ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

History Queen

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is what you just said, the only difference is you're claiming it was down to the union's incompetence rather than a strategic decision. I believe you're extremely naive regarding that

You're entitled to your belief. As am I. I disagree with you entirely. I'm going to leave it there as we're derailing this thread even further.

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

I qualified since then. I'm more aware of the issues than you are having neen affected by them. Union protected their members "shocker". Union also did not have crystal ball "shocker".

HQ. Not offending you and only jumping back in temporarily but people in your situation are useful innocents* for your unions and your more senior colleagues.



If there is a deal done at the end of this process, the union reps will be far more likely to walk out the meeting with, say, a 5% rise across the board than to walk out with a deal which only restores equal pay for people in your situation. That deal pass by union vote and the union members will continue to say that "well we didn't vote for the dual-payscale-system". They will be technically correct of course.


The fact that you will still be disadvantaged relative to them is useful to them. They can always use that in the future to stir up more unrest and as an example of how badly they are treated. When they aren't being badly treated - only a subsection is being badly treated. It serves their purpose to keep that status quo.



This is history repeating itself. As the History Queen, you should know this to be honest.



You say that you were still in college before you joined the profession. You were not stuck on a train track that you could not get off of. You presumably went and did your HDip and then got work. Even after doing the HDip, you could still have gone and done something else. If you are someone in your 20s with few restrictions then you have less excuses. If you were in your 50's after a career change, and then surprised with the new scale, then there is more scope for sympathy.




* This is merely a term describing how people are manipulated for a cause by others who drive the cause. They don't really care about you but they will pretend to do so in order to indoctrinate you and use you as leverage. Don't get your knickers in a twist please over the literal term. I did not make it up

History Queen

Donald Trump wrote: »

HQ. Not offending you and only jumping back in temporarily but people in your situation are useful innocents for your unions and your more senior colleagues.



If there is a deal done at the end of this process, the union reps will be far more likely to walk out the meeting with, say, a 5% rise across the board than to walk out with a deal which only restores equal pay for people in your situation. That deal pass by union vote and the union members will continue to say that "well we didn't vote for the dual-payscale-system". They will be technically correct of course.


The fact that you will still be disadvantaged relative to them is useful to them. They can always use that in the future to stir up more unrest and as an example of how badly they are treated. When they aren't being badly treated - only a subsection is being badly treated. It serves their purpose to keep that status quo.



This is history repeating itself. As the History Queen, you should know this to be honest.



You say that you were still in college before you joined the profession. You were not stuck on a train track that you could not get off of. You presumably went and did your HDip and then got work. Even after doing the HDip, you could still have gone and done something else. If you are someone in your 20s with few restrictions then you have less excuses. If you were in your 50's after a career change, and then surprised with the new scale, then there is more scope for sympathy.

Not fair to comment on personal circumstances. Age shouldn't matter. I personally couldn't have done a career change at that stage.

As I said to the previous poster. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. And I don't appreciate being told "not to get my knickers in a twist " over your use of a derogatory term. Condescension unnecessary.

Donald Trump

History Queen wrote: »

As I said to the previous poster. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. And I don't appreciate being told "not to get my knickers in a twist ". Condescension unnecessary.

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. It as aimed at all posters. I posted a link to a common idiom "useful idiots". It is also called "useful innocents" although the former is far more common. I am trying to be clear that in using that expression to describe the situation, I am not calling you an "idiot".

Foxtrol

History Queen wrote: »

You're entitled to your belief. As am I. I disagree with you entirely. I'm going to leave it there as we're derailing this thread even further.

Your belief is akin to believing in the tooth fairy because someone told you it exists. You're entitled to hold the opinion but it doesn't stop others pointing out how ridiculous it is.

You have to twist yourself into believing professional negotiators and people involved in unions for decades didn't comprehend how agreeing to protect only the salaries of 'existing teachers' would not leave new teachers open to a pay cut.

It wasn't even like it was some sneaky move by the government negotiators who slipped it in and fooled the unions, the teachers unions specifically advertised 'existing teachers' piece to the members that voted to accept it. No one asked or cared about what would happen to new teachers, you were acceptable collateral damage to protect their interests.

