ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

I know what I did. I did my best and completed the curriculum with all of my groups except my second years where I didn't get the last chapter finished. I'm not going to defend the lazy. But going in to a back and forth about who did what will do nothing only frustrate us all.

Can you prove there were more bad than good? No. It's a pointless exercise.

You're not going to defend them..............yet you are dead set against a simple system that could measure and identify the worst.


Do you know any of these lazy teachers?



If you do all this work that you do compared to them, do your kids get relatively better results? Can you objectively state so or is it all imagined in your head?



If you can't measure the difference between your outcomes then are you not wasting your time struggling with the extra effort? Perhaps it is a sign that the profession is not for you if it takes you a lot more work to achieve the same outcomes as the one who sits on her couch in her pyjamas watching netflix for 3 months.




As far people apparently complaining about teachers - let's be honest - most kids like the lazy teachers because they have less work to do. How many kids are going to their parents complaining "Mr. Murphy didn't give us any homework this weekend"

khalessi

Here is a question for the parents here.

How do you feel that the Health service freely admit that they have been choosing consevatively the people to test in schools despite for weeks telling us all we were mad in the head basically and there was nothing to see in schools?

"At Thursday's HSE briefing, public health consultant Dr Abigail Collins acknowledged something that some school staff and parents have suspected of late: that when it comes to testing in schools, and who is or isn't regarded as a close contact, different rules apply.

They are right about different rules applying. Dr Collins freely acknowledged on Thursday that public health officials are being deliberately conservative when it comes to who is deemed a close contact in a school setting. "

Does this worry any of you?

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

You're not going to defend them..............yet you are dead set against a simple system that could measure and identify the worst.


Do you know any of these lazy teachers?



If you do all this work that you do compared to them, do your kids get relatively better results? Can you objectively state so or is it all imagined in your head?



If you can't measure the difference between your outcomes then are you not wasting your time struggling with the extra effort? Perhaps it is a sign that the profession is not for you if it takes you a lot more work to achieve the same outcomes as the one who sits on her couch in her pyjamas watching netflix for 3 months.




As far people apparently complaining about teachers - let's be honest - most kids like the lazy teachers because they have less work to do. How many kids are going to their parents complaining "Mr. Murphy didn't give us any homework this weekend"

Your system won't work. You won't accept that. I do know lazy teachers and not all of them get crap results. It isn't just about results for the umpteenth time.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

Here is a question for the parents here.

How do you feel that the Health service freely admit that they have been choosing consevatively the people to test in schools despite for weeks telling us all we were mad in the head basically and there was nothing to see in schools?

"At Thursday's HSE briefing, public health consultant Dr Abigail Collins acknowledged something that some school staff and parents have suspected of late: that when it comes to testing in schools, and who is or isn't regarded as a close contact, different rules apply.

They are right about different rules applying. Dr Collins freely acknowledged on Thursday that public health officials are being deliberately conservative when it comes to who is deemed a close contact in a school setting. "

Does this worry any of you?

Those are choices and they are the experts and they are making those choices for good reasons.


If they say schools should close then schools should close. If they say they should stay open then they should stay open. If they decide that they can be "conservative" with their definition of "close contact" in that environment, then they are doing that for good reason.



It comes across as scaremongering in order to try to have the schools shut again. If the experts are wrong, it won't be long being shown up.

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Those are choices and they are the experts and they are making those choices for good reasons.


If they say schools should close then schools should close. If they say they should stay open then they should stay open. If they decide that they can be "conservative" with their definition of "close contact" in that environment, then they are doing that for good reason.



It comes across as scaremongering in order to try to have the schools shut again. If the experts are wrong, it won't be long being shown up.

Who said anything about closing schools? You are scaremongering by mentioning it.

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

Your system won't work. You won't accept that. I do know lazy teachers and not all of them get crap results. It isn't just about results for the umpteenth time.

You can tell when these guys start going on about "lazy teachers" they're clutching at straws.

What's the thread about again ?
Ballot for Covid related issues.
Where has the Donald gone with this thread title.

