ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

It would be very easy.




There would be plenty that don't want it to be tracked though.............. you can make up your own mind as to why they might not want to be compared to their peers

How would performance tracking work?

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

Maybe it is. I know that a neighbour here in her 30's had to redo a few years in a few different schools before she got passed for whatever practical sign off they need. Its not 50 years ago that she was doing it!

Doesn't mean she was a bad teacher though. Going from school to school taking whatever subbing is available is pretty much the norm until you manage to get a break.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're oversimplifying.

I also think the almost forensic level of micro-management you are suggesting is unworkable, with the amount of variables involved.

No it isn't unworkable. It is simple stats. These things are already on systems. You just run your models in it and spot the outliers. Very simple. We're not talking about firing Mr. Murphy because A-student Paddy panicked a bit on the morning of his exam and got a B instead of an A. You are talking about a system that identifies outliers that would have occurred as normal aberrations with a very low probability.

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Doesn't mean she was a bad teacher though. Going from school to school taking whatever subbing is available is pretty much the norm until you manage to get a break.

I never said she was a bad teacher. It was in response to you saying that there were no more practical inspections for teachers in order to qualify. that might be true, but it wasn't changed decades ago

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it isn't unworkable. It is simple stats. These things are already on systems. You just run your models in it and spot the outliers. Very simple. We're not talking about firing Mr. Murphy because A-student Paddy panicked a bit on the morning of his exam and got a B instead of an A. You are talking about a system that identifies outliers that would have occurred as normal aberrations with a very low probability.

You are talking about a system where teachers will end up canvassing for specific classes due to them being good academically as it will ensure them a pay rise.

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it isn't unworkable. It is simple stats. These things are already on systems. You just run your models in it and spot the outliers. Very simple. We're not talking about firing Mr. Murphy because A-student Paddy panicked a bit on the morning of his exam and got a B instead of an A. You are talking about a system that identifies outliers that would have occurred as normal aberrations with a very low probability.

There are so many variables I can't see this working. A few off the top of my head,;

There are students that will never get an A no matter how hard they work through no fault of their own? How do you propose taking strategic studying in to account where LC students only focus on their best 6 subjects or the subjects they "need "? How does it work where one teacher has a group for 5th year and a different teacher has them for 6th year? How are special education needs accounted for? How is social disadvantage accounted for? How is student laziness accounted for? How is the shoehorning of teachers in to different levels accounted for?

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

I never said she was a bad teacher. It was in response to you saying that there were no more practical inspections for teachers in order to qualify. that might be true, but it wasn't changed decades ago

I'm pointing out it isn't there anymore.

What I fear is with a system like the one you would favour, is it would end up with teachers concentrating their efforts on the students most likely to get them whatever performance rated rank you think they need to achieve to keep their job, while those students who they know are never going to get anything above a C/D no matter how many hours of effort they put in, will get left behind. Hardly fair to the students.

(And I wouldn't blame the teachers for that, if that was the case).

wirelessdude01

History Queen wrote: »

There are so many variables I can't see this working. A few off the top of my head,;

There are students that will never get an A no matter how hard they work through no fault of their own? How do you propose taking strategic studying in to account where LC students only focus on their best 6 subjects or the subjects they "need "? How does it work where one teacher has a group for 5th year and a different teacher has them for 6th year? How are special education needs accounted for? How is social disadvantage accounted for? How is student laziness accounted for? How is the shoehorning of teachers in to different levels accounted for?

Would ya stop talking reality to someone who thinks that "stats" will fix it all.

Mrsmum

I don't agree with performance payments for teachers as I think it might have as many negative effects as positive eg teachers teaching in a grind school kind of way, subject choices restricted to best chance of top scores, high turnover of staff leading to low morale in schools.

eta profiling and cherry picking the children attending the school and underfunding for children with various issues also.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What I fear is with a system like the one you would favour, is it would end up with teachers concentrating their efforts on the students most likely to get them whatever performance rated rank you think they need to achieve to keep their job, while those students who they know are never going to get anything above a C/D no matter how many hours of effort they put in, will get left behind. Hardly fair to the students.

(And I wouldn't blame the teachers for that, if that was the case).

It's like if you are are chasing your end of quarter target to make your bonus, do you try and get the sure thing over the line and get your bonus or go after the one who is hmmmming and hawing about a deal but not likely.

wirelessdude01

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't agree with performance payments for teachers as I think it might have as many negative effects as positive eg teachers teaching in a grind school kind of way, subject choices restricted to best chance of top scores, high turnover of staff leading to low morale in schools.