Mrsmum

And it was was all over the newspapers, radio and TV debates at the time how it would make 'yellow pack' teachers out of the newbies. There is a reason everyone who was anyway awake at the time feel new teachers and others were abandoned by the acceptance of those terms for existing workers only - because they were. They technically didn't vote for new teachers to get less pay but they sure did vote for protection for existing staff only. Same result.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

And it was was all over the newspapers, radio and TV debates at the time how it would make 'yellow pack' teachers out of the newbies. There is a reason everyone who was anyway awake at the time feel new teachers and others were abandoned by the acceptance of those terms for existing workers only - because they were. They technically didn't vote for new teachers to get less pay but they sure did vote for protection for existing staff only. Same result.

I must have missed that

Edited to add: googled and situation is as wirelessdude describes below.

wirelessdude01

Actually the term 'yellow pack teacher' was used to describe teachers on temporary and part time contracts/hours. Essentially the casualisation of the profession at secondary level.

This was particularly used around 2012/13. I remember this because this was the time period in which I returned to Ireland from abroad.

Edited to add: A quick Google of yellow pack teachers Ireland brings up articles from 2011/2012 which confirms this.

Foxtrol

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Actually the term 'yellow pack teacher' was used to describe teachers on temporary and part time contracts/hours. Essentially the casualisation of the profession at secondary level.

This was particularly used around 2012/13. I remember this because this was the time period in which I returned to Ireland from abroad.

Edited to add: A quick Google of yellow pack teachers Ireland brings up articles from 2011/2012 which confirms this.

Croke Park Agreement was agreed by Teacher Unions and their members in 2010/11.

Here is an article from early 2011 mentioning the 'yellow pack' term and tying it to the Croke Park Agreement. Even if it was used in 2012/13 as you claim, it looks like the OP was actually correct that it was also used during the discussion related to the Croke Park Agreement and the impacts it caused.

A number of delegates angrily stated teaching had become a two-tier profession, with younger “yellow pack” teachers working for vastly inferior pay and conditions.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20152663.html

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

I must have missed that

Edited to add: googled and situation is as wirelessdude describes below.

Yes you did miss it. It was a hot topic in my family as I am from a family of teachers. Some at the time were 'existing' teachers, some at Mary I and some certain to be following behind. Tbh just after the agreement, the 'existing ' teachers went very silent on the matter but the further we got from the event, the more history seemed be be being rewritten that what happened to new teachers had nothing to do with them. I don't even blame the teachers for protecting No 1,in a way, but I just don't accept the pretence now. Ask yourself would you sign an agreement now that doesn't include incoming teachers. They did.

Hotblack Desiato

Teachers, along with all other public servants, had already been hit with three rounds of pay cuts at that stage and the government was threatening more if they didn't sign the agreement. And some people say they should have "negotiated" to avoid this. Jaysus wept. :rolleyes:

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

Yes you did miss it. It was a hot topic in my family as I am from a family of teachers. Some at the time were 'existing' teachers, some at Mary I and some certain to be following behind. Tbh just after the agreement, the 'existing ' teachers went very silent on the matter but the further we got from the event, the more history seemed be be being rewritten that what happened to new teachers had nothing to do with them. I don't even blame the teachers for protecting No 1,in a way, but I just don't accept the pretence now. Ask yourself would you sign an agreement now that doesn't include incoming teachers. They did.

I accept that. However I still don't accept that older teachers wilfully sold out younger members. Lookat this info that was sent to ASTI members in the run up to the CrokePark Ballot. Incoming teachers not mentioned. The members did not (as far as I can see anyway,) sign or vote for something that they were aware would lead to a two tier payscale. Remember it wasn't just about cuts it was also about averting redundancies

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Nuacht_no._1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo6ZKijufsAhViUBUIHZelDLYQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1PsamXKDu2j2JxNbMIo3l2

I tried to find similar for TUI and INTO but I couldn't. Will add here if I do.

Edit: found TUI one

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI News Ballot Special March 2011 FINAL.pdf

Foxtrol

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Teachers, along with all other public servants, had already been hit with three rounds of pay cuts at that stage and the government was threatening more if they didn't sign the agreement. And some people say they should have "negotiated" to avoid this. Jaysus wept. :rolleyes:

Are you claiming the teachers unions didn't negotiate anything related to Croke Park and just accepted what the government came with?