Never hear them giving out about lazy nurses, doctors, dentists, bus drivers... accountants, plumbers, builders, tilers, engineers. Of which I've had bad experiences of the lot. Come to think of it I can't remember any of my own teachers who id say we're lazy.

Any job you'll get people with a lazy underperforming streak.

But any issues teachers air it'll be back to this trope to sidetrack the thread. Same old play:
I've a friend,relative who is a lazy teacher.
I've had a lazy teacher.
Every other job has insurances against underperforming.

So no, we don't need proper contact tracing and adequate supply of equipment in schools etc ... Because Joe, Joe, Joe , because of lazy teachers Joe .... :pac:

Bananaleaf

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you do all this work that you do compared to them, do your kids get relatively better results? Can you objectively state so or is it all imagined in your head?



If you can't measure the difference between your outcomes then are you not wasting your time struggling with the extra effort? Perhaps it is a sign that the profession is not for you if it takes you a lot more work to achieve the same outcomes as the one who sits on her couch in her pyjamas watching netflix for 3 months.

While I appreciate it might seem that black and white, I'd just like to point out that often times the crap teachers get just as good results because the parents of kids in their class have had to invest hundreds or more in grinds. Have seen it happen year on year.

It isn't that simple to assess a teacher's performance based on the end result, unless you can somehow do away with private grinds teachers and schools.

To be clear - I am not saying the above is acceptable, I'm just telling you what happens.

Dav010

Treppen wrote: »

.

Never hear them giving out about lazy nurses, doctors, dentists, bus drivers... accountants, plumbers, builders, tilers, engineers. Of which I've had bad experiences of the lot. Come to think of it I can't remember any of my own teachers who id say we're lazy.

Any job you'll get people with a lazy underperforming streak.
:

Look around boards, you will find threads complaining about all the above, perhaps not about them being lazy though, any in the private sector would either be self employed or employed, laziness tends not to be tolerated to much in those professions listed.

Bass Reeves

Benicetomonty wrote: »

It is begrudgery. If nothing else, you begrudge me my right to publicly air a grievance that I have with my conditions of employment under the grounds of health and safety. And you begrudge me the right, as is afforded to every worker, to withdraw my labour if I see fit to do so.

No it's not begrudgers. Government has decided that schools staying open is a priority. The same is true across Europe. While unions and workers have the right to give there views on how it is done at some stage decision have to be made. Government also consulted other experts and NHEPT. It set the criteria and has made a huge amount of extra resources in the form of teachers and temporary classrooms

At the end of it this is not a normal situation, you can look at it similar to the emergency during WW2. Different but an one in 50 year event. There is no template. Government has decided it priorities and schools staying open is one of them. None of the other two teaching unions the INTO and the TUI decided to ballot on strike action in the middle of an emergency. The ASTI did.

All data is showing that the risk category in schools is low with low incidence and low transmission rates. Online teaching is not an option. If Student go home the lower academic student and there from deprived area will suffer the most. Frontline workers like nurses , doctors and Gardai will be required to put day care in place for there children. Children who's parents work may be unable to access online education during the day. This would put a huge burden on these people.

The Government entered L5 lockdown to ensure that schools stay open. Once again the ASTI has miss read a situation and is leading teachers into an industrial dispute that the cannot or will not win. They have no support from other teachers unions and it a form of sabotage during a national emergency.

The main begrudgery that comes across in this thread is whereby teachers look out at other workers who earn more than them. In general over the years I have come across a cohort of teachers who are balanced individuals, they have a chip on both shoulders. The staff canteen seems to engender an attitude that thinks teachers are hard done by. I have come across some great balanced teachers during my life. However there is also a cohort that have become radicalised who look begrudgingly at former students who have done well for themselves. They also see people who they consider of lower academic ability who have achieved success through hard work.

Teachers need to get.on with it and stop looking over the fence at success and inwardly at what they consider lack of success. Success in financial endeavours costs, in any situation not possible but it requires hard work. Very few successful people get handed anything they gain it by risk and hard work.

Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world. I do not begrudge it to them. My daughter is one. But neither do I think that teaching is entitled to.more of our tax money

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

Your system won't work. You won't accept that. I do know lazy teachers and not all of them get crap results. It isn't just about results for the umpteenth time.

