ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Midlife

Trump, you need to listen to people who know what they are talking about.

You are advocating turning a teachers approach towards students into a 'what's in it for me' system.

Surely to go you can see how this fails.

Clearly you needed nothing from school bar results. Not everyone has the same experience. Just trust me. Some people really need the focus in school to be on something other than their results.

I would not approach a sales team and pretend that my knowledge of the classroom means I could design a system by which they could improve performance. You should consider likewise - you don't know everything.

Donald Trump

Midlife wrote: »

Trump, you need to listen to people who know what they are talking about.

You are advocating turning a teachers approach towards students into a 'what's in it for me' system.

Surely to go you can see how this fails.

Clearly you needed nothing from school bar results. Not everyone has the same experience. Just trust me. Some people really need the focus in school to be on something other than their results.

I would not approach a sales team and pretend that my knowledge of the classroom means I could design a system by which they could improve performance. You should consider likewise - you don't know everything.

You obviously just can't understand the concept of what I am saying.



If you are an outlying underperformer, then data can be used to identify that.

If you aren't having any measurable impact, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career?


You're not all Robin Willliams in Dead Poets Society. Again, if you think the process is somehow magical or mystical, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career.



If your job is to impart mathematical knowledge to students and your LC class doesn't know even how to do basic simultaneous equations then you can't just say "oh, yeah, but eh, sure didn't I inspire them holistically"

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

You obviously just can't understand the concept of what I am saying.



If you are an outlying underperformer, then data can be used to identify that.

If you aren't having any measurable impact, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career?


You're not all Robin Willliams in Dead Poets Society. Again, if you think the process is somehow magical or mystical, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career.



If your job is to impart mathematical knowledge to students and your LC class doesn't know even how to do basic simultaneous equations then you can't just say "oh, yeah, but eh, sure didn't I inspire them holistically"

Keep digging.

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

You obviously just can't understand the concept of what I am saying.



If you are an outlying underperformer, then data can be used to identify that.

If you aren't having any measurable impact, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career?


You're not all Robin Willliams in Dead Poets Society. Again, if you think the process is somehow magical or mystical, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career.



If your job is to impart mathematical knowledge to students and your LC class doesn't know even how to do basic simultaneous equations then you can't just say "oh, yeah, but eh, sure didn't I inspire them holistically"

Sorry what do u actually do for a living? Because you've had several people, teachers and parents, tell you the issues with your idea. It's not that we don't understand your concept, we understand it quite well.

You have principals, inspectors, parents all looking at your "outliers" already. The leaving cert this year tried to use stats and it made a balls of it for everyone. You've reduced schools to exams and performance when every school charter says school is more than that,and indeed the statements of learning for schools and junior and leaving cert key skills advocate that you move away from pure academic data.

But you know best and we all can't understand your plan apparently. You are looking to wreck a fine system... Why,what is your overall goal here? To sack teachers?

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

You obviously just can't understand the concept of what I am saying.



If you are an outlying underperformer, then data can be used to identify that.

If you aren't having any measurable impact, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career?


You're not all Robin Willliams in Dead Poets Society. Again, if you think the process is somehow magical or mystical, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career.



If your job is to impart mathematical knowledge to students and your LC class doesn't know even how to do basic simultaneous equations then you can't just say "oh, yeah, but eh, sure didn't I inspire them holistically"

Yeah we all think we are Robin Williams:rolleyes:
This is the problem someone who has no idea how schools work trying to apply his work model to it. Tell me do you put as much time into telling your gp or surgeon how to treat you?

You have professionals telling you that your model does not work in our sector and you just dismiss them. If that is your work model I am glad we dont have as you do not listen. Every job involves learning and listening and obviously these are areas for you to improve on.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

Yeah we all think we are Robin Williams:rolleyes:
This is the problem someone who has no idea how schools work trying to apply his work model to it. Tell me do you put as much time into telling your gp or surgeon how to treat you?

You have professionals telling you that your model does not work in our sector and you just dismiss them. If that is your work model I am glad we dont have as you do not listen. Every job involves learning and listening and obviously these are areas for you to improve on.

Data doesn't lie. If you have something to fear from it identifying outlying underperformers then you are entitled to have that emotion.