Foxtrol

History Queen wrote: »

I accept that. However I still don't accept that older teachers wilfully sold out younger members. Lookat this info that was sent to ASTI members in the run up to the CrokePark Ballot. Incoming teachers not mentioned. The members did not (as far as I can see anyway,) sign or vote for something that they were aware would lead to a two tier payscale. Remember it wasn't just about cuts it was also about averting redundancies

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Nuacht_no._1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo6ZKijufsAhViUBUIHZelDLYQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1PsamXKDu2j2JxNbMIo3l2

I tried to find similar for TUI and INTO but I couldn't. Will add here if I do.

Edit: found TUI one

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20Ballot%20Special%20March%202011%20FINAL.pdf

So is your claim the Unions purposefully mislead their members? As I posted earlier, the union in other communications were very clear that it was only existing teachers that were covered.

jimwallace197

History Queen wrote: »

I accept that. However I still don't accept that older teachers wilfully sold out younger members. Lookat this info that was sent to ASTI members in the run up to the CrokePark Ballot. Incoming teachers not mentioned. The members did not (as far as I can see anyway,) sign or vote for something that they were aware would lead to a two tier payscale. Remember it wasn't just about cuts it was also about averting redundancies

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Nuacht_no._1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo6ZKijufsAhViUBUIHZelDLYQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1PsamXKDu2j2JxNbMIo3l2

I tried to find similar for TUI and INTO but I couldn't. Will add here if I do.

Edit: found TUI one

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20Ballot%20Special%20March%202011%20FINAL.pdf

Oh come off it, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were determined at all cost not to suffer any reduction in their salaries whatsoever and they sold out new entrants as a result in the middle of a recession when plenty of other people were losing their jobs and livelihoods.

Typical of the type of me feiner attitude that exists amongst teachers which makes ye so easily dislikable.

Look at how ye all back each other up on this thread thanking each others posts continually in the hope that ye might convince the public that ye are not one of the most overpaid, self serving, hypocritical bunch of public sector workers there is.

Pathetic

Mrsmum

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Teachers, along with all other public servants, had already been hit with three rounds of pay cuts at that stage and the government was threatening more if they didn't sign the agreement. And some people say they should have "negotiated" to avoid this. Jaysus wept. :rolleyes:

The only reason not to" negotiate to avoid this" is to find a two tiered pay scale more acceptable than more pay cuts for existing teachers. I mean that's it in a nutshell.

Midlife

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Oh come off it, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were determined at all cost not to suffer any reduction in their salaries whatsoever and they sold out new entrants as a result in the middle of a recession when plenty of other people were losing their jobs and livelihoods.

Typical of the type of me feiner attitude that exists amongst teachers which makes ye so easily dislikable.

Look at how ye all back each other up on this thread thanking each others posts continually in the hope that ye might convince the public that ye are not one of the most overpaid, self serving, hypocritical bunch of public sector workers there is.

Pathetic

Yeah, teachers are so dislikeable.

I mean you're right. It's our posting style here. Makes us very dislikeable.

jimwallace197

Midlife wrote: »

Yeah, teachers are so dislikeable.

I mean you're right. It's our posting style here. Makes us very dislikeable.

So many of ye on here all day every day, god knows how ye actually manage to get any proper work done.

Midlife

Donald Trump wrote: »

HQ. Not offending you and only jumping back in temporarily but people in your situation are useful innocents* for your unions and your more senior colleagues.



If there is a deal done at the end of this process, the union reps will be far more likely to walk out the meeting with, say, a 5% rise across the board than to walk out with a deal which only restores equal pay for people in your situation. That deal pass by union vote and the union members will continue to say that "well we didn't vote for the dual-payscale-system". They will be technically correct of course.


The fact that you will still be disadvantaged relative to them is useful to them. They can always use that in the future to stir up more unrest and as an example of how badly they are treated. When they aren't being badly treated - only a subsection is being badly treated. It serves their purpose to keep that status quo.



This is history repeating itself. As the History Queen, you should know this to be honest.



You say that you were still in college before you joined the profession. You were not stuck on a train track that you could not get off of. You presumably went and did your HDip and then got work. Even after doing the HDip, you could still have gone and done something else. If you are someone in your 20s with few restrictions then you have less excuses. If you were in your 50's after a career change, and then surprised with the new scale, then there is more scope for sympathy.