You are talking about false negatives.



Again, I am not talking about finding those average or below average ones. I'm talking about the outlier ones. By definition some would not be detected. But some would. You can go on about BOM and principals etc. but they can still act as normal. This would simply be an additional input.



You will select them on some level of confidence. We can pick a high level of confidence. The higher the level of confidence, the less outliers you detect, but the more certain that you can be that they are actually outliers.



Let me give you an analogy. Your school, for some hypothetical reason, decides teachers have to pass a fitness test. All teachers will have to "run/walk" 1 mile. They want to identify the really really unfit ones. They determine that the bare minimum standard should be 15 minutes but they set the cut off higher in order to allow for fluctuations. So they set the cut off time to be 30 minutes.
If you are an average person, you are not going to have to be going out and training and making special effort to meet that cut-off.

If someone can't "run/walk" a mile in 30 minutes then we can be fairly sure that there is something wrong (assume they have working legs).



It is not going to catch all the unfit ones because the one that hits 29 minutes isn't exactly going to be worrying Usain Bolt about his records. We all understand that not failing the test does not mean you are fit but we can be confident that failing it means you are not!

If you reduce the limit to 20 minutes then you will catch more of the unfit ones. But you also increase the chances that a normally bare minimum one had a bad day and some bad luck and came in at 20:01. So you are catching more of the unfit ones, but you have some false positives. So the general idea is to keep to a high level of confidence to identify the really bad ones - even though some other bad ones might slip through the net. It is still better that not having that net!


So in my analogy, I am not saying that you line up all the teachers in your school and the slowest 5% get fired. Some teachers appear to think that is what I am saying.

All I am saying is that you look for patterns that should not have come from a bare-minimum standard teacher, and you base this off a high level of confidence. In other words, it didn't happen by chance or bad luck. If you yourself are above the bare-minimum standard then you are even further away from this happening by chance.



I can't see why anyone would be against this in principle.

Bananaleaf

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world. I do not begrudge it to them. My daughter is one. But neither do I think that teaching is entitled to.more of our tax money

Genuine question - if teachers weren't 'paid with our tax money' would you mind them getting more money/ pay restoration/a pay rise (any of these)?

I'm just talking in general terms, not in relation to the proposed strike action, which I am not in favour of.

Donald Trump

Treppen wrote: »

You can tell when these guys start going on about "lazy teachers" they're clutching at straws.

What's the thread about again ?
Ballot for Covid related issues.
Where has the Donald gone with this thread title.

Never hear them giving out about lazy nurses, doctors, dentists, bus drivers... accountants, plumbers, builders, tilers, engineers. Of which I've had bad experiences of the lot. Come to think of it I can't remember any of my own teachers who id say we're lazy.

Any job you'll get people with a lazy underperforming streak.

But any issues teachers air it'll be back to this trope to sidetrack the thread. Same old play:
I've a friend,relative who is a lazy teacher.
I've had a lazy teacher.
Every other job has insurances against underperforming.

So no, we don't need proper contact tracing and adequate supply of equipment in schools etc ... Because Joe, Joe, Joe , because of lazy teachers Joe .... :pac:

Was it not yourself who was decrying support for Irish and comparing it to the UK system where they get much more support............and to prove it you had a tweet about a story from an Irish publication about a teacher having to buy chalk for their students.......but the story was actually about a teacher in Southampton!


It could have been a different user but for some reason I think it was you

Benicetomonty

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No it's not begrudgers. Government has decided that schools staying open is a priority. The same is true across Europe. While unions and workers have the right to give there views on how it is done at some stage decision have to be made. Government also consulted other experts and NHEPT. It set the criteria and has made a huge amount of extra resources in the form of teachers and temporary classrooms

At the end of it this is not a normal situation, you can look at it similar to the emergency during WW2. Different but an one in 50 year event. There is no template. Government has decided it priorities and schools staying open is one of them. None of the other two teaching unions the INTO and the TUI decided to ballot on strike action in the middle of an emergency. The ASTI did.