If you don't understand stats, that's also fine. But you can't tell me "it doesn't work" when you don't understand what "it" is.

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Data doesn't lie. If you have something to fear from it identifying outlying underperformers then you are entitled to have that emotion.


If you don't understand stats, that's also fine. But you can't tell me "it doesn't work" when you don't understand what "it" is.

Data doesn't lie but it can be highly highly open to interpretation. Just because a kid got 7h1s doesn't mean they had amazing teachers. If you work with data you know that unless you have identified, qualified and quantified the various influences on the data, it is essentially worthless.

You say outliers, so what percentage of students in a class have to under or over perform for the class to be an outlier? By what percentage are they under or over performing to be counted in the above?

What is it you do for a living again?

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Data doesn't lie. If you have something to fear from it identifying outlying underperformers then you are entitled to have that emotion

If you don't understand stats, that's also fine. But you can't tell me "it doesn't work" when you don't understand what "it" is.

I'm not talking about fingerpainting or mala here. I'm talking stats and data. I'll come to the teachers if I have professional questions about the former.

You made me laugh there, thanks.

Of course data lies, like anything it can be altered to suit situations and is dependent on the initial bias as well as other factors. We see that all the time. Darrell Huff even wrote a book called How to lie with Statistics and used statistics during his time as a tobacco lobbyist. You see it all the time in politics. It may be 60 years old or so but still relevant.

Thank you for the mala comment as it serves to indicate how small minded you are, that you are incapabale of realising that teachers these days no longer roll off the primary secondary colleges factory line, but have other qualifications, professional and academic and life experience.

Btw you should try playing with mala it would help with your stress and inferiority complex

Midlife

Donald Trump wrote: »

You obviously just can't understand the concept of what I am saying.



If you are an outlying underperformer, then data can be used to identify that.

If you aren't having any measurable impact, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career?


You're not all Robin Willliams in Dead Poets Society. Again, if you think the process is somehow magical or mystical, then perhaps it is time to consider changing career.



If your job is to impart mathematical knowledge to students and your LC class doesn't know even how to do basic simultaneous equations then you can't just say "oh, yeah, but eh, sure didn't I inspire them holistically"

No I understand, it's just wrong.

Step 1: Firstly get all the kids with special needs out of my class. Far to much time for very little improvement in terms of end grades. They're in the wrong subject. And jesus don't expect me to try integrate someone with ASD or downsyndrome. How much of my time would that take?
Step 2: Put the fear of God into the kids. My main goal is that they're all spending hours studying and getting private grinds in this subject by Christmas in 5th year.
Step 3: Forget about putting any work into those RSE and SPHE classes. I know some kids really need it but it's not examinable so there's nothing in it for me.
Step 4: refuse to take students who were badly taught for junior cert. Screw that, they're behibd and I'm not blowing my bonus trying to get them to catch up to where they should already be.

There's many more I'd say. Thats just off the top of my head. Your plan is awful. Just plain awful.

Dav010

Train wreck thread. Goes to show how poorly thought out, and poorly understood the teachers stance is. All the public will see is people who work in stable jobs with enviable benefits, threatening to strike because they don’t feel safe and want more money, pretty much how all workers feel right now, but aren’t threatening strike action.

Unless you guys get your PR sorted out, I think the public will not support you and there is a real risk that they will actually be against you. On another thread, teachers arrogantly dismissed the importance of public support, but when your actions directly effect their livelihoods at this crucial and very stressful time, I think you are in for a rough ride.

Wanderer78

Why doesn't the private sector strive for what the public sector has?

History Queen

ASTI President on Newstalk yesterday outlining her members stance:

https://www.newstalk.com/news/teachers-strike-safety-concerns-schools-last-resort-1098478?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604157536

Dav010

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Why doesn't the private sector strive for what the public sector has?

The public sector is not run like a private business where profit and productivity are essential for secure employment and wages. Therefore PSs receive benefits that private companies simply cannot give their employees.

Bubbaclaus

History Queen wrote: »

ASTI President on Newstalk yesterday outlining her members stance:

https://www.newstalk.com/news/teachers-strike-safety-concerns-schools-last-resort-1098478?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604157536

"She added that she thought parents had been very appreciative of teachers who taught students online when schools closed in March."

