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah whatever.

Why not tell us how hard you have it.

Maybe if teachers had to experience going to Labour court to get statutory redundancy it might soften their cough a bit.

Whatever yourself.

Why didn't you become a teacher if we have it so easy?

The government plebs must love reading the likes of this thread. People from different sectors turning on each other. They don't even have to get the media to.do the standard divide and conquer narrative when you have flutes and idiots from both sides doing it on here for them already.

It isn't a case of who has it hardest. Putting aside the equal pay thing(which I think shouldn't have been attached to the ballot) can anyone actually argue against much of what the ASTI put on it?

Improved tracking and tracing, quicker testing, money so that if and when groups and classes have to be removed from the classroom that laptops are available so that learning and teaching can continue remotely for a short period. Surely even the most biased person can see that this benefits all. Most teachers want schools open. There are people on boards trolling as pretend teachers to try and get a reaction from some. It's not an us and you situation which you seem to be falling into

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

You seriously think that a tradesman going into a home is taking a higher risk than a teacher going into a confined space with upwards of 30 people? That doesn't make any sense. That being said, the ASTI must be tone deaf if they think this is a good idea.

The primary teacher who goes into their classroom with the same 20 or so little kids every day is going to be in a much safer environment that someone who has to work in different places and interact with different people every day - no? Maybe even having multiple call outs to different location every day.



Plus the school rooms are cleaned and sanitized every evening. There was extra funding put in place for new cleaning staff to do this.

Warbeastrior

Donald Trump wrote:

The primary teacher who goes into their classroom with the same 20 or so little kids every day is going to be in a much safer environment that someone who has to work in different places and interact with different people every day - no? Maybe even having multiple call outs to different location every day.

But who are those 20 kids seeing in the evening and then bringing in the next day?
What about secondary schools that have 1000 students in one building in cramped rooms moving about daily seeing different teachers?

A tradesman can social distance, school staff cant.

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It isn't a case of who has it hardest. Putting aside the equal pay thing(which I think shouldn't have been attached to the ballot) can anyone actually argue against much of what the ASTI put on it?

Improved tracking and tracing, quicker testing, money so that if and when groups and classes have to be removed from the classroom that laptops are available so that learning and teaching can continue remotely for a short period. Surely even the most biased person can see that this benefits all. Most teachers want schools open. There are people on boards trolling as pretend teachers to try and get a reaction from some. It's not an us and you situation which you seem to be falling into

Well I'm responding to your question rather than saying I agree or don't agree with what follows.


There is a suspicion that the demands are really just a smokescreen or excuse for something else. That the teachers unions are trying to engineer something at a time that lots of other people are struggling.

Bananaleaf

awec wrote: »

But I take issue with "we're on the same side". Do teachers not realise that what they are proposing to do, at this moment in time, is absolutely not what parents need right now. We can debate the covid issues until the cows come home, but surely we can all agree that the equal pay provision at this moment in time is genuinely ludicrous.

I just want to clarify that when I said we were on the same side, I actually meant in general. I'm going back to the roots of what the job is. I didn't mean in relation to potential strike action. I don't believe that teachers should be going on strike and if the TUI ballots us I will vote against it.

It isn't what parents need right now, but it isn't what anyone needs right now.

• Students don't need it either - they've lost enough time.
• I don't need it - I can't afford to lose the pay (not a poor me story, just need my wage)
• The wider community doesn't need it - if schools are closed, teenagers will meet up, congregate (who could blame them), they're harder to manage out of a controlled environment, whereas when they're in the classroom they're wearing masks, staying safe.

Warbeastrior

Donald Trump wrote:

There is a suspicion that the demands are really just a smokescreen or excuse for something else. That the teachers unions are trying to engineer something at a time that lots of other people are struggling.

That's unfair imo. Im a SNA in a secondary school and I'm not pushing for more money but I agree with their decision to push for safer guidelines.
We are not protected in the school as things currently are.

