ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Smacruairi

Hubertj wrote: »

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What recommendations have public health officials made in relation to schools? Have any been ignored?

I don't know if they recommended anything to schools. I do know they recommended a country wide lockdown and that was ignored though. So you either listen to experts or you don't, which is your opinion?

Hubertj

Smacruairi wrote: »

I don't know if they recommended anything to schools. I do know they recommended a country wide lockdown and that was ignored though. So you either listen to experts or you don't, which is your opinion?

I’m not aware any recommendations in relation to schools haven’t been adhered to. Impossible for our public servants not to leak information to the media so if there was something we definitely would have heard about it. Problem in Ireland is everyone seems to think they are a public health expert but they’re not.

Smacruairi

Hubertj wrote: »

I’m not aware any recommendations in relation to schools haven’t been adhered to. Impossible for our public servants not to leak information to the media so if there was something we definitely would have heard about it. Problem in Ireland is everyone seems to think they are a public health expert but they’re not.

So do you think the govt was right to ignore the CMOs recommendation to go to level 5 and plough on?

wirelessdude01

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The equal pay argument is a strange one. they say that pre and post-2010 teachers are doing the same job so deserve equal pay. However, if that is the case then why are teachers who have been teaching for years getting more than their younger colleagues - they're doing the same work? If time service increases are justified then so is it justified to have newer teachers start on different levels also.

From my own time at school, I don't recall any long service teachers being any better than the newer ones. Also in the private sector, it is very common for someone being recruited to be on a different pay grade than another doing the same role.

See you don't even understand.

Donald Trump

Smacruairi wrote: »

I don't know if they recommended anything to schools. I do know they recommended a country wide lockdown and that was ignored though. So you either listen to experts or you don't, which is your opinion?

I personally was very annoyed when that advice was not listened to. I probably have a few posts on here somewhere to that effect. I was strongly in favour of an immediate lockdown once Hoolihan said we needed it.

Bubbaclaus

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Money where your mouth is time.

Easy to make insinuations but then hide.

Very good. Have a nice weekend.

Bass Reeves

Donald Trump wrote: »

I personally was very annoyed when that advice was not listened to. I probably have a few posts on here somewhere to that effect. I was strongly in favour of an immediate lockdown once Hoolihan said we needed it.

Figures are now showing Honlihan/NPHET was wrong. If anything they should have pushed for enforcement . It looks like 3+ would have worked. We know in ten day. We may see a surge early next week if we do that the pre L5 shopping panic. Then we should see a sharp none dive. This is about management of the problem not to piss in our pants every time there a surge. No complacency but no panic either.

blanch152

Smacruairi wrote: »

I think based on his posting record in the thread we can guess as to the intentions. So for every teacher you see taking an overly defensive position I can point towards this level of commentary.

So sticking to the facts is easiest. Do you disagree with improved contact tracing in schools, seeing as they basically gave up 2 weeks ago? This means high risk kids and teachers can attend more classes and feel safer.

Do you think that improved testing regimes should be in force to minimise school closures and to identify cases and outbreaks earlier?this means that students can feel safer, and will ultimately lead to less blanket restrictions such as placing the entire country on level 5.

I know what you think about equal pay so you don't need to answer that one.

Everything else is irrelevant is irrelevant to be honest.

How many times do you need to have it explained that schools are low-risk environments and that time and effort will be better spent focussing on where the real high risk areas are.

We need contact tracing and testing where the infections are happening, not where there is low risk. ASTI are used to throwing a strop and getting what they want.

This time the stakes are too high, and their childish demands must be faced down for all our sakes.

Smacruairi

blanch152 wrote: »

How many times do you need to have it explained that schools are low-risk environments and that time and effort will be better spent focussing on where the real high risk areas are.

We need contact tracing and testing where the infections are happening, not where there is low risk. ASTI are used to throwing a strop and getting what they want.

This time the stakes are too high, and their childish demands must be faced down for all our sakes.

Well seeing as everything else in society is shut down, pubs, shops, restaurants, it shouldn't be too hard to focus testing on schools then, should it? I mean that is if you do use the guidelines for a close contact as used in every other part of society, right?

The stakes are too high? But you just liked a post saying the CMO overreacted and level 3 was sufficient. Which is it? You liked a post saying that there is no time for panic, but now "demands must be faced down for all our sakes"?

blanch152

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well seeing as everything else in society is shut down, pubs, shops, restaurants, it shouldn't be too hard to focus testing on schools then, should it? I mean that is if you do use the guidelines for a close contact as used in every other part of society, right?

The stakes are too high? But you just liked a post saying the CMO overreacted and level 3 was sufficient. Which is it? You liked a post saying that there is no time for panic, but now "demands must be faced down for all our sakes"?

Well, let me see, hospitals, nursing homes, meat factories, illegal house parties etc. are all higher risk environments than schools, except they don’t have childish trade unions whinging and crying about it and threatening strike, they just step up to the plate when the country needs them.

It will be remembered who got on with their jobs and who didn’t when this pandemic is over.