My housemate teacher, who spent most of the first 3 months of lockdown watching daytime tv in her pyjamas will be delighted to hear of the appreciation.

Benicetomonty

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

"She added that she thought parents had been very appreciative of teachers who taught students online when schools closed in March."

My housemate teacher, who spent most of the first 3 months of lockdown watching daytime tv in her pyjamas will be delighted to hear of the appreciation.

Your housemate was in the minority. There are lazy and opportunistic workers in every job, public or private sector.

Dav010

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Your housemate was in the minority. There are lazy and opportunistic workers in every job, public or private sector.

As you stated that the poster’s housemate is in the minority, what percentage of teachers taught online consistently during the period schools were closed March to June?

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

As you stated that the poster’s housemate is in the minority, what percentage of teachers taught online consistently during the period schools were closed March to June?

Is there really a need to drag this up? Surely we can all agree some were good some bad and leave it at that. No point in either side trying to prove there were more good teachers than bad or vice-versa. There isn't a way of proving it. All evidence on both sides is anecdotal.

Dav010

History Queen wrote: »

Is there really a need to drag this up? Surely we can all agree some were good some bad and leave it at that. No point in either side trying to prove there were more good teachers than bad or vice-versa. There isn't a way of proving it. All evidence on both sides is anecdotal.

Yes it is anecdotal, so claiming that the majority of teachers were providing online tuition is being disingenuous. There are 5 secondary schools in the town where we live, we know parents/kids from all, in June of this year there were common themes to all school related conversations, whether the leaving cert would go ahead, and how the kids had been abandoned by their schools with little or no tuition since schools closed in March.

So please, don’t wrap the flag around yourselves and claim you did it all for the kids and Ireland.

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes it is anecdotal, so claiming that the majority of teachers were providing online tuition is being disingenuous. There are 5 secondary schools in the town where we live, we know parents/kids from all, in June of this year there were common themes to all school related conversations, whether the leaving cert would go ahead, and how the kids had been abandoned by their schools with little or no tuition since schools closed in March.

So please, don’t wrap the flag around yourselves and claim you did it all for the kids and Ireland.

I know what I did. I did my best and completed the curriculum with all of my groups except my second years where I didn't get the last chapter finished. I'm not going to defend the lazy. But going in to a back and forth about who did what will do nothing only frustrate us all.

Can you prove there were more bad than good? No. It's a pointless exercise.

Dav010

History Queen wrote: »

I know what I did. I did my best and completed the curriculum with all of my groups except my second years where I didn't get the last chapter finished. I'm not going to defend the lazy. But going in to a back and forth about who did what will do nothing only frustrate us all.

Can you prove there were more bad than good? No. It's a pointless exercise.

Taking a sample of the five schools in a medium sized town not far from Dublin, yes I would say that I can prove that there was no consistent online tuition during those months. Is that indicative of schools nationwide? hard to know.

I think it is self serving of you, and indeed of your profession to ignore sentiment relating to last years leaving cert debacle. While it was of course not of your making, parents will be rightly concerned that there will be a rerun of the miserable effort to teach online that we saw last year.

Benicetomonty

Dav010 wrote: »

The public sector is not run like a private business where profit and productivity are essential for secure employment and wages. Therefore PSs receive benefits that private companies simply cannot give their employees.

So whats your solution? Run education as if it was a business trying to generate a profit? I think Midlife fairly skillfully outlined what that would look like 3 or 4 posts ago and how ludicrous such an approach would actually be.

This idea that private sector cannot strive for basic benefits and job security is a cop out. It isnt public servants (certainly it isnt teachers) that have salaries in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. It isnt teachers that own multiple homes in a bunch of different countries. It isnt teachers that are squirreling away money in the Caymen Islands. The vast majority of the money made by public servants will go straight back into the Irish economy.

Obviously that is also the case for the majority of owners of and workers within SMEs as well. But rather than supporting each other in pursuit of a more equitable society, some people choose to target workers who have far more in common with them instead of those who are the true source of their ire, the multi multi millionaires who could actually make a legitimate difference if they were so inclined. The begrudgery never seems to go the other way around, quite the opposite. For example, the ASTI was unquestioning in its support of the Debenhems workers earlier this year. Why is that?

