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ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

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    #1082
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    2 more pages on teachers wages. Tried to illustrate the level of underinvestment and relate to biggest classes, which when you are looking for social distancing as your primary way to limit the virus in the absence of adequate testing and contact tracing is appalling, but nah, people still want to harp on about wages again. When people point towards a losing PR battle, this is why it's not high on our list of concerns, the dogmatism towards not considering students at all and focusing on money here shows why.


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    #1083
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    2 more pages on teachers wages..............

    But the wages are mentioned as part of the rationale for the strike.


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    #1084
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »


    If someone wants to earn multiples of the "normal" Irish teacher's salary in the Middle East, what would be "enough"? Would they be getting paid more than the post 2011 rate? Or would you have to pay everyone the same in order to gain "equalisation" because they all have the same qualifications, right?

    No one goes into teaching to be rich. However fairness and transparency is paramount.

    Terms and conditions have been eroded. Restore some of these were reasons along with one pay scale then I'd be pretty sure teachers and nurses wouldn't be leaving as soon as they quality. When you have schools getting one application for two maternity leave positions then younknow we have an issue.

    The precarious nature of contracts and hours is a serious issue at secondary level.


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    #1085
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    What did I say that is so confrontational?

    Facts my dear.

    The below is a confrontation.
    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Did I say that?

    If you had said "I didn't say that" or "That's not what I said/ meant", then it would not have been confrontational.


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    #1086
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Augeo wrote: »
    But the wages are mentioned as part of the rationale for the strike.

    Then please feel free to engage on the other aspects, Jesus.


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    #1087
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    The below is a confrontation.



    If you had said "I didn't say that" or "That's not what I said/ meant", then it would not have been confrontational.

    What do you do, and what do you earn?


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    #1088
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    The below is a confrontation.



    If you had said "I didn't say that" or "That's not what I said/ meant", then it would not have been confrontational.

    So asking a question is confrontational?

    This really is s laugh now.


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    #1089
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    No one goes into teaching to be rich. However fairness and transparency is paramount.

    Terms and conditions have been eroded. Some of these were realtors along with one pay scale then I'd be pretty sure teachers and nurses wouldn't be leaving as soon as they quality. When you have schools getting one application for two maternity leave positions then younknow we have an issue.

    The precarious nature of contracts and hours is a serious issue at secondary level.

    So strike about the precarious nature of contracts and hours then. Train more teachers. Student teachers must give x amount of years service before they qualify, much like student nurses. The ASTI are asking that the teachers qualified after 2010 get a pay increase, not demanding improvements their contracts and hours


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    #1090
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Then please feel free to engage on the other aspects, Jesus.

    I feel teachers are using Covid as a means to get their wage grievances resolved. As I think this is rather scummy given the state of the nation I've absolutely no interest in their other grievances.


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    #1091
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    What do you do, and what do you earn?

    I don't think that's of any relevance to you or this thread.


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    #1092
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    So strike about the precarious nature of contracts and hours then. Train more teachers. Student teachers must give x amount of years service before they qualify, much like student nurses. The ASTI are asking that the teachers qualified after 2010 get a pay increase, not demanding improvements their contracts and hours

    Ohh why be so confrontational.......


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    #1093
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    What do you do, and what do you earn?

    No doubt they'll have some smart answer along the lines of it's none of our business, it has nothing to do with this discussion or something similar.


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    #1094
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    No doubt they'll have some smart answer along the lines of it's none of our business, it has nothing to do with this discussion or something similar.

    It's not particularly smart, but thanks for answering for me- it isn't your business and hasn't anything to do with the discussion, indeed.


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    #1095
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Lillyfae wrote: »


    I bolded this because it's an important part of the original question. Leaving it out makes it look like people don't agree with adequately funding education, which no-one here has said. It doesn't matter where the money would come from, it's just not necessary to pay teachers more at this point of time. Resources (other than teaching staff) in education are much higher priority than paying teachers more, when the salary is already perfectly fair for the work. Increasing the salary would be to the detriment of the other resources.

    Yes, fair enough, you are right to point out this is in relation to salary. I wasn't leaving it out on purpose, but you are right it is important to be clear.

    The bit of your post in bold - I think that nobody can take issue with that if it is your view. You don't believe that teachers need to be paid more at this moment and time, no matter where the money would come from. I respect this. This means you really don't think a pay increase is warranted.

    What irritates me are those whose only issue with an increase in pay is that they just don't want it coming out of their tax money.


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    #1096
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Bananaleaf wrote: »

    What irritates me are those whose only issue with an increase in pay is that they just don't want it coming out of their tax money.

    Just wondering though, if not taxes then where would the money come from?


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    #1097
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Has anyone is the ASTI got an update re the demands? Is there any sign of them being met or are talks happening?


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    #1098
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,670 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Bananaleaf wrote: »

    What irritates me are those whose only issue with an increase in pay is that they just don't want it coming out of their tax money.

    It is not anybody's tax payers money rather it the availability of funds. We have serious funding issues over the next 20-30years. For instance the OAP as we know it need serious overhaul. We are heading to a situation with the increase of life expectancy that we will have as many retired as working in this country. There is a huge cohort of workers out there that have no private pension scheme. It will require funding from both the state and there employers to address this issue. Would I put it as a priority ahead of teachers pay yes I would.

