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ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

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    #1172
    lulublue22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Generally I would agree with you, I would not say teachers are overpaid, nor indeed lazy. I do think that teachers have benefits not standard in the private sector, which should be appreciated.

    But, if teachers don’t know by now that this was not the time to threaten strike action, the disconnect is still mind boggling.

    But you are still working off the premise that there will at some stage by a good time to strike - From my experience there never will be. Question is when are you more likely to achieve your aims - in the middle of a crises or after the crises ? If public opinion is so negative and believe me it is - I never had anyone feel as free to comment on my work when I was in the private sector as now that I am teaching. It’s like teachers are fair game - a post on here calling us ***** a poster insisting we were hiding under the bed for 6 months when our employer physically closed our building and told us to wfh. The vitriol is crazy. There will never be a good time to strike. People not alone have a very negative opinion of teachers but feel very free to air those opinions. Why should teachers wait for some non existent good will to appear ?


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    #1173
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Teachers are accessible. Any household in Ireland that has children will be involved with teachers and schools. Its why the pool of opinion is so large. People are more likely to talk and be vocal about negative experiences than positive. Mums also talk ALOT.

    I think public sector employees generally are at the negative end of someones opinion..


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    #1174
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    lulublue22 wrote: »
    But you are still working off the premise that there will at some stage by a good time to strike - From my experience there never will be. Question is when are you more likely to achieve your aims - in the middle of a crises or after the crises ? If public opinion is so negative and believe me it is - I never had anyone feel as free to comment on my work when I was in the private sector as now that I am teaching. It’s like teachers are fair game - a post on here calling us ***** a poster insisting we were hiding under the bed for 6 months when our employer physically closed our building and told us to wfh. The vitriol is crazy. There will never be a good time to strike. People not alone have a very negative opinion of teachers but feel very free to air those opinions. Why should teachers wait for some non existent good will to appear ?

    Normally, a strike causes inconvenience, most people regard it with intransigence, surely teachers understand that the public’s focus has been sharpened by Covid? Where before, grandparents or relatives may be on hand to help, that is not an option now. People have lost jobs, are off work, reduced pay etc, so for a Union to be so out of touch as to threaten strike action over pay when their members permanent jobs and pay are guaranteed, is sickening. There may not be a good time to threaten a strike, but this could be the worst time in history.


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    #1175
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    The somewhat ironic thing is that the number of teachers left behind is relatively small. Wouldn't actually take alot to do the right thing and put us all on the one payscale.


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    #1176
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    ...........

    Interestingly, one of the loudest voices on various teacher threads doesn't pay any tax that would be paying our wages.

    Who is that and how do you know what tax they pay?


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    #1177
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    The somewhat ironic thing is that the number of teachers left behind is relatively small. Wouldn't actually take alot to do the right thing and put us all on the one payscale.

    Therefore it wouldn't take a lot for all teachers to share the burden to get everyone back up to the same level, like any fair minded body would have pushed for originally, not taking it out on new entrants to protect the current workforce.


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    #1178
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Therefore it wouldn't take a lot for all teachers to share the burden to get everyone back up to the same level, like any fair minded body would have pushed for originally, not taking it out on new entrants to protect the current workforce.

    What are you on about? Do you actually understand the issue? No teacher, not one, voted to have a two tier system.


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    #1179
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Therefore it wouldn't take a lot for all teachers to share the burden to get everyone back up to the same level, like any fair minded body would have pushed for originally, not taking it out on new entrants to protect the current workforce.

    Ohh so your solution is drag everyone back down. There you have it folks, the race to the bottom.


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    #1180
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    khalessi wrote: »
    What I said is experience of 16 threads at least since March, and of the first page here where people happily refer to teachers as cnuts and bastar*s knowing they can get away with it. I pointed this out and was basically told it is a joke get over it.

    I spent 20 years as nurse and saw this then so it isnt a mindset. You dont seem to have the same objections to people referring to teachers as cnuts and bastar*ds. Not one peron corrected them and said it was too much, even the mods were happy to let it go.

    How about looking at the fact that teachers unions have made enough stupid comments or actions to merit 16 threads might be the real problem?

    Claims that there is 'no right time to strike' are nonsense. There is a right time to strike but that is when there is a fundamental issue that is greater than the pain the strike will cause the public and all avenues have been closed off for a resolution.

    Teachers unions however seem to go from zero to strike like a child throwing a tantrum as soon as they don't get their own way.


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    #1181
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    How about looking at the fact that teachers unions have made enough stupid comments or actions to merit 16 threads might be the real problem?

    Claims that there is 'no right time to strike' are nonsense. There is a right time to strike but that is when there is a fundamental issue that is greater than the pain the strike will cause the public and all avenues have been closed off for a resolution.

    Teachers unions however seem to go from zero to strike like a child throwing a tantrum as soon as they don't get their own way.

    You clearly have no concept of what trade unionism is actually about or what avenues are followed before a strike day is called. You realise no strike has been called?


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    #1182
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    How about looking at the fact that teachers unions have made enough stupid comments or actions to merit 16 threads might be the real problem?

    Claims that there is 'no right time to strike' are nonsense. There is a right time to strike but that is when there is a fundamental issue that is greater than the pain the strike will cause the public and all avenues have been closed off for a resolution.

    Teachers unions however seem to go from zero to strike like a child throwing a tantrum as soon as they don't get their own way.