So essentially what happened in England while I was there. New staff in the door always given the classes with low academic achievement or perceived low ability as nonon wanted them on their timetable.

History Queen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So essentially what happened in England while I was there. New staff in the door always given the classes with low academic achievement or perceived low ability as nonon wanted them on their timetable.

That would be horrendous. What an awful way to treat students (and staff).

wirelessdude01

History Queen wrote: »

That would be horrendous. What an awful way to treat students (and staff).

At the time in England all we ever heard about was 'levels'. The pressure to constantly be moving up levels was horrendous. No account made for personal or societal circumstances of the student. At the PT meetings that was all parents wanted to know. Nothing about friendships or how their child was getting on socially with their peers.

There is a reason why in England over 50% of graduates leave teaching within 4/5 years.
In my PGCE group 6 never worked as teachers after graduation and 13 of them never want to have a class of their own. Happy to just do supply as they have none of the pressure, on teach whatever they are told to do and away home. That is from a PGCE group of 49.

History Queen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

At the time in England all we ever heard about was 'levels'. The pressure to constantly be moving up levels was horrendous. No account made for personal or societal circumstances of the student. At the PT meetings that was all parents wanted to know. Nothing about friendships or how their child was getting on socially with their peers.

There is a reason why in England over 50% of graduates leave teaching within 4/5 years.
In my PGCE group 6 never worked as teachers after graduation and 13 of them never want to have a class of their own. Happy to just do supply as they have none of the pressure, on teach whatever they are told to do and away home. That is from a PGCE group of 49.

I had a vague notion of the system in England but didn't realise it was so cynical. Why would anyone want to teach there? The pastoral care side of the job is a huge reason why I teach, I'd hate to be coldly reducing my students to stats and grades for a potential pay rise.

wirelessdude01

History Queen wrote: »

I had a vague notion of the system in England but didn't realise it was so cynical. Why would anyone want to teach there? The pastoral care side of the job is a huge reason why I teach, I'd hate to be coldly reducing my students to stats and grades for a potential pay rise.

Loads of Irish secondary teachers go over because of the guaranteed jobs. Better to be working over there than the rubbish hours they are offered here. Irish qualified teachers are held in very regard in England, pity they aren't shown such regard here by the authorities who have facilitated the 'yellow packing' that's part and parcel of the system here.

Damien360

History Queen wrote: »

I had a vague notion of the system in England but didn't realise it was so cynical. Why would anyone want to teach there? The pastoral care side of the job is a huge reason why I teach, I'd hate to be coldly reducing my students to stats and grades for a potential pay rise.

My brother teaches in the UK. He got into primary school teaching via on the job training and a year of supervison of his teaching. He had no teaching qualifications but an IT one. That's why people go. Here, you couldn't find a teaching job without going the official route via college for a teaching qualification and he felt it was who you knew to get permanent position.

He was a advicot of the grade system for years. He taught in London in a primarily Pakistani school. He said that was a doddle as they really listened. His next school was outside London in a handy place again but primarily white wealthy community. Also handy as they listened. He is now principal in a school in the same area which is similar to Deis school here. That is difficult as often the kids have nothing and learning is difficult. Very different demographic in the same town. Now he detests the grade system as it doesn't suit his pupils or his staff. It is grossly unfair. It puts pressure on kids and staff that gets in the way of actually helping them to learn.

jrosen

I dont think performance monitoring needs to focus on the grades of students alone. Thats only part of it.

I guess its easier to pay them all the same rather than deal with the vast difference in quality across the board. I guess from my perspective it was more about rewarding those who go above and beyond. Perhaps its too hard to track, or perhaps it would cause too many additional problems.

Smacruairi

jrosen wrote: »

I dont think performance monitoring needs to focus on the grades of students alone. Thats only part of it.

I guess its easier to pay them all the same rather than deal with the vast difference in quality across the board. I guess from my perspective it was more about rewarding those who go above and beyond. Perhaps its too hard to track, or perhaps it would cause too many additional problems.

Also stops schools poaching teachers from other schools or teachers holding schools to ransom, socioeconomic areas of higher educational privilege developing owing to private schools paying more for teachers, "no you're not skipping my class to play Gaelic, I need a B out of you for my bonus, I don't care if its a QF" ETC. Or you can go down the rabbit hole of ruining a perfectly good system just so you can weed out the one or 2 teachers you didn't like when you were younger and punishing them.