All data is showing that the risk category in schools is low with low incidence and low transmission rates. Online teaching is not an option. If Student go home the lower academic student and there from deprived area will suffer the most. Frontline workers like nurses , doctors and Gardai will be required to put day care in place for there children. Children who's parents work may be unable to access online education during the day. This would put a huge burden on these people.

The Government entered L5 lockdown to ensure that schools stay open. Once again the ASTI has miss read a situation and is leading teachers into an industrial dispute that the cannot or will not win. They have no support from other teachers unions and it a form of sabotage during a national emergency.

The main begrudgery that comes across in this thread is whereby teachers look out at other workers who earn more than them. In general over the years I have come across a cohort of teachers who are balanced individuals, they have a chip on both shoulders. The staff canteen seems to engender an attitude that thinks teachers are hard done by. I have come across some great balanced teachers during my life. However there is also a cohort that have become radicalised who look begrudgingly at former students who have done well for themselves. They also see people who they consider of lower academic ability who have achieved success through hard work.

Teachers need to get.on with it and stop looking over the fence at success and inwardly at what they consider lack of success. Success in financial endeavours costs, in any situation not possible but it requires hard work. Very few successful people get handed anything they gain it by risk and hard work.

Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world. I do not begrudge it to them. My daughter is one. But neither do I think that teaching is entitled to.more of our tax money

Dont even know where to start with this. So I'll just point out that you do not explain how the poster I was addressing is not clearly begrudging my conditions, my right to protect or enhance them and my right to withdraw my labour if I wish to do so.

Your other points are a mix of prejudice, hysteria, bizarre comparisons and a lack of understanding as to why the data is inevitably going to underplay the risks of Covid spreading within schools, primarily due to a poor testing programme that is based on the HSE's decision to alter their own definition of what a close contact is if involves a classroom.

Bass Reeves

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Genuine question - if teachers weren't 'paid with our tax money' would you mind them getting more money/ pay restoration/a pay rise (any of these)?

I'm just talking in general terms, not in relation to the proposed strike action, which I am not in favour of.

Then how would they be paid. There is two way teachers can be paid,neither by tax payers money or directly by parents. There is not tooth fairy with an unlimited money supply

Treppen

Dav010 wrote: »

Look around boards, you will find threads complaining about all the above, perhaps not about them being lazy though, any in the private sector would either be self employed or employed, laziness tends not to be tolerated to much in those professions listed.

You kidding me?
I've been hiring tradesmen for decades and to say you need to supervise then and check up on their work is an understatement. And of course I've gotton real good guys too. I've worked as a painter and landscaper too so I know how corners are cut as well.

What I'm talking about is a thread on Covid i.e. the thread title, but yet were back into this lazy sidetrack again.

I can go onto a forum and ask about plumbing, painting or gardening, but it won't be dragged off topic like here.

Treppen

Donald Trump wrote: »

Was it not yourself who was decrying support for Irish and comparing it to the UK system where they get much more support............and to prove it you had a tweet about a story from an Irish publication about a teacher having to buy chalk for their students.......but the story was actually about a teacher in Southampton!


It could have been a different user but for some reason I think it was you

Yes it was me, I wasn't trying to pretend it was from an Irish paper btw. I was showing that in England a teacher apologised to parents for asking them to buy stationary for their kids. That made the news.
In Ireland it's normal that parents stump up for everything + the school running costs with a 'voluntary contribution' on top.

So the attitude that 'teachers can go away and but their own school's safety equipment' just shows the lack of care for education funding.

Especially when other 'normal' businesses and public services supply these things to the people in the building as a matter of course.

But anyway... back to the thread conversation on lazy teachers.

Donald Trump

Treppen wrote: »

You kidding me?
I've been hiring tradesmen for decades and to say you need to supervise then and check up on their work is an understatement. And of course I've gotton real good guys too. I've worked as a painter and landscaper too so I know how corners are cut as well.

What I'm talking about is a thread on Covid i.e. the thread title, but yet were back into this lazy sidetrack again.

I can go onto a forum and ask about plumbing, painting or gardening, but it won't be dragged off topic like here.

