ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Smacruairi

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Ya I can give you the solution. When in this life there is a problem, you can look at it as a problem, or you can look for a the f@@king solution. 90% of the time you fine there was no problems, 9.999999999999999% of the time you find s workable solution. If there a problem PM me

Um... OK

Smacruairi

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

what are the proposed strikes over (cos i'm still unclear).

teaches, what are you looking for exactly?

more PPE, more testing, more staff, more pay, all of the above. (or something else i forgot)

Better contact tracing which is equivalent to any other social setting, better testing for those who are deemed close contacts, provision for high risk students and teachers to operate from home, provision of IT resources for students and teachers for working from home, those who were employed post 2010 who have been reduced in wages for FEMPI to have their pay restored.

Bass Reeves

Smacruairi wrote: »

Um... OK

In Chinese danger and opportunity are the same word

y0ssar1an22

Smacruairi wrote: »

Better contact tracing which is equivalent to any other social setting, better testing for those who are deemed close contacts, provision for high risk students and teachers to operate from home, provision of IT resources for students and teachers for working from home, those who were employed post 2010 who have been reduced in wages for FEMPI to have their pay restored.

do any of your (you, the body) concerns ask for more pay?

Smacruairi

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

do any of your (you, the body) concerns ask for more pay?

You could phrase it as more pay for those employed post 2010,but really it's the fact that FEMPI was applied, and never rescinded, which is the the pay issue. I've no idea how many that affects, but the you could be looking at a swing in pay of like 8k a year at its maximum.

The pay thing though is only tacked on here as it was balloted for pre covid, so the union said the next time they were doing anything, it would be included. It's important and not going anywhere, but I'm sure if the govt went for the recommendation on health and safety it would be kicked down the road.

y0ssar1an22

Smacruairi wrote: »

You could phrase it as more pay for those employed post 2010,but really it's the fact that FEMPI was applied, and never rescinded, which is the the pay issue. I've no idea how many that affects, but the you could be looking at a swing in pay of like 8k a year at its maximum.

The pay thing though is only tacked on here as it was balloted for pre covid, so the union said the next time they were doing anything, it would be included. It's important and not going anywhere, but I'm sure if the govt went for the recommendation on health and safety it would be kicked down the road.

i'm still confused. are you looking more PPE or more money? ie: is/was there a request more money? (wage that is).

wirelessdude01

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

do any of your (you, the body) concerns ask for more pay?

You've got your answer but still digging away I see. The pay restoration is for a small cohort of us which I'm part of. We call ourselves LPTs.

PVNevin

Why does the state hide exact details of corona virus events?
It is vital for the whole of society to know the exact specifics of infections and outbreaks so that rational defence action can be taken by the populations concerned.

Why is contact tracing not invested in and organised thoroughly? It is the key to the suppression of the virus.
Indeed, if full details of corona events were published immediately then that would powerfully aid a truly efficient contact tracing regime.

The state is terrified of communities organising in their own defence, the state is terrified that the working class will organise and take control not only of the defence of the population from the virus; but overall political control of society. Above all the state must keep us under its thumb. For the continued benefit of the ruling class.

The bulldozing of children, parents and educators on the opening of schools is a prime aspect in the policy of suppressing not the virus; but information on the virus. So that 'society' and the 'economy' are returned to the 'normal' that is capitalism.

San Diego educators and students demand access to COVID-19 outbreak data
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/10/31/sdrf-o30.html

joseywhales

PVNevin wrote: »

Why does the state hide exact details of corona virus events?
It is vital for the whole of society to know the exact specifics of infections and outbreaks so that rational defence action can be taken by the populations concerned.

Why is contact tracing not invested in and organised thoroughly? It is the key to the suppression of the virus.
Indeed, if full details of corona events were published immediately then that would powerfully aid a truly efficient contact tracing regime.

The state is terrified of communities organising in their own defence, the state is terrified that the working class will organise and take control not only of the defence of the population from the virus; but overall political control of society. Above all the state must keep us under its thumb. For the continued benefit of the ruling class.