I have 2 siblings working in the private sector. Both make more money than I do. Both have more scope for promotion than I do. Both have the chance to obtain bonuses at certain times of the year. Do I envy them sometimes? Sure. But the truth is, if I really wanted similar jobs and conditions, there is literally nothing stopping me from going out and having the same for myself. If teachers' pay and conditions are truly so attractive as to make you comment about them ad nauseam on this forum, surely you should consider joining the profession?

Regardless, both of my siblings will receive a sympathetic ear if they wish to bemoan inevitable difficulties arising from their work or conditions to me. However, the reality is that nobody would be doing their jobs if there wasnt something in it for them, whether it's the income or the lifestyle or a combination of both. And like teachers have been so frequently told on this thread and elsewhere, if you dont like aspects of the work, you can always leave and do something else.

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Taking a sample of the five schools in a medium sized town not far from Dublin, yes I would say that I can prove that there was no consistent online tuition during those months. Is that indicative of schools nationwide? hard to know.

I think it is self serving of you, and indeed of your profession to ignore sentiment relating to last years leaving cert debacle. While it was of course not of your making, parents will be rightly concerned that there will be a rerun of the miserable effort to teach online that we saw last year.

No one thinks there was consistant online tuition across the country. I don't understand what you mean by the second paragraph?

Benicetomonty

Dav010 wrote: »

As you stated that the poster’s housemate is in the minority, what percentage of teachers taught online consistently during the period schools were closed March to June?

I havent a clue. How would I or anybody know the answer to that?

What I do know is that parents have an avenue to register a grievance if they feel it's warranted. If it's legitimate and pursued, a teacher can be removed from the Teaching register. All very transparent unlike anecdotal hearsay.

Dav010

Benicetomonty wrote: »

So whats your solution? Run education as if it was a business trying to generate a profit? I think Midlife fairly skillfully outlined what that would look like 3 or 4 posts ago and how ludicrous such an approach would actually be.

This idea that private sector cannot strive for basic benefits and job security is a cop out. It isnt public servants (certainly it isnt teachers) that have salaries in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. It isnt teachers that own multiple homes in a bunch of different countries. It isnt teachers that are squirreling away money in the Caymen Islands. The vast majority of the money made by public servants will go straight back into the Irish economy.

Obviously that is also the case for the majority of owners of and workers within SMEs as well. But rather than supporting each other in pursuit of a more equitable society, some people choose to target workers who have far more in common with them instead of those who are the true source of their ire, the multi multi millionaires who could actually make a legitimate difference if they were so inclined. The begrudgery never seems to go the other way around, quite the opposite. For example, the ASTI was unquestioning in its support of the Debenhems workers earlier this year. Why is that?

I have 2 siblings working in the private sector. Both make more money than I do. Both have more scope for promotion than I do. Both have the chance to obtain bonuses at certain times of the year. Do I envy them sometimes? Sure. But the truth is, if I really wanted similar jobs and conditions, there is literally nothing stopping me from going out and having the same for myself. If teachers' pay and conditions are truly so attractive as to make you comment about them ad nauseam on this forum, surely you should consider joining the profession?

Regardless, both of my siblings will receive a sympathetic ear if they wish to bemoan inevitable difficulties arising from their work or conditions to me. However, the reality is that nobody wouldnt be doing their jobs if there wasnt something in it for them, whether it's the income or the lifestyle or a combination of both. And like teachers have been so frequently told on this thread and elsewhere, if you dont like aspects of the work, you can always leave and do something else.

State run education should not be profit driven, and the private sector does have basic benefits which are protected by legislation. Permanent employees having a guaranteed job/wages/pay during sick leave etc is not “basic benefits”, they are combined benefits no private sector employer can provide their employees.

Few workers have salaries in the hundreds of thousands, many of the people who would be affected by your strike would be on minimum wage and below the living wage, again it shows a complete lack of understanding to suggest that people earning hundreds of thousands are representative of the average employee.

