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ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues
Comments
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I think you guys have convinced yourself that “pay restoration” sounds better than “pay rise”, the public don’t buy it.Bubbaclaus wrote: »Maybe you could try explain it to him in a clear manner, rather than just an inflaming repeating of "you haven't a clue" that has been happening to date.Dave I think I can help. If you get a ball and kick it through a window and your folks take the ball off you for a week. Are they giving you a new ball or your old one back after the week?
I tried to Bubbaclaus.0 -
I do feel sorry for anyone in the same
job doing the same, or better, job for 20% less pay. But a global pandamic is not the time to strike over it - especially when the same
lot had 6 months off last year and many underperformed overwhelmingly.
But isn’t this strike supposed to be about something else?0 -
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wirelessdude01 wrote: »So with primary are you saying that someone from let's say Pat's gets paid more than someone from Marino? That we rank the colleges to facilitate this.
What about those who went abroad to train?
I've brought this up before on this thread. It seems to be a common tactic where a poster says something and someone (invariably from the teachers' perspective) comes along and tries to claim that the poster said something they didn't say and then proceeds to refute the thing they appear to have imagined that the poster said.
Poster A: "I think Kerry might have a good chance to get to the All Ireland football final in 2021"
Teachers response: "What???!!!! so you are saying that Longford are going to beat Cork in the All Ireland Hurling Final in 2021? That's ridiculous/stupid. What about the World Series in baseball. Monaghan don't even have a baseball team ya eejit"
I don't know whether it is some kind of childish tactic or whether it is rage temporarily clouding their ability to read and comprehend or whether it is a permanent thing.
The poster was clearly suggesting different pay scales based on subject. Without even giving my own opinion on that, I can point out that primary teachers basically teach the same subjects and under his idea would get paid the same. He never mentioned anything about having ranking for colleges. So I don't know how, when someone suggested different pay scales for different subjects, another poster interpreted that as different pay scales for graduates of different colleges.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »I've brought this up before on this thread. It seems to be a common tactic where a poster says something and someone (invariably from the teachers' perspective) comes along and tries to claim that the poster said something they didn't say and then proceeds to refute the thing they appear to have imagined that the poster said.
Poster A: "I think Kerry might have a good chance to get to the All Ireland football final in 2021"
Teachers response: "What???!!!! so you are saying that Longford are going to beat Cork in the All Ireland Hurling Final in 2021? That's ridiculous/stupid"
I don't know whether it is some kind of childish tactic or whether it is rage temporarily clouding their ability to read and comprehend or whether it is a permanent thing.
Donald maybe having threads in the double figures bashing teachers doesnt help. There is a history of teacher bashing on boards going back at least a decade that I am aware of. The fact that posters have referred to teachers as cnuts and bastar*ds on page 1 of this thread, with nothing done about it and have similar insults throughout the thread could indicate why certain people respond certain ways.0 -
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History Queen wrote: »Yes you are correct about not having equal pay as regards the payscale but the idea is that with one payscale everyone will have the same pay at the same point in their career ie. When you have 5 years service you earn x amount regardless of whether you reach 5 years service in 2005 or 2015.
That's just too hard for most to try and bother understanding. Far easier to take the lazy view.0 -
A lot of misconceptions in this thread.
Boards.ie is very dismissive when it comes to teachers. Essentially, the line that comes across is that...
'once you have a permanent pensionable secure job, you've a nerve to bring up any problems'
I think it doesn't matter what teachers ever say or what the issue ever is, this line will be the defacto response of many.
Looking at a couple of individual things which I feel should be considered.
1: The vast majority of teacher who voted last week have not asked for extra pay and will not receive any extra pay if all of the demands are met. The ASTI simply included it at the end as lipservice to the younger teachers they need to join/stay in the union.