The bulldozing of children, parents and educators on the opening of schools is a prime aspect in the policy of suppressing not the virus; but information on the virus. So that 'society' and the 'economy' are returned to the 'normal' that is capitalism.

San Diego educators and students demand access to COVID-19 outbreak data
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/10/31/sdrf-o30.html

You know there was just an election where we could all. Vote right?

Iscreamkone

Off topic a little but related to equal pay. I don’t believe that teachers should have equal pay. In the real world degrees like Maths, Physics are much more valuable than Irish and Home Economics. It is becoming harder to recruit Physics teachers, especially as they are being paid along the lines of a Religion teacher. Those with more valuable qualifications should be paid more. Like in the real world.

Bubbaclaus

PVNevin wrote: »

The state is terrified of communities organising in their own defence, the state is terrified that the working class will organise and take control not only of the defence of the population from the virus; but overall political control of society. Above all the state must keep us under its thumb. For the continued benefit of the ruling class.

We live in a democracy and even had an election this year. We are all the State and we are all the ruling class.

Don't get hooked in with fancy words and big statements on alternative internet sites, it doesn't make it true.

Bobtheman

Hubertj wrote: »

In relation to ASTI, mad stuff altogether. Sad that teachers are represented by this type of people.
Teachers should receive equal pay but to push for this during a pandemic is disgusting. This is not the time for it. Teachers are being badly “advised” and “lead” if they think this is the correct path forward.
As for union representatives making statements and demands in relation to matters of public health they need to remember they are teachers and nothing more. Public health experts are responsible for public health, not teachers. Cop yourselves on

Where have you been last 2 months ? Keeping schools open is the NUMBER 1 priority. Not number 2 or 3.The government has frequently said this. Thus all resources should be available. Principal's should not have to call it because the HSE won't return its calls. I'm worried for us if after two months of this priority being all over the media - that you have not grasped this ?????

Bobtheman

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Off topic a little but related to equal pay. I don’t believe that teachers should have equal pay. In the real world degrees like Maths, Physics are much more valuable than Irish and Home Economics. It is becoming harder to recruit Physics teachers, especially as they are being paid along the lines of a Religion teacher. Those with more valuable qualifications should be paid more. Like in the real world.

Yeah this is sure to fly. Get real

wirelessdude01

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Off topic a little but related to equal pay. I don’t believe that teachers should have equal pay. In the real world degrees like Maths, Physics are much more valuable than Irish and Home Economics. It is becoming harder to recruit Physics teachers, especially as they are being paid along the lines of a Religion teacher. Those with more valuable qualifications should be paid more. Like in the real world.

So with primary are you saying that someone from let's say Pat's gets paid more than someone from Marino? That we rank the colleges to facilitate this.

What about those who went abroad to train?

Bubbaclaus

Bobtheman wrote: »

Where have you been last 2 months ? Keeping schools open is the NUMBER 1 priority. Not number 2 or 3.The government has frequently said this. Thus all resources should be available. Principal's should not have to call it because the HSE won't return its calls. I'm worried for us if after two months of this priority being all over the media - that you have not grasped this ?????

Ensuring we have sufficient capacity in hospitals is clearly the number 1 priority in a pandemic, let's not big ourselves up here too much.

Dav010

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You've got your answer but still digging away I see. The pay restoration is for a small cohort of us which I'm part of. We call ourselves LPTs.

Wirelessdude, do teachers understand that many sectors took a pay cut during the recession and that teachers are the only ones who refer to increases in pay as “pay restoration”?. Is “pay rise” banned from the vocabulary of teachers?

Mrsmum

Smacruairi wrote: »

So basically it comes down to age and spreading. I agree young people seem far far far less affected,and that's great, I agree.however I admit that I don't have a degree in medicine or epidemiology, but I have a hard time processing why someone from Leitrim who skipped TY and is in college at 17 can spread vs someone from cavan who repeated at 19 can't. What is the physiological difference why a pubescent 12 year old can't spread vs someone who is 20.

If there is a medical reason why, and Jesus I actually am open to hearing why despite being told I'm closed minded, I'd love to hear. Honestly.

