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ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

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    #1232
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,857 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    There are no " special points " there re just the points needed to get into a course you want to do and that apply to all courses and future professions. Its not a secret club its all very transparent check out education.ie everyone has a choice as to what job they wish to pursue, you weigh up the pros and the cons and then decide. Yes you can apply for a postgraduate course in both primary or secondary but you must have a primary honours degree and have the requirement for example honour irish in the leaving cert.




    Don't worry about it. I deleted the post long before you responded to it because I didn't want to bother getting into it. Fed up with the ranting on this thread from teachers.



    You made some remark about your imagined bitterness of others against teachers because the bitter ones didn't get the points to become one.



    There are no special points for teachers. Anyone who went to college and did a degree could easily enough move into teaching (possibly after a HDip). There is not an insurmountable magic barrier of points to stop one from becoming a teacher should they wish to do so. It is unlikely that anyone that you might be referring to did not have "enough points". I'm not saying they had more than you - just that if they wanted to become a teacher they could have done a course with low points entry and still worked through to become a teacher if they wanted to!


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    #1233
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Look pal some people are whinging dislikeble asre holes they whinge about a profession because they haven't the mental fortitude to achieve the necessary points nor the patience empthy or compassion to pursue the profession

    Hmmm, points don’t matter any more?
    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Anyone can have an opinion

    Do you not think the teachers are doing their fair share of whinging?


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    #1234
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Don't worry about it. I deleted the post long before you responded to it because I didn't want to bother getting into it. Fed up with the ranting on this thread from teachers.



    You made some remark about your imagined bitterness of others against teachers because the bitter ones didn't get the points to become one.



    There are no special points for teachers. Anyone who went to college and did a degree could easily enough move into teaching (possibly after a HDip). There is not an insurmountable magic barrier of points to stop one from becoming a teacher should they wish to do so. It is unlikely that anyone that you might be referring to did not have "enough points". I'm not saying they had more than you - just that if they wanted to become a teacher they could have done a course with low points entry and still worked through to become a teacher if they wanted to!
    you must be joking me right the rantings of teachers on here?? Pull the other one. Yeah its a handy job to get into alright collect 5 crisps packs and off you go.
    I already laid out and acknowledged the ways you can get into the job im not putting myself or any other teacher on a pedestal. I don't think any of us are better than you or anyone else, I said I made a conscious choice and I'm not imagining the bitterness it plain to be seen in numerous post here from numerous contributors. so what would explain the bitterness? Holidays, pay, hours, lack of qualification or unsuitable personality for the job. The same barriers to teaching as every other job really.
    And its as likely they didn't get the points is it is likely they did. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
    But as you acknowledge there are many routes to teaching, I think most of the bitterness is bourne from childhood experience, school is very different today to 20 years ago and its all the better for it.


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    #1235
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Hmmm, points don’t matter any more?



    Do you not think the teachers are doing their fair share of whinging?

    Tell me what are they whinging about?


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    #1236
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Look pal some people are whinging dislikeble asre holes they whinge about a profession because they haven't the mental fortitude to achieve the necessary points nor the patience empthy or compassion to pursue the profession instead the go on boards and whinge about the profession being overpaid and dislikeable and self serving. Id call someone like that many names but il take the more high ground.
    I would agree however that new entrant teachers were most definitely sold out by their senior colleagues and that has created a problem, they most definitely did know that new entrants were start on a lower salary which is why many new entrants were very disgruntled given the 2 tier pay only became apparent when they entered the profession.

    Disclaimer, I left school after junior cert it was at the time and am not in a profession where I need to write etc since, however I have children and your level of spelling etc would be of concern to me if you were teaching them, can you explain?


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    #1237
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    you must be joking me right the rantings of teachers on here?? Pull the other one. Yeah its a handy job to get into alright collect 5 crisps packs and off you go.
    I already laid out and acknowledged the ways you can get into the job im not putting myself or any other teacher on a pedestal. I don't think any of us are better than you or anyone else, I said I made a conscious choice and I'm not imagining the bitterness it plain to be seen in numerous post here from numerous contributors. so what would explain the bitterness? Holidays, pay, hours, lack of qualification or unsuitable personality for the job. The same barriers to teaching as every other job really.
    And its as likely they didn't get the points is it is likely they did. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
    But as you acknowledge there are many routes to teaching, I think most of the bitterness is bourne from childhood experience, school is very different today to 20 years ago and its all the better for it.

    You think criticism of ASTI members threatening to strike now is related to childhood experience at school? Personally I had a positive experience.


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    #1238
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Widdensushi wrote: »
    Disclaimer, I left school after junior cert it was at the time and am not in a profession where I need to write etc since, however I have children and your level of spelling etc would be of concern to me if you were teaching them, can you explain?