    I'd love to know what happened to you in school that you hate teachers and their unions so much..


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    #1183
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    History Queen wrote: »
    What are you on about? Do you actually understand the issue? No teacher, not one, voted to have a two tier system.

    Sad attempt at semantics. The unions negotiated a deal that only protected existing teachers. They knew exactly what they were doing or else they were completely incompetent.
    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Ohh so your solution is drag everyone back down. There you have it folks, the race to the bottom.

    I believe the fairness of sharing a burden with my colleagues, not screwing the younger ones so I can stay better off.


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    #1184
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Sad attempt at semantics. The unions negotiated a deal that only protected existing teachers. They knew exactly what they were doing or else they were completely incompetent.



    I believe the fairness of sharing a burden with my colleagues, not screwing the younger ones so I can stay better off.

    Your first comment is woefully wide of the mark but then again you already know that but it suits to just liob it out there again.

    I'm one of those LPTs and I wouldn't expect any of my colleagues to do what you propose.


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    #1185
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Your first comment is woefully wide of the mark but then again you already know that but it suits to just liob it out there again.

    I'm one of those LPTs and I wouldn't expect any of my colleagues to do what you propose.

    So unions made an agreement to also protect new entrants when cuts were coming? :confused:

    They had to choose what to protect in negotiations and they threw new entrants under the bus


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    #1186
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So unions made an agreement to also protect new entrants when cuts were coming? :confused:

    They had to choose what to protect in negotiations and they threw new entrants under the bus

    Source for what you say?


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    #1187
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    History Queen wrote: »
    You clearly have no concept of what trade unionism is actually about or what avenues are followed before a strike day is called. You realise no strike has been called?

    I know what trade unionism is supposed to be about and how negotiations work and the teachers union are pathetic on both fronts.


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    #1188
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Source for what you say?

    The Croke Park Agreement...

    You should take a look


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    #1189
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    .........
    I'm one of those LPTs and I wouldn't expect any of my colleagues to do what you propose.

    So you became a teacher knowing the payscale etc?


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    #1190
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Augeo wrote: »
    So you became a teacher knowing the payscale etc?

    It became a thing while I was training.


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    #1191
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    The Croke Park Agreement...

    You should take a look

    Well do post up the relevant bits that back up what you claim?

    I will be waiting.


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    #1192
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Well do post up the relevant bits that back up what you claim?

    I will be waiting.

    Can you not use google?

    Here is the ASTI page where it goes through what was agreed and existing teachers approved. Here is where they highlight protecting existing teachers pay and by doing so leaving the door wide open for new entrants to face cuts.
    Guarantee of no cut to existing teachers’ pay before 2014;

    https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/croke-park-agreement/


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    #1193
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So unions made an agreement to also protect new entrants when cuts were coming? :confused:

    They had to choose what to protect in negotiations and they threw new entrants under the bus

    False.


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    #1194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    It became a thing while I was training.

    So you applied for and accepted a position knowing that the payscale was "a thing"?


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    #1195
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Augeo wrote: »
    So you applied for and accepted a position knowing that the payscale was "a thing"?

    I was 4 years in to college so I couldn't exactly backout. I'd imagine wirelessdude was similar


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    #1196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    History Queen wrote: »
    I was 4 years in to college so I couldn't exactly backout. I'd imagine wirelessdude was similar

    So you reckoned you'd go for it and b1tch and moan about the pay, perhaps go on strike if you didn't get a payrise etc etc?

    Where's the cut off btw? Folk in college when it became "a thing" ........... or everyone?


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    #1197
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    History Queen wrote: »
    False.

    I just posted a link from the ASTI website showing the teachers unions either chose to protect existing teachers or were completely incompetent in their negotiations and 'forgot' about new entrants.

    Your attempt to gas-light might work on some new teachers to make them believe the unions and older colleagues had their back but the facts are out there for anyone that is interested.


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    #1198
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    I just posted a link from the ASTI website showing the teachers unions either chose to protect existing teachers or were completely incompetent in their negotiations and 'forgot' about new entrants.

    Your attempt to gas-light might work on some new teachers to make them believe the unions and older colleagues had their back but the facts are out there for anyone that is interested.

    I qualified since then. I'm more aware of the issues than you are having neen affected by them. Union protected their members "shocker". Union also did not have crystal ball "shocker".


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    #1199
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    History Queen wrote: »
    I qualified since then. I'm more aware of the issues than you are having neen affected by them. Union protected their members "shocker". Union also did not have crystal ball "shocker".

    You've clearly been listening to too many excuses from your union and colleagues.

    At least you now agree with my earlier statement
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    They had to choose what to protect in negotiations and they threw new entrants under the bus


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    #1200
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    You've clearly been listening to too many excuses from your union and colleagues.

    At least you now agree with my earlier statement

    No i don't agree with that statement. You don't speak for me


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    #1201
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    This article from 2012 outlines it pretty well. It criticises the teachers unions for not protecting new entrants however, it is also pointed out that the Croke Park Agreement did not sanction the cutting of new teachers pay. It was a unilateral decision made by government after the agreement was made.the only argument that can be made is unions should have known what was coming, perhaps, but it wasn't a case of consciously selling out new entrants.

    https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/two-tier-salary-scale-spells-trouble-in-the-classroom-as-new-teachers-take-a-hit-28901922.html


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