    We need to adequately fund preschool as well as crèche and most workers in that sector are minimum wage. However would that impact on the amount paid in children's allowance. With WFH it may reduce the cost but for younger workers it a priority that we look at crèche and preschool funding

    We need to invest in water infrastructure, unfortunately water charges were knocked on the head, believe it or not virtually all unions backed the antiwater charges protest maybe the ASTI did not but that reduced available funding.

    We need to address our carbon footprint again this will cost money and possibly shrink the economy. Shrinking the economy means less tax revenue

    We need to address the housing issue again it will cost money. Add to that we probably need to invest in transport infrastructure what form that will take after COVID us anybody's guess. There is not a limitless pot of money out there. We need to reform the taxation model, lower paid workers contribute very little, it encourages tax avoidance by the self employed. Because of that marginal tax rates are hit too early by workers young teachers included.

    That is just the tip of the iceberg where funding is required ahead of teachers pay

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #1099
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    I don't think that's of any relevance to you or this thread.

    You think that teachers are over paid. You think the wages are high, I would like to know what you are basing that off, and how your personal affairs influence that decision.

    You won't engage regarding the conditions of schools, you kept bringing it back to wages, so therefore I'd like to know what your frame of reference is.


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    #1100
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    You think that teachers are over paid. You think the wages are high, I would like to know what you are basing that off, and how your personal affairs influence that decision.

    You won't engage regarding the conditions of schools, you kept bringing it back to wages, so therefore I'd like to know what your frame of reference is.

    I haven't said they are overpaid. I've said they are adequately paid for the work they do. This would be in the context of them already being amongst the highest paid teachers in Europe.

    This isn't a thread about me threatening to strike during a pandemic, it's about some ASTI members threatening to strike during a pandemic.


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    #1101
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Well here are the starting salaries for primary teachers in Europe from 2018.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1093945/primary-teacher-salaries-in-europe/

    Very firmly in the bottom third.


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    #1102
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Updated definition of close contacts in a school setting according to The Examiner

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40074659.html?type=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    Doesn't look much different to how it has been since September to me?


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    #1103
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Well here are the starting salaries for primary teachers in Europe from 2018.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1093945/primary-teacher-salaries-in-europe/

    Very firmly in the bottom third.

    That's behind a paywall.

    Here's the OECD figures from 2019

    4th from the highest paid in Europe.


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    #1104
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    That's behind a paywall.

    Here's the OECD figures from 2019

    Did I read it incorrectly or does that put Irish teachers just over the half way mark in term of saleries compared to other countries?

    Edit: just to clarify I compared starting salaries


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    #1105
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    History Queen wrote: »
    Updated definition of close contacts in a school setting according to The Examiner

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40074659.html?type=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    Doesn't look much different to how it has been since September to me?

    "uncertain compliance with the mitigation measures in place."

    I think this is the real issue here. Very little change in the other definitions. However, behind an awful lot of the union's bleating has been the unspoken admission that a lot of teachers haven't been sticking to the rules in their classrooms and when a case happened began to panic.


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    #1106
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    blanch152 wrote: »
    "uncertain compliance with the mitigation measures in place."

    I think this is the real issue here. Very little change in the other definitions. However, behind an awful lot of the union's bleating has been the unspoken admission that a lot of teachers haven't been sticking to the rules in their classrooms and when a case happened began to panic.

    Really? What rules aren't being stuck to?


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    #1107
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    blanch152 wrote: »
    "uncertain compliance with the mitigation measures in place."

    I think this is the real issue here. Very little change in the other definitions. However, behind an awful lot of the union's bleating has been the unspoken admission that a lot of teachers haven't been sticking to the rules in their classrooms and when a case happened began to panic.

    Hard not to stick to the 40cm social distancing as suggested by the department in their guidelines.


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    #1108
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    blanch152 wrote: »
    "uncertain compliance with the mitigation measures in place."

    I think this is the real issue here. Very little change in the other definitions. However, behind an awful lot of the union's bleating has been the unspoken admission that a lot of teachers haven't been sticking to the rules in their classrooms and when a case happened began to panic.

    Actually being honest teachers are not panicking, they are getting on with it and just resigned to the opinion that their health and wellbeing is not being considered at all, as, well in words of one public health consultant, babysitters, who will mind the close contact when parents have to work.


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    #1109
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    blanch152 wrote: »
    "uncertain compliance with the mitigation measures in place."
    panic.

    Thought you were talking about Varadkar there for a second.


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    #1110
    carq
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭carq


    Will teachers be informed if a covid positive case has been in their classroom?

    Will they be allowed a test if this is the case ?



    To me these are such basic requirements its mad they are not in place.


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    #1111
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    I do love the language used to discuss teachers, bitter emotional, panicking. This would not be said of healthcare but then healthcare incorporates more men and also is supposed to be a place of calm in an emergency. There was an interesting article in the Irish Examiner about whether teacher-bashing yet another issue of gender, as generally most of the voices are male.
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/people/arid-40072736.html


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