    Really? Case in point here. I have gigantic man fingers and tiny phone it impacts my spelling, also sometimes when I'm saying someone is acting like an areshole I deliberately misspell it mixing up letters so said areshole can read the word, no matter what level of eduction they have. But yeh there's no bitterness to teachers on this thread,I must be imagining it all.


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    #1239
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You think criticism of ASTI members threatening to strike now is related to childhood experience at school? Personally I had a positive experience.

    Its related to many things, I'm glad you had a positive experience though so did I.


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    #1240
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Its related to many things, I'm glad you had a positive experience though so did I.

    A lot of parents want their kids to have a better education than they did, I don’t think it is a wise strategy to be condescending toward those that are unhappy about the prospect of their kids being off school and as a consequence them being off work to look after them, by insinuating that they are not intelligent enough to have an opinion. Lots of high achievers had bad experiences at school, and I know plenty of intelligent, and indeed successful people who didn’t sit their leaving certs.


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    #1241
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Dav010 wrote: »
    A lot of parents want their kids to have a better education than they did, I don’t think it is a wise strategy to be condescending toward those that are unhappy about the prospect of their kids being off school/them being off work to look after them, by insinuating that they are not intelligent enough to have an opinion. Lots of high achievers had bad experiences at school, and I know plenty of intelligent, and indeed successful people who didn’t sit their leaving certs.
    I want the same for my children and I will make sure thay get that as their parent. What makes you think children will be off school? The main argument unions were making was for more transparent reporting of covid cases in schools that will benefit everyone,more contact tracing in schools will help curb community transmission. So of the smartest people I know have no degrees I agree with you. I put up a list of reasons for bitterness towards teachers not having the necessary academic qualifications seems a plausible one to me its not meant as an insult.
    My response to the spelling police and questioning my professionalism was a veiled one but whats good for the goose ....


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    #1242
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So unions made an agreement to also protect new entrants when cuts were coming? :confused:

    They had to choose what to protect in negotiations and they threw new entrants under the bus

    You're just showing your ignorance of the situation now.


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    #1243
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    ..............., il never be rich but il have a comfortable home for my family and an enjoyable job. ...............

    You don't support the strike so?


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    #1244
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Really? Case in point here. I have gigantic man fingers and tiny phone it impacts my spelling, also sometimes when I'm saying someone is acting like an areshole I deliberately misspell it mixing up letters so said areshole can read the word, no matter what level of eduction they have. But yeh there's no bitterness to teachers on this thread,I must be imagining it all.

    If this is the level needed to be a teacher then it's a pay reduction we should be looking for, obviously you are not representative of the majority as the teachers I have come in contact with are very professional, there really should be a bonus, penalty system in place rather than the get the job, nearly impossible to get the sack from the pensionable job system we have.


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    #1245
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Augeo wrote: »
    You don't support the strike so?

    Would you support the introduction of more testing and clearer guidelines on close contacts which would make your school a safer place for teachers and students?
    I do support that as do I support the introduction of equal pay for new entrants, I don't envisage any union going on strike nor would I like to see a strike advocated for and as the ASTI themselves have said that is unlikely to happen but had to put it on the ballot.


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    #1246
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Widdensushi wrote: »
    If this is the level needed to be a teacher then it's a pay reduction we should be looking for, obviously you are not representative of the majority as the teachers I have come in contact with are very professional, there really should be a bonus, penalty system in place rather than the get the job, nearly impossible to get the sack from the pensionable job system we have.

    Bitterness = pay and pensionable job.
    I'm very professional im just sick of the same whinging nonsense, and seeing how we are both making judgements about each other here I'd imagine you make a lot of judgements about every teacher you've had the pleasure to interact with those interactions have not always been pleasant because of your obvious bias.


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    #1247
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    ............ those interactions have not always been pleasant because of your obvious bias.

    The teacher could never have been the issue? Never?

    And you reckon there's obvious bias :pac:


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    #1248
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    Would you support the introduction of more testing and clearer guidelines on close contacts which would make your school a safer place for teachers and students?..........

    Most definitely

    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    I do support that as do I support the introduction of equal pay for new entrants.............

    No, I think the current payscales for new entrants is adequate remuneration for the roles. It is less then ideal that there are two payscales but you have to start somewhere when there was too much wages being paid :)


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    #1249
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Augeo wrote: »
    The teacher could never have been the issue? Never?