2: Looking at the issues regarding potential industrial action. I'm curious what people would disagree with here.
a) Physical distancing of two metres in every classroom;
YES 2579
NO 3940
b) Free provision of N95 masks to all students and teachers;
YES 2995
NO 3646
c) Redefinition of a close contact as any person who has spent more than 15 minutes in a classroom with a positive Covid-19 case;
YES 4210
NO 2443
d) A serial testing programme for schools;
YES 3863
NO 2924
e) Guaranteed test turnaround times of 24 hours;
YES 3767
NO 2962
f) Equal pay for post-2010 teachers;
YES 4158
NO 2453
g) Guaranteed offer of a permanent contract, on full hours, for any teacher who returns to the system, either from Ireland or abroad;
YES 2292
NO 4304
h) Provision for any teacher in the high-risk category to either teach from home or have guaranteed reasonable accommodations made in school;
YES 4570
NO 2134
i) Free provision of laptops, procured centrally rather than by means of grants to schools, for students and teachers to ensure that learning can continue as much as possible if classes are required to self-isolate, or schools required to close due to Covid-19.
YES 3685
NO 2973
So they have said no to physical distancing of 2m (impossible), free masks and guaranteed jobs for people coming back from abroad.
They have demanded that...-
close contacts apply to classroom settings
-
that a testing programme with 24hour turnaround times be put in place for schools
-
that high risk people are allowed teach from home
-
that technology is provided to student and teachers who must work from home
I think the main issue the general public has is not the issues themselves, as they are all valid (apart from requesting a pay rise during a major crisis). The issue is that once again the ASTI are so quick to bring industrial action into play. Didnt they give the department just 48 hours to respond also?
There really should be some sort of quorum on those union votes really. If 60% aren't bothered enough to even vote, do you really have a mandate? I mean, as an example, just 23% of teachers in the union cared enough to vote yes for the laptops. Yet the ASTI now think they have a mandate from their members for industrial action over it, if demands are not met?0 -
Donald maybe having threads in the double figures bashing teachers doesnt help. There is a istory of teacher basjing on boards going back at least a decade that i am aware of. The fact that posters have referred to teachers as cnuts and bastar*ds on page 1 of this thread, with nothing done about it and have similar insults throughout the thread could indicate why certain people respond certain ways.
Well I don't remember who refers to others as "cnuts and bastar*ds". If they personally called me that, I might remember but I don't remember what everyone posted on the thread. I just see a retort to a post that is not logically consistent (in my view). It just seems to escalate things and rile people up.
People can have their own opinions and disagree. Others don't need to get too angry about an anonymous post on a message board. Sure that poster might have been posting "cnuts and bastar*ds" for the laugh. That's not particularly nice but sure you can ignore him0 -
Quantum Erasure wrote: »What if you never had a ball to begin with...
You mean teachers were working for free!!!0 -
Bubbaclaus wrote: »I think the main issue the general public has is not the issues themselves, as they are all valid (apart from requesting a pay rise during a major crisis). The issue is that once again the ASTI are so quick to bring industrial action into play. Didnt they give the department just 48 hours to respond also?
There really should be some sort of quorum on those union votes really. If 60% aren't bothered enough to even vote, do you really have a mandate? I mean, as an example, just 23% of teachers in the union cared enough to vote yes for the laptops. Yet the ASTI now think they have a mandate from their members for industrial action over it, if demands are not met?
Should we have the same for referendums and general elections. Most wouldn't be valid so.0 -
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Bubbaclaus wrote: »Well, if you feel like that incorrect analogy explains it to him then I don't know what to tell you.
Of course it is incorrect. People dont like when stuff is given back0 -
Bubbaclaus wrote: »I think the main issue the general public has is not the issues themselves, as they are all valid (apart from requesting a pay rise during a major crisis). The issue is that once again the ASTI are so quick to bring industrial action into play. Didnt they give the department just 48 hours to respond also?
There really should be some sort of quorum on those union votes really. If 60% aren't bothered enough to even vote, do you really have a mandate? I mean, as an example, just 23% of teachers in the union cared enough to vote yes for the laptops. Yet the ASTI now think they have a mandate from their members for industrial action over it, if demands are not met?
I think you raise a really good point about a quorum for union votes. Im in TUI but we have had some shockingly low turnouts for some votes over the years.