If you started a thread on a cowboy plumber, you probably wouldn't get a response from another plumber saying that, even though the cowboy didn't fix the leak and it's still pissing out everywhere under the sink, you can't measure the effect that the job had on the auroa of the house. That you can't even take into account that he does the same thing over and over again in other houses. And the reason being that the complainant doesn't understand how pipes feel inside and the complications of dealing with pipe. And besides, you can't measure the effect to the other aspects of the pipe's lifetime in the house due to the inspiration of the plumber.

Donald Trump

Treppen wrote: »

Yes it was me, I wasn't trying to pretend it was from an Irish paper btw. I was showing that in England a teacher apologised to parents for asking them to buy stationary for their kids. That made the news.
In Ireland it's normal that parents stump up for everything + the school running costs with a 'voluntary contribution' on top.

So the attitude that 'teachers can go away and but their own school's safety equipment' just shows the lack of care for education funding.

Especially when other 'normal' businesses and public services supply these things to the people in the building as a matter of course.

But anyway... back to the thread conversation on lazy teachers.

Ok fair enough. I misunderstood your original post on the topic

Treppen

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you started a thread on a cowboy plumber, you probably wouldn't get a response from another plumber saying that, even though the cowboy didn't fix the leak and it's still pissing out everywhere under the sink, you can't measure the effect that the job had on the auroa of the house. That you can't even take into account that he does the same thing over and over again in other houses. And the reason being that the complainant doesn't understand how pipes feel inside and the complications of dealing with pipe. And besides, you can't measure the effect to the other aspects of the pipe's lifetime in the house due to the inspiration of the plumber.

Yes but I wouldn't start a thread in 'cowboy plumbers' if I wanted the thread to be about types of radiators people would recommend.

This thread is about industrial action concerning Covid, but yet you're banging on about firing lazy teachers and measuring teacher performance. Which shows you've nothing to contribute to the topic at hand really.

But carry on with your deap insight into education. It's quite revealing.

Donald Trump

Treppen wrote: »

Yes but I wouldn't start a thread in 'cowboy plumbers' if I wanted the thread to be about types of radiators people would recommend.

This thread is about industrial action concerning Covid, but yet you're banging on about firing lazy teachers and measuring teacher performance. Which shows you've nothing to contribute to the topic at hand really.

But carry on with your deap insight into education. It's quite revealing.

I'm only trying to inject a bit of humour into the thread

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm only trying to inject a bit of humour into the thread

Of course you are 🙄

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Of course you are ��

Whatever that character is you posted at the end, it doesn't come in on my browser. It comes in as (delete the spaces)


ð Ÿ ™ „

Mr. teddywinkles

Let them strike and just give them dole.

wirelessdude01

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Let them strike and just give them dole.

Ohh how original.

Treppen

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Let them strike and just give them dole.

Usually you don't get paid during a strike, but if you're offering dole+strike then I'm ok with that.
Thanks

wirelessdude01

Treppen wrote: »

Usually you don't get paid during a strike, but if you're offering dole+strike then I'm ok with that.
Thanks

Haha. I had something similar typed..

Blondini

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Let them strike and just give them dole.

I know a few young teachers who would love the pay rise of the dole.... and the rent allowance...and the medical card ...

Bananaleaf

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Genuine question - if teachers weren't 'paid with our tax money' would you mind them getting more money/ pay restoration/a pay rise (any of these)?

I'm just talking in general terms, not in relation to the proposed strike action, which I am not in favour of.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Then how would they be paid. There is two way teachers can be paid,neither by tax payers money or directly by parents. There is not tooth fairy with an unlimited money supply

You didn't answer the question. I've quoted it again for convenience. Genuinely interested in a response, not being smart for the sake of it

Donald Trump

Treppen wrote: »

Usually you don't get paid during a strike, but if you're offering dole+strike then I'm ok with that.
Thanks

This is the Schrodingers cat of work for teachers. Let's ignore the fact that missed pay is usually restored for teachers at the end of the process.


Do you get paid for your holidays or do you get paid for the days you work, and that your resulting salary payment is just spread out over the full year?


Or do you get paid for each single day (365) of the year?


I'm just asking your view on this. Because there doesn't seem to be a consistent answer.

Blondini

Donald Trump wrote: »

You may be out of your depth .................

Huh?