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

The primary teacher who goes into their classroom with the same 20 or so little kids every day is going to be in a much safer environment that someone who has to work in different places and interact with different people every day - no? Maybe even having multiple call outs to different location every day.

Plus the school rooms are cleaned and sanitized every evening. There was extra funding put in place for new cleaning staff to do this.

We've had tradespeople coming and going for jobs over the last few months. Without fail they ask for the house to be empty of people where possible. In our experience if they need to speak to someone they ask for masks to be worn. We ask the same in return.

Delivery drivers will drop at the door. No way will they bring stuff into a house.

In our experience the tradespeople and delivery drivers are reducing their risk as much as it possible and I 100% agree with it.

We get unmasked students from approximately 30 different households in our rooms.

We take our own precautions but we can't prevent an asymptomatic students breathing away.

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well I'm responding to your question rather than saying I agree or don't agree with what follows.


There is a suspicion that the demands are really just a smokescreen or excuse for something else. That the teachers unions are trying to engineer something at a time that lots of other people are struggling.

But you'll just lob it out there to stir anyway.

Bobtheman

awec wrote: »

Bananaleaf, I appreciate you're trying to take a reasonable stance on this. I am not anti-teacher. There are lots of teachers in my family of all varieties, primary, secondary, school principals. My mother in law is a teacher.

But I take issue with "we're on the same side". Do teachers not realise that what they are proposing to do, at this moment in time, is absolutely not what parents need right now. We can debate the covid issues until the cows come home, but surely we can all agree that the equal pay provision at this moment in time is genuinely ludicrous.

If teachers strike, then schools have to close. Parents will have to take time off work. For many parents, given the hardships they've already endured this year with people being furloughed or worse, this will be incredibly tough. I am not sure a message of "we're on the same side" is really what they want to hear right now.

There has been posts on here from more than one poster trying to paint teachers as the great victims here. Anyone who doesn't support them just hates teachers. It is hard to read, when you consider all those people out there who have suffered far worse than teachers have. There are people all over the country who I am sure would gladly stand in classrooms all day if they were guaranteed a salary and guaranteed to have a job in the new year. While the covid protection is likely less than perfect, the refusal to accept that teachers are very well looked after by the state is incredibly frustrating. As I said already, there are no teachers worried if they'll be signing on for the dole in 2021.

I don't blame teachers for where we find ourselves right now, but surely teachers must realise that the actions they are proposing to take are ill-advised and ill-timed.

Mother of divine jesus - get off your high horse. No strike has yet been proposed. Asti standing committee met and are still talking to the department. Stop flapping.

Bobtheman

Warbeastrior wrote: »

But who are those 20 kids seeing in the evening and then bringing in the next day?
What about secondary schools that have 1000 students in one building in cramped rooms moving about daily seeing different teachers?

A tradesman can social distance, school staff cant.

Why do you bother arguing with morons ?

Iscreamkone

How many teachers have died due to Covid since it kicked off? How many in icu? How many have caught it in the classroom?

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you'll just lob it out there to stir anyway.

Why do these threads related to teaching invariably descend to teachers childishly sniping at others.



I was simply explaining a viewpoint to you that you didn't seem to be aware of.

I explicitly said that I am just telling you the view and not saying whether it is my own view or not.



I effectively get back a "yeah, I know I am but what are you" childish response.

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why do these threads related to teaching invariably descend to teachers childishly sniping at others.



I was simply explaining a viewpoint to you that you didn't seem to be aware of.

I explicitly said that I am just telling you the view and not saying whether it is my own view or not.



I effectively get back a "yeah, I know I am but what are you" childish response.

Then what is your response to Iscreamkone above?

Bobtheman

I'd expect there will be enough given to satisfy the Asti.
But the department could not run a piss up in a brewery but let's hope I can get the same definition of a close contact inside my school as outside.
I won't comment here again as at least with kids you have some chance rather than dealing with moronic adults here who are hysterically predicting the apocalypse over a strike that has not been proposed or just want to vent. .my advice tell them to lie down for an hour. The smelling salts are on their way .