I'd love to hear your opinion on the fact that the IMO are backing industrial action in support of Public Health Doctors about pay and contracts. They are requesting a pay rise during a major crises but are not (as far as I'm aware) receiving the backlash that teachers are. This leads me to believe that it isn't so much about the pay (i still think asti should have left the ballot at just covid issues)but about the fact that teachers are generally perceived as being underworked and over paid.0 -
[QUOTE=Donald Trump;115116269]I've brought this up before on this thread. It seems to be a common tactic where a poster says something and someone (invariably from the teachers' perspective) comes along and tries to claim that the poster said something they didn't say and then proceeds to refute the thing they appear to have imagined that the poster said.
Poster A: "I think Kerry might have a good chance to get to the All Ireland football final in 2021"
Teachers response: "What???!!!! so you are saying that Longford are going to beat Cork in the All Ireland Hurling Final in 2021? That's ridiculous/stupid. What about the World Series in baseball. Monaghan don't even have a baseball team ya eejit"
I don't know whether it is some kind of childish tactic or whether it is rage temporarily clouding their ability to read and comprehend or whether it is a permanent thing.
The poster was clearly suggesting different pay scales based on subject. Without even giving my own opinion on that, I can point out that primary teachers basically teach the same subjects and under his idea would get paid the same. He never mentioned anything about having ranking for colleges. So I don't know how, when someone suggested different pay scales for different subjects, another poster interpreted that as different pay scales for graduates of different colleges.[/QUOTE]
I think it's a human nature kind of thing. It's like when a couple goes for counselling, they are not even listening to each other, both so het up to air their own grievances and get their point across. The point always being that they (the couple and people in general)themselves are right and the other is wrong.0 -
A lot of misconceptions in this thread.
Boards.ie is very dismissive when it comes to teachers. Essentially, the line that comes across is that...
'once you have a permanent pensionable secure job, you've a nerve to bring up any problems'
I think it doesn't matter what teachers ever say or what the issue ever is, this line will be the defacto response of many.
Looking at a couple of individual things which I feel should be considered.
1: The vast majority of teacher who voted last week have not asked for extra pay and will not receive any extra pay if all of the demands are met. The ASTI simply included it at the end as lipservice to the younger teachers they need to join/stay in the union.
2: Looking at the issues regarding potential industrial action. I'm curious what people would disagree with here.
a) Physical distancing of two metres in every classroom;
YES 2579
NO 3940
b) Free provision of N95 masks to all students and teachers;
YES 2995
NO 3646
c) Redefinition of a close contact as any person who has spent more than 15 minutes in a classroom with a positive Covid-19 case;
YES 4210
NO 2443
d) A serial testing programme for schools;
YES 3863
NO 2924
e) Guaranteed test turnaround times of 24 hours;
YES 3767
NO 2962
f) Equal pay for post-2010 teachers;
YES 4158
NO 2453
g) Guaranteed offer of a permanent contract, on full hours, for any teacher who returns to the system, either from Ireland or abroad;
YES 2292
NO 4304
h) Provision for any teacher in the high-risk category to either teach from home or have guaranteed reasonable accommodations made in school;
YES 4570
NO 2134
i) Free provision of laptops, procured centrally rather than by means of grants to schools, for students and teachers to ensure that learning can continue as much as possible if classes are required to self-isolate, or schools required to close due to Covid-19.
YES 3685
NO 2973
So they have said no to physical distancing of 2m (impossible), free masks and guaranteed jobs for people coming back from abroad.
They have demanded that...-
close contacts apply to classroom settings
-
that a testing programme with 24hour turnaround times be put in place for schools
-
that high risk people are allowed teach from home
-
that technology is provided to student and teachers who must work from home
My question is which is the above list are the items that people feel teachers are unreasonable to ask for?
Interesting how this thread is called, "ASTI members vote for Industrial action over Covid issues" and almost no one has remarked on them bringing saftety issues to the fore. Almost 120,000 parents who are concerned are on the FB site, I am sure some here but no one commenting on the safety issues of their children.0 -
History Queen wrote: »I think you raise a really good point about a quorum for union votes. Im in TUI but we have had some shockingly low turnouts for some votes over the years.
