ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Bananaleaf

Donald Trump wrote: »

This is the Schrodingers cat of work for teachers. Let's ignore the fact that missed pay is usually restored for teachers at the end of the process.

I'm not sure what you mean by restored. We are paid a salary which is spread out over however many pay dates there are in the year. However, when we strike, the pay that we would have gotten for that day is deducted at source that month or a few months later as was the case this year. But it is taken. If we are entitled to get it back this is news to me

Donald Trump

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by restored. We are paid a salary which is spread out over however many pay dates there are in the year. However, when we strike, the pay that we would have gotten for that day is deducted at source that month or a few months later as was the case this year. But it is taken. If we are entitled to get it back this is news to me

I never said you were entitled to get it back. But it is often negotiated at the end in whatever deal it comes to. That's what I thought but am open to correction!


The reason I ask about the pay is that when there is a strike, teachers are deducted 1/7th of their weekly pay. In other words, 1/365 of their yearly salary.



I read that on a TUI website. That could be wrong but that is what I read.

Bananaleaf

Donald Trump wrote: »

I never said you were entitled to get it back. But it is often negotiated at the end in whatever deal it comes to. That's what I thought but am open to correction!


The reason I ask about the pay is that when there is a strike, teachers are deducted 1/7th of their weekly pay. In other words, 1/365 of their yearly salary.



I read that on a TUI website. That could be wrong but that is what I read.

Sorry, entitled isn't the right word to use. I also wasn't arguing or disputing what you are saying, I am certainly not an expert when it comes to the accounting side of things.

I would say that what you have said above is probably accurate, but I am unsure of the ratios. It is how our pay is deducted if we are sick and uncertified so it would make sense. But ... we don't ever get it back, so does that not mean that we are not paid for strike days? Or do you mean that if strike action is successful, that we get the pay back then? I never knew that if that is the case.

Donald Trump

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Sorry, entitled isn't the right word to use. I also wasn't arguing or disputing what you are saying, I am certainly not an expert when it comes to the accounting side of things.

I would say that what you have said above is probably accurate, but I am unsure of the ratios. It is how our pay is deducted if we are sick and uncertified so it would make sense. But ... we don't ever get it back, so does that not mean that we are not paid for strike days? Or do you mean that if strike action is successful, that we get the pay back then? I never knew that if that is the case.

It's not a thing unique to teachers. I think that if a deal is reached, that Unions would try to negotiate that the missed pay be restored as part of the deal. It is cut from you by default though when you go on strike. So no guarantees you would get it back!


That's just what I think. I'm not claiming it with certainty. I've never been on strike so I don't know. Others who have been on strike in the past might be able to say they were always paid eventually, or never paid eventually or sometimes were paid eventually

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not a thing unique to teachers. I think that if a deal is reached, that Unions would try to negotiate that the missed pay be restored as part of the deal. It is cut from you by default though when you go on strike. So no guarantees you would get it back!


That's just what I think. I'm not claiming it with certainty. I've never been on strike so I don't know. Others who have been on strike in the past might be able to say they were always paid eventually, or never paid eventually or sometimes were paid eventually

You never get strike money back. Asti are also down half an increment from the last time they striked.

wirelessdude01

Smacruairi wrote: »

You never get strike money back. Asti are also down half an increment from the last time they striked.

But sure Donnie never lets the facts get in the way in the narrative he wants to push. Happens both on boards and in The US.

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But sure Donnie never lets the facts get in the way in the narrative he wants to push. Happens both on boards and in The US.

I clearly said in my post that I wasn't sure and was open to correction. That was an invitation for someone to correct me. There is no need for you to be so aggressive and bitter all the time

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

I clearly said in my post that I wasn't sure and was open to correction. That was an invitation for someone to correct me. There is no need for you to be so aggressive and bitter all the time

Ah but you've done that a few times now. "I'm just asking questions" and then firing out any old thing to derail or cast aspersions. "I hear you're a racist, father".

Donald Trump

Smacruairi wrote: »

Ah but you've done that a few times now. "I'm just asking questions" and then firing out any old thing to derail or cast aspersions. "I hear you're a racist, father".

No, that is your perception but that is skewed by something else. It's awful bitter.



BTW, I can probably find at least one time over the past 20 years where teachers (or some other union) were retroactively paid for the days they were on strike which would disprove your definite never claim. When you are saying never, what you are telling us is that as far as you are aware which is not the same thing. I will wait and see if someone else comes along who can remember it happening.



Anyway, even if you don't get it back, you don't lose the proper pro-rated amount. You lose 1/7th of your week. Most occupations would dock you 1/5th of a weekly rate for missing one day. If a teacher strikes for 1/167 of their annual working days, they only get docked 1/365 of their annual salary. So you still kinda get a little over half your pay and benefits for that day's work

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

No, that is your perception but that is skewed by something else. It's awful bitter.