That and it's really annoying in a school setting trying to organise stuff like Croke Park tours or Dublinia and being told "no we can't take more than 15at a time", or kids arriving to school on a school bus.. But then I'm told I can't put them on a coach into town for a dub monument tour because then I'm exceeding the covid safety limit.

Believe me I share everyone's frustrations on the confusion!

To see how the 17 year old college student can be a far more risker spreader than a school going 19 year old, you only have to remember your leaving cert year in comparison to your first college year, especially if away from home. It has obviously nothing to do with age, they of course can physically spread it the same but more the home control and lack of opportunity to spread your wings in dangerous ways regarding Covid. My 18 year old son is doing his LC, he is a baby and an innocent in terms of his social life in comparison to his older siblings who are not under any control and bursting to live life to the fullest because that's what they and their peers believe you do when you have finished school and are independent beings. It doesn't mean every college going student is a bigger spreader than every school going student but in a general sense they are, due to the difference in the way their lives are lived and the freedom they have and feel entitled to.

Regarding the school outings via bus not happening despite kids travelling to school by bus, it just a matter of cutting out the unnecessary layers of risk, isn't it. Same son went on a geography trip to Wicklow last week because that was deemed essential, it being part of work they had to do specifically for the LC. At the end of the day, it's in the interest of teachers and students that things are paired back to the minimum essential items only being allowed.

wirelessdude01

Dav010 wrote: »

Wirelessdude, do teachers understand that many sectors took a pay cut during the recession and that teachers are the only ones who refer to increases in pay as “pay restoration”?. Is “pay rise” banned from the vocabulary of teachers?

See you just haven't a clue of what is going on.

Donald Trump

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am mo expert, neither am I a mathematician, but you have to follow the figures.

There a minimum of a 10-20 day lag in figures. We enter L5 10 days ago. It's too early to see the result of that. At present I think.....I may be wrong but we are at present seeing the reaction to mid L3. We may see a spike now for late L 3 lockdown and then s nosedive.due to L5.

**** I could be wrong I could be an ordinary peasant.

NPHET etc. have access to other data which can give them indications such as tests from waste water and sewerage. See this link which says

BBC wrote:

Further research concluded that wastewater sampling could provide a signal of a coronavirus outbreak up to a week earlier than medical testing.

Quantum Erasure

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So with primary are you saying that someone from let's say Pat's gets paid more than someone from Marino? That we rank the colleges to facilitate this.

What about those who went abroad to train?

That doesn't equate

wirelessdude01

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Ensuring we have sufficient capacity in hospitals is clearly the number 1 priority in a pandemic, let's not big ourselves up here too much.

Politicians have said again and again that schools fully opened along with the health service being fully operational is the number one priority. They are ranked together for PR pieces but in reality one isn't given the same priority.

wirelessdude01

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

That doesn't equate

So it's just secondary teachers that should be pitted against each other?

History Queen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So it's just secondary teachers that should be pitted against each other?

Not very realistic is it? I wonder who the poster thinks should decide the relative worth of each subject?

Donald Trump

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Off topic a little but related to equal pay. I don’t believe that teachers should have equal pay. In the real world degrees like Maths, Physics are much more valuable than Irish and Home Economics. It is becoming harder to recruit Physics teachers, especially as they are being paid along the lines of a Religion teacher. Those with more valuable qualifications should be paid more. Like in the real world.

They currently don't have equal pay - even if there was only one pay scale.


The enthusiastic and fresh 25 year old physics teacher who really wants to make a difference to their students' lives and puts in huge effort will get paid a lot less than the 20 year veteran art teacher who is only "mailing it in" so to speak.



We all had those teachers - they didn't bother really covering a good chunk of the curriculum because they figured out that there was a 90% chance that topics X or Y came up in the exams every year anyway etc. so there was no point really covering topics A and B properly.



(Before the teachers on here get into a hissy fit - no, I am not saying that every teacher including you personally is like that.)

khalessi

Dav010 wrote: »

Wirelessdude, do teachers understand that many sectors took a pay cut during the recession and that teachers are the only ones who refer to increases in pay as “pay restoration”?. Is “pay rise” banned from the vocabulary of teachers?