    And you reckon there's obvious bias :pac:

    Well if you are accusing a teacher of being unprofessional because of their spelling, complaining about their wages and their inability to be sacked and questioning their entitlement to a pensionable job in one post then yes im going to say that bitterness will taint all your interactions with teachers, now there's a chance your right and the teacher might be the problem but its a hypothetical and I'm judging it based on what has been said here. The bias seems skewed one.


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    #1250
    FeirmeoirtTed
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭FeirmeoirtTed


    Augeo wrote: »
    Most definitely




    No, I think the current payscales for new entrants is adequate remuneration for the roles. It is less then ideal that there are two payscales but you have to start somewhere when there was too much wages being paid :)

    We will have to disagree with the latter point so, doesnt actually affect me but I do feel sorry for collegeues who qualified the same year bit are on less wages, doesn't seem fair really.


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    #1251
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FeirmeoirtTed wrote: »
    We will have to disagree with the latter point so, doesnt actually affect me but I do feel sorry for collegeues who qualified the same year bit are on less wages, doesn't seem fair really.

    That may be true, but when the negotiations for restoration started, the unions were offered the chance to prioritise new entrants but instead opted to restore pay across the board.


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    #1252
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,078 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Are you claiming the teachers unions didn't negotiate anything related to Croke Park and just accepted what the government came with?

    As History Queen pointed out:
    History Queen wrote: »
    This article from 2012 outlines it pretty well. It criticises the teachers unions for not protecting new entrants however, it is also pointed out that the Croke Park Agreement did not sanction the cutting of new teachers pay. It was a unilateral decision made by government after the agreement was made.

    https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/two-tier-salary-scale-spells-trouble-in-the-classroom-as-new-teachers-take-a-hit-28901922.html

    The pay cuts for new entrants (across the public sector, not just teachers) were not part of Croke Park or any other agreement, they were not negotiated, they were unilaterally imposed by the government AFTER existing staff were already locked into an agreement.

    BTW a union can't go on strike for its possible future members. It has to wait until people are recruited under the new terms and then try to negotiate equal pay for them.

    It's a big issue in teaching because of two things, teachers got allowances which were stopped for new entrants, and there was actual recruitment into teaching - almost everywhere else had a hiring freeze for years.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #1253
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,078 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    jimwallace197 wrote: »
    Oh come off it, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were determined at all cost not to suffer any reduction in their salaries whatsoever

    Apart from the three rounds of pay cuts on all public servants. FFS. :rolleyes:

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #1254
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,078 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That may be true, but when the negotiations for restoration started, the unions were offered the chance to prioritise new entrants but instead opted to restore pay across the board.

    Wow were you a party to the negotiations or something? :rolleyes:

    Actually the pay restoration was targeted at the lowest paid, and the pay scales have also been brought closer together, but there are still two pay scales. You can't negotiate what the other side is refusing to concede.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #1255
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Apart from the three rounds of pay cuts on all public servants. FFS. :rolleyes:

    Why do PS’s keep going on about pay cuts during the recession as if they were unique? Yes, we know PS’s took a pay cut, so did virtually every other private sector worker. Surely you are not going to start on about “pay restoration” rather than pay rises.

    Can you give an example of any other sector where equal scaled pay is guaranteed for people doing the same job, but starting 10 years apart?


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    #1256
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,078 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Why do PS’s keep going on about pay cuts during the recession as if they were unique?

    Why do people keep denying that there were any public sector pay cuts at all?

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #1257
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Why do people keep denying that there were any public sector pay cuts at all?

    Who denied the PS took a pay cut during the recession? Anyone who did so is ill informed.


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    #1258
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There could well be more paycuts looming ..........


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    #1259
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Augeo wrote: »
    There could well be more paycuts looming ..........

    *Pay restorations

    Restored to 2013 pay.

    ;)


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    #1260
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Treppen wrote: »
    You're just showing your ignorance of the situation now.

    No ignorance was the teacher I was having a discussion with that believed that the teachers unions couldn't have expected new teachers would face pay cuts if the unions chose to only protect existing teachers.


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    #1261
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    As History Queen pointed out:

    The pay cuts for new entrants (across the public sector, not just teachers) were not part of Croke Park or any other agreement, they were not negotiated, they were unilaterally imposed by the government AFTER existing staff were already locked into an agreement.

    BTW a union can't go on strike for its possible future members. It has to wait until people are recruited under the new terms and then try to negotiate equal pay for them.

    It's a big issue in teaching because of two things, teachers got allowances which were stopped for new entrants, and there was actual recruitment into teaching - almost everywhere else had a hiring freeze for years.

    'It wasn't in the agreement' is such a weak attempt at face saving with plausible deniability. Unions and existing teachers knew exactly what was going to come from that agreement and they didn't care. They protected themselves, as is their right, stop trying to gas-light now.


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