It isn’t begrudgery, I don’t begrudge you what you have, I don’t know anyone who does, it’s when you put yourself above everyone else and put on the “poor me” that gets up people’s noses more than Covid.

Dav010

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I havent a clue. How would I or anybody know the answer to that?.

And yet you posted that the posters housemate was in the minority. You don’t know that.

Benicetomonty

Dav010 wrote: »

State run education should not be profit driven, and the private sector does have basic benefits which are protected by legislation. Permanent employees having a guaranteed job/wages/sick leave etc is not “basic benefits”, they are benefits no private sector employer can provide their employees.

"No private sector employer"? Really? Dont think thats true. And why cant they be provided universally? You seem to regard such benefits as utopian. Id regard them as basic. If the company is not in a position to provide them, maybe it shouldnt be regarded as viable?

Few workers have salaries in the hundreds of thousands, many of the people who would be affected by your strike would be on minimum wage and below the living wage, again it shows a complete lack of understanding to suggest that people earning hundreds of thousands are representative of the average employee.

I made this clear in my post. Choosing not to see that undermines your position. People of all incomes are affected by strikes.

It isn’t begrudgery, I don’t begrudge you what you have, I don’t know anyone who does, it’s when you put yourself above everyone else and put on the “poor me” that gets up people’s noses more than Covid.

It is begrudgery. If nothing else, you begrudge me my right to publicly air a grievance that I have with my conditions of employment under the grounds of health and safety. And you begrudge me the right, as is afforded to every worker, to withdraw my labour if I see fit to do so.

Benicetomonty

Dav010 wrote: »

And yet you posted that the posters housemate was in the minority. You don’t know that.

Yes I do. There has been no report of 20,000 odd teachers due up against the teaching council on the back of widespread parental complaints re their underperformance during lock down. That's how I know.

khalessi

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes it is anecdotal, so claiming that the majority of teachers were providing online tuition is being disingenuous. There are 5 secondary schools in the town where we live, we know parents/kids from all, in June of this year there were common themes to all school related conversations, whether the leaving cert would go ahead, and how the kids had been abandoned by their schools with little or no tuition since schools closed in March.

So please, don’t wrap the flag around yourselves and claim you did it all for the kids and Ireland.

This is ancedotal, you have no evidence of what the teachers in those schools were doing. Regarding leaving certs, the majority of their course work would have been finished and these kids should have been able to study independently without hand holding for the exams that didnt happen. It is what they would have been doing in colloege fromSeptember or whereven they choose to go next. For those teachers that were teaching, the minute the Dept announced no exams the kids didn't bother attending classes online.

I know this will shock you but some kids didn't bother attending online and just said that the teachers were not teaching. What a surprise when I rang around and spoke to the parents only to be told little Johnny or Jane had said I had no classes online and these were just 6th class kids, how inventive could secondary be I wonder? I had parents telling me they were trustung their kids to do the work and to attend the lessons.

There is a whole other thread dedicated to this and eventually it was agreed that there were some excellent teachers, some ok and some downright woeful. I was online everyday, was also contactable by phone for those who needed it and I regularly rang kids if they said they were stuck to explain it over the phone. However my kids teacher did not do it that way and I wasn't impressed and said so when the school asked for a review.

Dav010

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Yes I do. There has been no report of 20,000 odd teachers due up against the teaching council on the back of widespread parental complaints re teachers' underperformance during lock down. That's how I know.

Wow. That really is astonishing. The fact that it wasn’t reported is now fact that there was no grievance.

Have you considered that parents accepted these are not normal times , didn’t blame individual teachers directly so didn’t want to make an official complaint?

Benicetomonty

Dav010 wrote: »

Wow. That really is astonishing. The fact that it wasn’t reported is now fact that there was no grievance.

Have you considered that parents accepted these are not normal times , didn’t blame individual teachers directly so didn’t want to make an official complaint?

Nope. I would have an idea of what constitutes a reasonable effort at remote teaching, and if I thought a teacher fell way short of that, Id get in touch. If their explanation wasnt satisfactory, Id escalate to the Principal and beyond if necessary. Why wouldnt you blame an individual teacher? Seems fairer than targeting all or the majority of them, like youre doing.