Dave I think I can help. If you get a ball and kick it through a window and your folks take the ball off you for a week. Are they giving you a new ball or your old one back after the week?

Bubbaclaus

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Politicians have said again and again that schools fully opened along with the health service being fully operational is the number one priority. They are ranked together for PR pieces but in reality one isn't given the same priority.

They very obviously would shut down schools if the ICUs were overflowing and they thought it would help the situation. To think otherwise is just being awkward for the sake of it.

Dav010

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

See you just haven't a clue of what is going on.

You balloted for more pay for some of your members, a pay increase on a deal agreed by the Unions. That is a pay rise.

There was another thread a couple of months ago where public servants argued that the pay increase due this month wasn’t a pay increase, it was pay restoration. Do you think any other sector who took pay cuts 10 yrs ago calls wage increases during that time “pay restoration”?

I think you guys have convinced yourself that “pay restoration” sounds better than “pay rise”, the public don’t buy it.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

They currently don't have equal pay - even if there was only one pay scale.


The enthusiastic and fresh 25 year old physics teacher who really wants to make a difference to their students' lives and puts in huge effort will get paid a lot less than the 20 year veteran art teacher who is only "mailing it in" so to speak.



We all had those teachers - they didn't bother really covering a good chunk of the curriculum because they figured out that there was a 90% chance that topics X or Y came up in the exams every year anyway etc. so there was no point really covering topics A and B properly.



(Before the teachers on here get into a hissy fit - no, I am not saying that every teacher including you personally is like that.)

Yes you are correct about not having equal pay as regards the payscale but the idea is that with one payscale everyone will have the same pay at the same point in their career ie. When you have 5 years service you earn x amount regardless of whether you reach 5 years service in 2005 or 2015.

Bubbaclaus

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

See you just haven't a clue of what is going on.

Maybe you could try explain it to him in a clear manner, rather than just an inflaming repeating of "you haven't a clue" that has been happening to date.

Midlife

A lot of misconceptions in this thread.

Boards.ie is very dismissive when it comes to teachers. Essentially, the line that comes across is that...

'once you have a permanent pensionable secure job, you've a nerve to bring up any problems'

I think it doesn't matter what teachers ever say or what the issue ever is, this line will be the defacto response of many.

Looking at a couple of individual things which I feel should be considered.

1: The vast majority of teacher who voted last week have not asked for extra pay and will not receive any extra pay if all of the demands are met. The ASTI simply included it at the end as lipservice to the younger teachers they need to join/stay in the union.

2: Looking at the issues regarding potential industrial action. I'm curious what people would disagree with here.


a) Physical distancing of two metres in every classroom;

YES 2579

NO 3940


b) Free provision of N95 masks to all students and teachers;

YES 2995

NO 3646


c) Redefinition of a close contact as any person who has spent more than 15 minutes in a classroom with a positive Covid-19 case;

YES 4210

NO 2443


d) A serial testing programme for schools;

YES 3863

NO 2924


e) Guaranteed test turnaround times of 24 hours;

YES 3767

NO 2962


f) Equal pay for post-2010 teachers;

YES 4158

NO 2453


g) Guaranteed offer of a permanent contract, on full hours, for any teacher who returns to the system, either from Ireland or abroad;

YES 2292

NO 4304


h) Provision for any teacher in the high-risk category to either teach from home or have guaranteed reasonable accommodations made in school;

YES 4570

NO 2134


i) Free provision of laptops, procured centrally rather than by means of grants to schools, for students and teachers to ensure that learning can continue as much as possible if classes are required to self-isolate, or schools required to close due to Covid-19.

YES 3685

NO 2973


So they have said no to physical distancing of 2m (impossible), free masks and guaranteed jobs for people coming back from abroad.

They have demanded that...

close contacts apply to classroom settings

that a testing programme with 24hour turnaround times be put in place for schools

that high risk people are allowed teach from home

that technology is provided to student and teachers who must work from home

My question is which is the above list are the items that people feel teachers are unreasonable to ask for?