* This is merely a term describing how people are manipulated for a cause by others who drive the cause. They don't really care about you but they will pretend to do so in order to indoctrinate you and use you as leverage. Don't get your knickers in a twist please over the literal term. I did not make it up

There'll absolutely be no rise across the board.

There's now 10 years of underpaid teachers working in the system. Another 10 and the gvt will be halfway there.

Ultimately the unions could have and should have solved this 10 years ago by just refusing or striking.

Including it now is just lip service as younger teachers who the union need to join don't feel particularly enamoured by the organisation that sold them down the river before they were even employed.

Basically they wanted to say something about Covid but knew they had to fire in the old pay equality thing to keep people happy.

They've no intention of doing anything about it.

Midlife

jimwallace197 wrote: »

So many of ye on here all day every day, god knows how ye actually manage to get any proper work done.

Yeah, cause boards is pretty much representative of all teachers.

Sure they could have just stuck a poll up here instead of the whole ballot thing.

You sound angry

FeirmeoirtTed

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Oh come off it, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were determined at all cost not to suffer any reduction in their salaries whatsoever and they sold out new entrants as a result in the middle of a recession when plenty of other people were losing their jobs and livelihoods.

Typical of the type of me feiner attitude that exists amongst teachers which makes ye so easily dislikable.

Look at how ye all back each other up on this thread thanking each others posts continually in the hope that ye might convince the public that ye are not one of the most overpaid, self serving, hypocritical bunch of public sector workers there is.

Pathetic

Look pal some people are whinging dislikeble asre holes they whinge about a profession because they haven't the mental fortitude to achieve the necessary points nor the patience empthy or compassion to pursue the profession instead the go on boards and whinge about the profession being overpaid and dislikeable and self serving. Id call someone like that many names but il take the more high ground.
I would agree however that new entrant teachers were most definitely sold out by their senior colleagues and that has created a problem, they most definitely did know that new entrants were start on a lower salary which is why many new entrants were very disgruntled given the 2 tier pay only became apparent when they entered the profession.

FeirmeoirtTed

FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »

Look pal some people are whinging dislikeble asre holes they whinge about a profession because they haven't the mental fortitude to achieve the necessary points nor the patience empthy or compassion to pursue the profession instead the go on boards and whinge about the profession being overpaid and dislikeable and self serving. Id call someone like that many names but il take the more high ground.

What metric are you using to measure “ more” ground and how many points are necessary to have an opinion? I’m confident I met that threshold.

Donald Trump

FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »

Look pal some people are whinging dislikeble asre holes they whinge about a profession because they haven't the mental fortitude to achieve the necessary points nor the patience empthy or compassion to pursue the profession instead the go on boards and whinge about the profession being overpaid and dislikeable and self serving. Id call someone like that many names but il take the more high ground.

I'm interested to learn about these "necessary points". Where could I find out some information on these? Are they in some statue or perhaps union regulation?
They must be fairly special given that only teachers can manage to obtain them somehow.


As to the second part of your statement, I fully agree that unions protected existing by shafting newbies. That is why I cannot have any time for them. But I will say that most people on the lower scale would have been aware of the existence of the lower scale before they took on full time employment. The didn't find out 6 months later

FeirmeoirtTed

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm interested to learn about these "necessary points". Where could I find out some information on these? Are they in some statue or perhaps union regulation?
They must be fairly special given that only teachers can manage to obtain them somehow.


As to the second part of your statement, I fully agree that unions protected existing by shafting newbies. That is why I cannot have any time for them. But I will say that most people on the lower scale would have been aware of the existence of the lower scale before they took on full time employment. The didn't find out 6 months later

Leaving cert points you know the level playing field where you work hard in school to acheive the required points for your course and ultimtely your career or the postgraduate where you again meet the academic requirements pass the interviews and college exams pay a **** load of money and become a teacher, and then have to read all about how lazy self serving and unlikeable you are according to strangers on the Internet.
I don't know many 18 year old who check the salary scales of senior colleagues in their first year of a 4 year degree and compare it to what they will receive, most pick a career because they feel it something they are passionate bout or would enjoy. again I agree with you here the unions most definitely sold out future teachers whether their backs were to the wall or not, younger teachers have paid the price.

FeirmeoirtTed

Dav010 wrote: »

What metric are you using to measure “ more” ground and how many points are necessary to have an opinion? I’m confident I met that threshold.

Typo not more "moral" high ground as in refusing to call posters asre holes and the like for the constant teacher bashing.