I'd love to hear your opinion on the fact that the IMO are backing industrial action in support of Public Health Doctors about pay and contracts. They are requesting a pay rise during a major crises but are not (as far as I'm aware) receiving the backlash that teachers are. This leads me to believe that it isn't so much about the pay (i still think asti should have left the ballot at just covid issues)but about the fact that teachers are generally perceived as being underworked and over paid.
I don't think the Public Health doctors situation is comparable, as there is an agreement with the Department there and the doctors held up their side (Much of the increased-productivity aspect of the agreement was even fast-tracked as a result of the pandemic), but the 60 doctors havent received the agreed title and pay that was to be implemented in July.
Basically the Department has failed to action their side of the agreement. It's a disgrace really that the ball was dropped with that one, someone clearly slipped up in the Department of Health.0 -
Bubbaclaus wrote: »I think the main issue the general public has is not the issues themselves, as they are all valid (apart from requesting a pay rise during a major crisis). The issue is that once again the ASTI are so quick to bring industrial action into play. Didnt they give the department just 48 hours to respond also?
There really should be some sort of quorum on those union votes really. If 60% aren't bothered enough to even vote, do you really have a mandate? I mean, as an example, just 23% of teachers in the union cared enough to vote yes for the laptops. Yet the ASTI now think they have a mandate from their members for industrial action over it, if demands are not met?
Ok, so the requests are valid.
That's a very different starting point from what I've read in this thread though.
Much of what you say I agree with. The quorum for votes is a good point.
Regarding the pay restoration (Again, I really feel it's important to note that most of the teachers who voted will not get an additional pay, so terming it as a payrise is a bit misleading), this is the problem the union have now. A lot of people don't give a sh1t, the numbers are dropping and the people they need to join already feel the union don't represent them.0 -
wirelessdude01 wrote: »
That's just too hard for most to try and bother understanding. Far easier to take the lazy view.History Queen wrote: »Yes you are correct about not having equal pay as regards the payscale but the idea is that with one payscale everyone will have the same pay at the same point in their career ie. When you have 5 years service you earn x amount regardless of whether you reach 5 years service in 2005 or 2015.
About 10 years ago I knew a girl who was qualified in a clinical field but for various reasons spent a year as some kind of casual/sub teacher in her local school. I don't know the exact contract details/type. She only did it for a year. She was getting paid at the lowest unqualified rate even though, because of her clinical training, she was effectively being used as a specialist teacher for the problem children with ADHD etc. (Her clinical training had been a lot of working with kids who had disabilities.)
Union fees were being deducted from her wages. There were strikes that year. The things was that many regular teachers took it as a free day off. They still got paid. She did not get paid. She was paying her dues and the Unions didn't care to reimburse her loss that they caused - even though she was getting paid at a much lower rate than the regular teachers. The unions were there for the "old boys". "I'm alright Jack - pull up that oul' ladder there".
And that was before they turned a blind eye to new entrants being shafted.
The only reason that this is surfacing now is that there have been about 10 years of low-payscale teachers coming into the system and they must now, as a group, have sufficient mass to try to influence things within the union. That system is inherently wrong though is it not - one where in order to have your union fight for equality for you then there has to be enough of you? The Unions should be there to fight for the minority that don't have that power themselves. But they aren't. They are an old-boys club that are happy once their buddies are ok. That is why I have no time for them
Edit: Just in case anyone gets their knickers in a twist, last sentence refers to Unions. Not teachers.0 -
wirelessdude01 wrote: »Should we have the same for referendums and general elections. Most wouldn't be valid so.
I feel you are disagreeing just for the sake of it now. We have quorums in the Dail and Seanad. You would need a referendum if you wanted to introduce it to the elections themselves. I don't think election voting is ever as low as 40% however.
I think it's a fair point to raise as to whether a union really does have a mandate for industrial action if 60% of the members clearly aren't overly bothered about the concerns to even cast a vote.0 -
Where have you been last 2 months ? Keeping schools open is the NUMBER 1 priority. Not number 2 or 3.The government has frequently said this. Thus all resources should be available. Principal's should not have to call it because the HSE won't return its calls. I'm worried for us if after two months of this priority being all over the media - that you have not grasped this ?????