Smacruairi

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, let me see, hospitals, nursing homes, meat factories, illegal house parties etc. are all higher risk environments than schools, except they don’t have childish trade unions whinging and crying about it and threatening strike, they just step up to the plate when the country needs them.

It will be remembered who got on with their jobs and who didn’t when this pandemic is over.

So why would house parties need to be targeted and not schools? A load of school friends in a classroom vs in a house is the same risk, no?

And for the love of God can you please tone down the rhetoric, "childish, strop, tantrum", it's up there with your Michael Bay like assertion that the stakes have never been higher (despite you thinking that restrictions are too much...)

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

So why would house parties need to be targeted and not schools?

Because they are higher risk. It not that you target house parties but rather that area involved. In general house parties were held by students going back to college. You needed at two pronged approach. Testing and tracing and Garda enforcement to prevent them going ahead.

It looking like we may have got it right fingers crossed. But the panic monger's in the ASTI want us to redirect much needed resources from these area's

blanch152

Smacruairi wrote: »

So why would house parties need to be targeted and not schools? A load of school friends in a classroom vs in a house is the same risk, no?

Not at all. Hardly expect to find them in a bedroom upstairs in close contact in a school.

Schools are controlled environments, house parties are not.

Smacruairi

blanch152 wrote: »

Not at all. Hardly expect to find them in a bedroom upstairs in close contact in a school.

Schools are controlled environments, house parties are not.

So would you have 25 kids in a bedroom? Or a front room. Or an entire house even?

PVNevin

Virus infection indoors

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

So would you have 25 kids in a bedroom? Or a front room. Or an entire house even?

Cop on. Deal with reality not with hypothetical situations. In any school you will not find children in areas the size of a bedroom or a living room. You may find 15-20 college students do n Galway, Dublin or Limerick in it 10 days ago.

You target resources at where they are needed not to where a load of scare monger's think where they should be directed to whether it's SF or ASTI.

Smacruairi

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Cop on. Deal with reality not with hypothetical situations. In any school you will not find children in areas the size of a bedroom or a living room. You may find 15-20 college students do n Galway, Dublin or Limerick in it 10 days ago.

You target resources at where they are needed not to where a load of scare monger's think where they should be directed to whether it's SF or ASTI.

Sorry when was the last time you were in a classroom, you know the average dimensions given by the DES own diagrams... So again why target house parties when you might have 25 15-18 year olds in a room 50 Square metres.

Also deal with reality? You are the one inventing house parties, where are they? When do they happen?how often. How frequently? Because I can tell you exactly when my scenario happens..

Donald Trump

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Figures are now showing Honlihan/NPHET was wrong. If anything they should have pushed for enforcement . It looks like 3+ would have worked. We know in ten day. We may see a surge early next week if we do that the pre L5 shopping panic. Then we should see a sharp none dive. This is about management of the problem not to piss in our pants every time there a surge. No complacency but no panic either.

Well we were at Level 3 at the time in early Oct. Cases bouncing around 500. People weren't taking it seriously. They said to go to level 5 for 4 weeks. We didn't move. I don't know where you are getting data that figures show they were wrong. By the time we went into lockdown the numbers were up to 1200. They announced today that the R number is back to 1.



Ideally we wouldn't need any restrictions. People would just behave responsibly all the time. But you can see plenty of evidence on threads here that there are too many selfish people. Whether that is people saying they were going on holidays over the Summer etc. or saying that they aren't going to be made wear a mask or take precautions.


Is it a viable longterm strategy? No. The same as how phoning the fire brigade should not be a strategy to protect your house when you know that the local pyromanic is setting fire to your bins every week. But if you ignore the problem for long enough and your house catches fire from the bins one time, you have to call them the fire brigade then.



To speak of the content of the thread, they did not recommend schools closing. So I do not support the teachers trying to close them. If Nephet said that they needed to close in order to contain the virus, I would say they should be closed. But they haven't. At lest to the best of my knowledge. Teachers Unions did put pressure on the wording to be changed for Level 5 if the rumours are true. I think it was changed from "schools stay open" to "depends on local conditions" or something to that effect.

blanch152

Smacruairi wrote: »

So would you have 25 kids in a bedroom? Or a front room. Or an entire house even?

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sorry when was the last time you were in a classroom, you know the average dimensions given by the DES own diagrams... So again why target house parties when you might have 25 15-18 year olds in a room 50 Square metres.

Also deal with reality? You are the one inventing house parties, where are they? When do they happen?how often. How frequently? Because I can tell you exactly when my scenario happens..

I think he was in a classroom long after you were at a house party for teenagers.

Smacruairi

blanch152 wrote: »

I think he was in a classroom long after you were at a house party for teenagers.

Sorry I don't get the point you're making here, I'll blame the 7up blanc. Am I old, he is young, I'm a shady miscreant hanging around bedrooms, he is agoraphobic, I'm a little confused!

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sorry when was the last time you were in a classroom, you know the average dimensions given by the DES own diagrams... So again why target house parties when you might have 25 15-18 year olds in a room 50 Square metres.

Also deal with reality? You are the one inventing house parties, where are they? When do they happen?how often. How frequently? Because I can tell you exactly when my scenario happens..