FeirmeoirtTed

Donald Trump wrote: »

hmmmmmmmmmm. I was not aware that there were special points though that teachers had to get?


I was under the impression that teachers generally do a regular undergraduate degree and then do a HDip. There are of course BEd degrees for primary, but there are also postgraduate conversion courses that a lot of people take. I didn't expect that you would need some special "points" for those.


If you are a secondary teacher, how many points more than your classmates did you need to get in order to study that subject as a potential teacher?


That is of course for the teacher who want to do those things. Technically, there are not mandatory qualifications to act as a teacher. Is that not correct? There is an unqualified rate, no? It is of course unlikely that you would get a job without them, but it is not impossible in theory, to be a teacher and not have a HDip (or even a degree) for example. As is evidence by them being separate add-on items on the official payscale. At least on the older payscale as I think the undergrad degree has been subsumed into the base salary.


Edit: Just to ask you, seeing as how you brought it up, what is the official cut-off minimum for points for a LC student in 2020 that wanted to become a teacher? I just want to know what this cutoff was that all the bitter people couldn't reach.

There are no " special points " there re just the points needed to get into a course you want to do and that apply to all courses and future professions. Its not a secret club its all very transparent check out education.ie everyone has a choice as to what job they wish to pursue, you weigh up the pros and the cons and then decide. Yes you can apply for a postgraduate course in both primary or secondary but you must have a primary honours degree and have the requirement for example honour irish in the leaving cert.
There is an unqualified teaching rate but in reality that applies to student teachers who have been garda vetted and are studying teaching nowadays, back many moons ago people with a primary degree but not hdip in primary or secondary might have been employed but that day has passed. The only reason an unqualified teacher would be teaching a class is if there is no available qualified sub and the unqualified teacher will in my experience be student teacher doing a post grad in education.
The undergrdute cao points ranging back from 2000 to 2020 have steadily increased from
.410 to 495 this year. The problem as I see it is that bitterness is a one way street I love my job every aspect of it except the chip on the shoulder teacher hating complainers who I meet one or two of every yer in real life and see constantly complaining on threads here bout how easy we have it how overpaid we are and how unlikeable we are. The same people wouldn't last week in a classroom of 30 kids in a normal year let lone with all this covid stuff happening. And no none of us want a fcukjng medal for going into work or even a thank you just one thread on here that doesnt descend into a teacher bashing frenzy.

Glad you clarified that, I got enough points in my Leaving Cert to qualify to have an opinion on this thread.

FeirmeoirtTed

Dav010 wrote: »

Glad you clarified that, I got enough points in my Leaving Cert to qualify to have an opinion on this thread.

Anyone can have an opinion just stop whinging about public sector conditions if you chose to go into the private sector, you had a choice so did I. I accept and make the best of my choices, I see friends making double what I'm earning in the private sector and more power to them, il never be rich but il have a comfortable home for my family and an enjoyable job. Where does all the bitterness for teachers come from?

JustAThought

FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »

Anyone can have an opinion just stop whinging about public sector conditions if you chose to go into the private sector, you had a choice so did I. I accept and make the best of my choices, I see friends making double what I'm earning in the private sector and more power to them, il never be rich but il have a comfortable home for my family and an enjoyable job. Where does all the bitterness for teachers come from?

June, July & August.

Donald Trump

FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »

There are no " special points " there re just the points needed to get into a course you want to do and that apply to all courses and future professions. Its not a secret club its all very transparent check out education.ie everyone has a choice as to what job they wish to pursue, you weigh up the pros and the cons and then decide. Yes you can apply for a postgraduate course in both primary or secondary but you must have a primary honours degree and have the requirement for example honour irish in the leaving cert.

Don't worry about it. I deleted the post long before you responded to it because I didn't want to bother getting into it. Fed up with the ranting on this thread from teachers.



You made some remark about your imagined bitterness of others against teachers because the bitter ones didn't get the points to become one.



There are no special points for teachers. Anyone who went to college and did a degree could easily enough move into teaching (possibly after a HDip). There is not an insurmountable magic barrier of points to stop one from becoming a teacher should they wish to do so. It is unlikely that anyone that you might be referring to did not have "enough points". I'm not saying they had more than you - just that if they wanted to become a teacher they could have done a course with low points entry and still worked through to become a teacher if they wanted to!