Mod
Week off for breach of threadban0 -
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'once you have a permanent pensionable secure job, you've a nerve to bring up any problems'
This is not the problem. It would be easy to dismiss the concerns of the public to begrudgers or imagined teacher hatred.
I think what people dislike is that we are in a situation where the government has higher priorities, mostly the health service, for which they are failing to meet the necessary targets to control a novel virus. They lack resources and the ability to manage. In that field there are health professionals risking their own and their families lives with 100% confirmed symptomatic covid patients. They are struggling to to test and trace those cases, not for a lack of political will.
Meanwhile with all of this fire fighting going on, we have whomever is left in the civil service and government trying to keep the country from spiralling into economic devastation. This is where the teachers come in. Whomever is left with a career that is not lost their job, may have children and may rely on schools to unfortunately 'child mind'. Furthermore in order to avoid permanent scarring of the economy we need to continue the education production line of new human capital. It is not enough that the children get their certificates by remote learning etc, we need to know that they have at least the same level of critical thinking and numerical ability as previous generations or it will cause a structural deficit in irelands competitiveness.
Given this highly stressful situation, of limited resources and limited competence dealing with a rare event, now at this time, the teachers in the asti have decided to make things much harder, well intentioned or not. We don't have time for it.0 -
joseywhales wrote: »'once you have a permanent pensionable secure job, you've a nerve to bring up any problems'
This is not the problem. It would be easy to dismiss the concerns of the public to begrudgers or imagined teacher hatred.
I think what people dislike is that we are in a situation where the government has higher priorities, mostly the health service, for which they are failing to meet the necessary targets to control a novel virus. They lack resources and the ability to manage. In that field there are health professionals risking their own and their families lives with 100% confirmed symptomatic covid patients. They are struggling to to test and trace those cases, not for a lack of political will.
Meanwhile with all of this fire fighting going on, we have whomever is left in the civil service and government trying to keep the country from spiralling into economic devastation. This is where the teachers come in. Whomever is left with a career that is not lost their job, may have children and may rely on schools to unfortunately 'child mind'. Furthermore in order to avoid permanent scarring of the economy we need to continue the education production line of new human capital. It is not enough that the children get their certificates by remote learning etc, we need to know that they have at least the same level of critical thinking and numerical ability as previous generations or it will cause a structural deficit in irelands competitiveness.
Given this highly stressful situation, of limited resources and limited competence dealing with a rare event, now at this time, the teachers in the asti have decided to make things much harder, well intentioned or not. We don't have time for it.
Well it's not your problem maybe. don't think the hatred is imaginary though. Magnified on boards no doubt but it exists.
I agree with everything you've said. It's not the time but then there's little time bringing up coronavirus issues when the pandemic is over.
Not sure about the gvt's capabilities to introduce testing and tracing but being stuck indoors with 30 17-18 year old's at a time, it seems a fair ask.0 -
Donald Trump wrote: »About 10 years ago I knew a girl who was qualified in a clinical field but for various reasons spent a year as some kind of casual/sub teacher in her local school. I don't know the exact contract details/type. She only did it for a year. She was getting paid at the lowest unqualified rate even though, because of her clinical training, she was effectively being used as a specialist teacher for the problem children with ADHD etc. (Her clinical training had been a lot of working with kids who had disabilities.)
Union fees were being deducted from her wages. There were strikes that year. The things was that many regular teachers took it as a free day off. They still got paid. She did not get paid. She was paying her dues and the Unions didn't care to reimburse her loss that they caused - even though she was getting paid at a much lower rate than the regular teachers. The unions were there for the "old boys". "I'm alright Jack - pull up that oul' ladder there".
And that was before they turned a blind eye to new entrants being shafted.
The only reason that this is surfacing now is that there have been about 10 years of low-payscale teachers coming into the system and they must now, as a group, have sufficient mass to try to influence things within the union. That system is inherently wrong though is it not - one where in order to have your union fight for equality for you then there has to be enough of you? The Unions should be there to fight for the minority that don't have that power themselves. But they aren't. They are an old-boys club that are happy once their buddies are ok. That is why I have no time for them
Edit: Just in case anyone gets their knickers in a twist, last sentence refers to Unions. Not teachers.