Because it seems children a are less likely to transmit the disease and than those that are 10...15...20...25...30..years older etc.

I am not into invention as to house parties, they have been proven to be source of infection. I have one child at college he is no saint or 😈 but the parties have slowed down according to him.

House parties were before my time 35+ years ago. As my pal the chain would say 30 years ago beware of students they will steal your beer

Smacruairi

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Because it seems children a are less likely to transmit the disease and than those that are 10...15...20...25...30..years older etc.

I am not into invention as to house parties, they have been proven to be source of infection. I have one child at college he is no saint or 😈

So basically it comes down to age and spreading. I agree young people seem far far far less affected,and that's great, I agree.however I admit that I don't have a degree in medicine or epidemiology, but I have a hard time processing why someone from Leitrim who skipped TY and is in college at 17 can spread vs someone from cavan who repeated at 19 can't. What is the physiological difference why a pubescent 12 year old can't spread vs someone who is 20.

If there is a medical reason why, and Jesus I actually am open to hearing why despite being told I'm closed minded, I'd love to hear. Honestly.

That and it's really annoying in a school setting trying to organise stuff like Croke Park tours or Dublinia and being told "no we can't take more than 15at a time", or kids arriving to school on a school bus.. But then I'm told I can't put them on a coach into town for a dub monument tour because then I'm exceeding the covid safety limit.

Believe me I share everyone's frustrations on the confusion!

Bass Reeves

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well we were at Level 3 at the time in early Oct. Cases bouncing around 500. People weren't taking it seriously. They said to go to level 5 for 4 weeks. We didn't move. I don't know where you are getting data that figures show they were wrong. By the time we went into lockdown the numbers were up to 1200. They announced today that the R number is back to 1.



Ideally we wouldn't need any restrictions. People would just behave responsibly all the time. But you can see plenty of evidence on threads here that there are too many selfish people. Whether that is people saying they were going on holidays over the Summer etc. or saying that they aren't going to be made wear a mask or take precautions.


Is it a viable longterm strategy? No. The same as how phoning the fire brigade should not be a strategy to protect your house when you know that the local pyromanic is setting fire to your bins every week. But if you ignore the problem for long enough and your house catches fire from the bins one time, you have to call them the fire brigade then.



To speak of the content of the thread, they did not recommend schools closing. So I do not support the teachers trying to close them. If Nephet said that they needed to close in order to contain the virus, I would say they should be closed. But they haven't. At lest to the best of my knowledge. Teachers Unions did put pressure on the wording to be changed for Level 5 if the rumours are true. I think it was changed from "schools stay open" to "depends on local conditions" or something to that effect.

I am mo expert, neither am I a mathematician, but you have to follow the figures.

There a minimum of a 10-20 day lag in figures. We enter L5 10 days ago. It's too early to see the result of that. At present I think.....I may be wrong but we are at present seeing the reaction to mid L3. We may see a spike now for late L 3 lockdown and then s nosedive.due to L5.

**** I could be wrong I could be an ordinary peasant.

Bass Reeves

blanch152 wrote: »

I think he was in a classroom long after you were at a house party for teenagers.

Ya maybe the wrong end of it but you have to get on with it

Smacruairi

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am mo expert, neither am I a mathematician
**** I could be wrong I could be an ordinary peasant.

I'll accept that, and join you in that sentiment. The other nonsense adjectives in the thread can do one. Just for other ppl it's a bit of a hypothetical, for me and colleagues its a reality so you understand the trepidation.

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sorry I don't get the point you're making here, I'll blame the 7up blanc. Am I old, he is young, I'm a shady miscreant hanging around bedrooms, he is agoraphobic, I'm a little confused!

ya I am old ancient even semi retired.no I am not agoraphobic. Rather I have lived and seen life.
I still see solutions where other are still looking at problems

Smacruairi

Bass Reeves wrote: »

ya I am old ancient even semi retired.no I am not agoraphobic. Rather I have lived and seen life.
I still see solutions where other are still looking at problems

Can I push you then a little for a solution? What would be your approach to schools, are you happy 100% with continuing as it always has gone as is now, would you tweak anything for level 5. would you advocate for what the asti are looking for (probs not!) just seeing what you think.

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'll accept that, and join you in that sentiment. The other nonsense adjectives in the thread can do one. Just for other ppl it's a bit of a hypothetical, for me and colleagues its a reality so you understand the trepidation.

I see you did not quite quote all the postt was not much longer

y0ssar1an22

what are the proposed strikes over (cos i'm still unclear).

teaches, what are you looking for exactly?

more PPE, more testing, more staff, more pay, all of the above. (or something else i forgot)

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

Can I push you then a little for a solution? What would be your approach to schools, are you happy 100% with continuing as it always has gone as is now, would you tweak anything for level 5. would you advocate for what the asti are looking for (probs not!) just seeing what you think.

Ya I can give you the solution. When in this life there is a problem, you can look at it as a problem, or you can look for the f@@king solution. 90% of the time you fine there was no problems, 9.999999999999999% of the time you find s workable solution. If there a problem PM me