I do agree that it is too hard to get rid of brutal teachers though. I have worked with a few and also, like everyone else, had one back in the day. Unfortunately, like in most workplaces, the brutal ones who hang on are also the most legally savvy and its impossible to get rid.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

I dont think performance monitoring needs to focus on the grades of students alone. Thats only part of it.

I guess its easier to pay them all the same rather than deal with the vast difference in quality across the board. I guess from my perspective it was more about rewarding those who go above and beyond. Perhaps its too hard to track, or perhaps it would cause too many additional problems.

What do you define as "above and beyond" though?

Is it all about academics and results?

Does extra curricular stuff be rewarded and if so why or indeed why not?Many who have young families aren't in a position to be involved. Said from the position of someone who is heavily involved in extra stuff and willingly does so in the knowledge that it is my decision and comes with nothing more than a thank you from those involved.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What do you define as "above and beyond" though?

Is it all about academics and results?

Does extra curricular stuff be rewarded and if so why or indeed why not?Many who have young families aren't in a position to be involved. Said from the position of someone who is heavily involved in extra stuff and willingly does so in the knowledge that it is my decision and comes with nothing more than a thank you from those involved.

Well if its all about academics and results as you say then wouldn't that make performance monitoring much simpler.

Smacruairi

jrosen wrote: »

Well if its all about academics and results as you say then wouldn't that make performance monitoring much simpler.

He isn't saying that though. School is more than academics. I've had kids that were great to jc, then something happens at home and then just getting them to show up twice a week was an achievement. How do you quantify that. You don't.

If you want to privatise the public service you're going to end up paying more in the long run for stuff..

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Well if its all about academics and results as you say then wouldn't that make performance monitoring much simpler.

I didn't say anything like that.

Midlife

Donald Trump wrote: »

Is that an actual question? I can't tell whether serious or not?


With performance related pay then the teachers who put in more effort and get better results, get paid more than those who do not. Those who are good at it are encouraged to stay in the profession, those who are not have an incentive to move on and let someone in who is.



As I said, you can do this statistically across students ans classes and identify outliers. If Mary has 5 students for her English class and they get 2B's 2C's and a D overall, and if John has 5 students for his English class and they get 2B's, 2C's and a D overall then you can still easily identify, for example, that Mary's students overperformed while Johns underperformed (if that is the case).

It also wouldn't be done on one class - it would be done over all your classes and over time.


Surely most teachers would have a few classes sitting state exams in any given year - no?

I'll get into it if you want but your premise shows a massive lack of understanding with regard to how results are achieved and what exactly the point of education is.

With due respect, I think you are viewing school through your own experience. I don't think you understand what really goes on in a school and what makes a good teacher.

You think it's a simple effort = results?

Would you say the same is true for say sports coaches. Are the best ones more hardworking?

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I didn't say anything like that.

Apologies I had mis read your post.

jrosen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What do you define as "above and beyond" though?

Is it all about academics and results?

Does extra curricular stuff be rewarded and if so why or indeed why not?Many who have young families aren't in a position to be involved. Said from the position of someone who is heavily involved in extra stuff and willingly does so in the knowledge that it is my decision and comes with nothing more than a thank you from those involved.

Why would extra curricular be part of it? That wouldnt make any sense to me.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Why would extra curricular be part of it? That wouldnt make any sense to me.

I just typed a few thoughts.

You never said what you mean by "above and beyond"?

jrosen

Above and beyond/exceeds expectations. You know the usual guides that are used to manage performances in other sectors.
It would need to managed on an individual basis because there are I would think far too man variables to have a one fits all rule and be over seen by the school principal/inpector but if it meant we rewarded the really great teachers its worth exploring imo.

Midlife

jrosen wrote: »

Why would extra curricular be part of it? That wouldnt make any sense to me.

It wouldn't make any sense to teachers to continue to do anything apart from focus on examinable outcomes. So extra curricular dies overnight.

Education is generally moving away from thinking its all about exams rather than towards it.

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Above and beyond/exceeds expectations. You know the usual guides that are used to manage performances in other sectors.
It would need to managed on an individual basis because there are I would think far too man variables to have a one fits all rule and be over seen by the school principal/inpector but if it meant we rewarded the really great teachers its worth exploring imo.

So really you are advocating that each student country wide should have an IEP with measurable targets!!!

So approximately 900,000 students have to be individually profiled for the purposes of a teachers pay. So in your system how many times a year are they assessed? What do we include in these assessments? How do you compensate for localised variables so that it is fair and transparent for a countrywide application?