Just to point out no teacher is paid or reimbursed for a strike day. And unions are made up of their membership, most roles in the union are elected.and the inequality of pay issue has been raised by asti for several years in fairness not just now.0 -
I find the whole idea of equal pay odd tbh, I believe in entry level salaries but not equal pay simply because youve tagged on the same number of years as another person. Surely we should be paying good teachers more to keep them?
That aside bringing money into the ballot was always going to muddy the waters and was a poor decision.
There is merit in some requests0 -
History Queen wrote: »Just to point out no teacher is paid or reimbursed for a strike day. And unions are made up of their membership, most roles in the union are elected.and the inequality of pay issue has been raised by asti for several years in fairness not just now.
As part of the deals that are agreed, the teachers are usually later paid for the days they were on strike. It might not be guaranteed but is it untrue to say that it is usually the case? That is my understanding although I don't know for sure so you can correct me on that. I am only recalling what was on the news after past strikes in terms of what was agreed and I seem to remember agreements that the teachers would be backpaid.
Have you yourself ever been on strike? If so, were you ever eventually paid for any of the days you were on strike?
In the case of the girl I knew, she was not entitled to that because she was only getting paid for the hours she did. She was actually better qualified than any of the teachers for the work she was doing!
And as regards not getting paid for the days they are on strike, how much are you deducted for that? Because we always see teachers, for some reason, making a point that they aren't paid for the holidays but rather that their salaries are spread out over 12 months. If you strike for one out of the 167 days, are you (temporarily) deducted 1/167 of your annual wages and benefits. Or is it more like 1/250?
In relation to the unions being elected - well that just reflects badly on any "moral" or "principle" argument of the teachers. They are happy not to push for it as long as they aren't the ones affected. Hence my remark about the unions looking after their buddies.
Edit: I found a document for TUI that stated that for the teachers striking, they would lose 1/7th of their wages and casual ones would lose the days wages.
That means that if teachers went on a permanent strike, they'd still get 198/365 of their salary! :-)0 -
This thread is concentrating on equal pay but the ASTI also brought up safety concerns because teachers have felt through experience that they were not being treated on a level playing field as other sectors since schools reopened.
Well it seems they were not wrong. School staff and students are being treated differently and they are now admitting that openly as tbh no one cares.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1031/1175008-schools-covid/
"They are right about different rules applying. Dr Collins freely acknowledged on Thursday that public health officials are being deliberately conservative when it comes to who is deemed a close contact in a school setting. When it comes to public health, she explained, it's not just about Covid."
This could explain why there is an issue around close contacts and why after 7 months no proper structure regarding online teaching for children at home.0 -
I find the whole idea of equal pay odd tbh, I believe in entry level salaries but not equal pay simply because youve tagged on the same number of years as another person. Surely we should be paying good teachers more to keep them?
That aside bringing money into the ballot was always going to muddy the waters and was a poor decision.
There is merit in some requests
Same here, maybe there is another sector where two people doing the same job employed 10 years apart have to be paid the same rate.0 -
I find the whole idea of equal pay odd tbh, I believe in entry level salaries but not equal pay simply because youve tagged on the same number of years as another person. Surely we should be paying good teachers more to keep them?
That aside bringing money into the ballot was always going to muddy the waters and was a poor decision.
There is merit in some requests
What's the definition of a good teacher? Exams, assessment results?
I saw how performance related pay tore teaching apart in England while I was over there. The collegiate nature of it disappeared in the race to get one over on the teacher next door.0 -
wirelessdude01 wrote: »What's the definition of a good teacher? Exams, assessment results?
I saw how performance related pay tore teaching apart in England while I was over there. The collegiate nature of it disappeared in the race to get one over on the teacher next door.
Welcome to the real world. That is what most people in any large organisation have to go through.0 -
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wirelessdude01 wrote: »What's the definition of a good teacher? Exams, assessment results?
I saw how performance related pay tore teaching apart in England while I was over there. The collegiate nature of it disappeared in the race to get one over on the teacher next door.
If that meant kids got better education and results, I can live with that. If you are poor at your job in other sectors, you get moved on, that is not an option when it comes to crap teachers.0
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