BTW, I can probably find at least one time over the past 20 years where teachers (or some other union) were retroactively paid for the days they were on strike which would disprove your definite never claim. When you are saying never, what you are telling us is that as far as you are aware which is not the same thing. I will wait and see if someone else comes along who can remember it happening.



Anyway, even if you don't get it back, you don't lose the proper pro-rated amount. You lose 1/7th of your week. Most occupations would dock you 1/5th of a weekly rate for missing one day. If a teacher strikes for 1/167 of their annual working days, they only get docked 1/365 of their annual salary. So you still kinda get a little over half your pay and benefits for that day's work

So you don't know, threw out an allegation and hope someone comes along with something to back it up. Then u go off making up a formula for lost pay that you don't even know is in use...and all this when we have repeatedly asked that this be kept to strike action to improve conditions in schools for students and teachers.

Donny, you said you were looking for a laugh earlier but this is just ripping the piss.

khalessi

Smacruairi wrote: »

So you don't know, threw out an allegation and hope someone comes along with something to back it up. Then u go off making up a formula for lost pay that you don't even know is in use...and all this when we have repeatedly asked that this be kept to strike action to improve conditions in schools for students and teachers.

Donny, you said you were looking for a laugh earlier but this is just ripping the piss.

If you read his posts you can see he is gaslighting. Anyone who responds is told they dont understand, are emotioinal, are bitter for example. He also tried to belittle the professionalism of teachers by telling us data doesnt lie and that

"I'm not talking about fingerpainting or mala here. I'm talking stats and data. I'll come to the teachers if I have professional questions about the former. but then deleted that off his original post."

He is just talking rubbish dont feed him.

Donald Trump

Smacruairi wrote: »

So you don't know, threw out an allegation and hope someone comes along with something to back it up. Then u go off making up a formula for lost pay that you don't even know is in use...and all this when we have repeatedly asked that this be kept to strike action to improve conditions in schools for students and teachers.

Donny, you said you were looking for a laugh earlier but this is just ripping the piss.

Morto for ya.

TUI wrote:

[FONT=Calibri, serif]Will I lose pay?[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, serif]There will be a loss of pay for the day – this is 1/7[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, serif]th[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, serif] of the weekly salary or, for an hourly paid person, the pay for the day. There will be a loss of pension credit for the strike day only.[/FONT]

Smacruairi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Morto for ya.

What a got ya, you found the evidence that strike money isn't reimbursed all by yourself. Good man.

wirelessdude01

Donald Trump wrote: »

Morto for ya.

So where is the proof that strike pay is reimbursed? That is what you seem to be claiming.

Bubbaclaus

Is that TUI link true? That there is only a docking of 1/7th pay per strike day? So if you strike for the week you would still get 2/7ths pay?

Interesting if true. Not sure I understand the logic.

Donald Trump

Smacruairi wrote: »

What a got ya, you found the evidence that strike money isn't reimbursed all by yourself. Good man.

Hahahaha. Morto.



Looks like the formula I made up has magically appeared in a TUI document





And, as most people who can read could see, that document does not state that you will never ever get that money back. And most people with basic reading comprehension would also see that I explicitly said, over a few posts, that it was not guaranteed. I stated that it could be restored retroactively as part of a deal. I never said it would always be



It is not guaranteed of course. You think it is never true because ASTI members didn't get something back after a recent strike. But of course, it is too complicated for you to notice that the occasion that you are referring to, did not result in a deal. If there is no deal then you won't get it back. If there is a deal and your union don't include it as a condition/sweetener, then they are idiots.

Donald Trump

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So where is the proof that strike pay is reimbursed? That is what you seem to be claiming.

Go back and read my posts. If you still think that I claimed that, try reading them again a little slower.

Donald Trump

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Is that TUI link true? That there is only a docking of 1/7th pay per strike day? So if you strike for the week you would still get 2/7ths pay?

Interesting if true. Not sure I understand the logic.

Here, look. I made it up apparently. I must have hacked the TUI servers.


I have a relation who qualified as a primary teacher. They covered leave for some other teacher for a year. But it wasn't quite a year.......because the "normal" teacher on leave came in to work the half day before each break.....if they were on the payroll for that day, then they got fully paid for the break.


Fair play to them for playing the system. I'm just stating a fact. My relation didn't get paid for the breaks though as they weren't on whatever you call a permanent contract.

lulublue22

Donald Trump wrote: »

Morto for ya.

At this stage you should be morto for yourself - it has been pointed out numerous times by numerous posters that teachers do not get paid while on strike nor is the money docked reimbursed at a later stage. Nor does anyone expect to be paid while on strike.

presume the 1/7 is the same as how sick leave is calculated ie if out the following mon then the weekend is counted - if not then weekend not counted. So possibly if strike lasts 1 week docked 5/7 if strike goes into following mon 7/7 pay docked.

Donald Trump

lulublue22 wrote: »

At this stage you should be morto for yourself - it has been pointed out numerous times by numerous posters that teachers do not get paid while on strike nor is the money docked reimbursed at a later stage. Nor does anyone expect to be paid while on strike.

Listen. The level of reading comprehension here is astounding. I never said they were paid while on strike.



That teacher I was responding to claimed with absolute definiteness that I made up the 1/7th figure.


I simply posted a link showing where one of the Unions gives the details. Of course, the union could be lying. Who knows.

lulublue22

Donald Trump wrote: »

Listen. The level of reading comprehension here is astounding. I never said they were paid while on strike.



That teacher I was responding to claimed with absolute definiteness that I made up the 1/7th figure.


I simply posted a link showing where one of the Unions gives the details. Of course, the union could be lying. Who knows.

You are a bull**** artist who argues against teachers no matter what - fair enough you are entitled to your opinion and fair dues you are consistent in your negativity. From my perspective its a pain in the hole as it drags the thread totally off topic and we are back to lazy teachers and attainment related pay - neither of which are part if the ASTI ballot.

Donald Trump

I'm leaving this for a while. You can all wallow in your bitterness and aggressiveness and sniping. It's terrible how insecure and touchy ye are as a group. Everything gets dragged down.

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Go back and read my posts. If you still think that I claimed that, try reading them again a little slower.

Look we know you edit/delete your posts so what is the point.

lulublue22

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm leaving this for a while. You can all wallow in your bitterness and aggressiveness and sniping. It's terrible how insecure and touchy ye are as a group. Everything gets dragged down.

Personally not bitter nor sniping nor aggressive touchy or insecure - Fed up to the back teeth of having every teaching related thread dragged off topic by the same old rhetoric most definitely- particularly when not related to the thread topic at all - It would be interesting / novel to actually have a thread re ASTI strike actually debate the merits or lack of , of the issues raised.

Dav010

lulublue22 wrote: »

Personally not bitter nor sniping nor aggressive touchy or insecure - Fed up to the back teeth of having every teaching related thread dragged off topic by the same old rhetoric most definitely- particularly when not related to the thread topic at all - It would be interesting / novel to actually have a thread re ASTI strike actually debate the merits or lack of , of the issues raised.

You should have considered getting your PR right before the ballot, it’s too late now. Some of your colleagues snared at the possibility that public support may not be on your side, and that their support isn’t important. I think your union misjudged that.

Bass Reeves

Bananaleaf wrote: »

You didn't answer the question. I've quoted it again for convenience. Genuinely interested in a response, not being smart for the sake of it

Your question is hypothetical as well he money has to come from somewhere. It either tax funded, patent funded or else are we talking about maybe a mysterious benefactor who has access to massive resources maybe Bill Gates or Warren Buffet will decide to fund the Irish education system. Then you will not need my answer. Hypothetical questions deserv hypothetical answers

Ish66

I now understand why Michael O Leary of Ryanair hated unions for so long.

lulublue22

Dav010 wrote: »

You should have considered getting your PR right before the ballot, it’s too late now. Some of your colleagues snared at the possibility that public support may not be on your side, and that their support isn’t important. I think your union misjudged that.

It’s not actually my union at all - at this stage I’ve no skin in the game - though pr has always been an issue for teaching unions.

Bananaleaf

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Your question is hypothetical as well he money has to come from somewhere. It either tax funded, patent funded or else are we talking about maybe a mysterious benefactor who has access to massive resources maybe Bill Gates or Warren Buffet will decide to fund the Irish education system. Then you will not need my answer. Hypothetical questions deserv hypothetical answers

So you agree that funding is needed and you have seemingly no issue with some teachers asking for pay equality. Just so long as you don't have to pay for it.

Fair enough, you've every right to feel that way. It won't make the problems go away though - there are no magic fairies for that either.

Treppen

Donald Trump wrote: »

This is the Schrodingers cat of work for teachers. Let's ignore the fact that missed pay is usually restored for teachers at the end of the process.


Do you get paid for your holidays or do you get paid for the days you work, and that your resulting salary payment is just spread out over the full year?


Or do you get paid for each single day (365) of the year?


I'm just asking your view on this. Because there doesn't seem to be a consistent answer.

Still avoiding any discussion of Covid I see.

But anyway I'll illuminate your dullness.

1. No you don't get pay "restored" for the days on strike.

2. For post primary it's 167 days you need to work , your paid each single day OF THAT not 365. Then you get a pro rata of that as your hours or full contact decreases. The department have a slightly more complicated formula but I doubt you'll read this far anyway.