ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

square ball

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

At the time in England all we ever heard about was 'levels'. The pressure to constantly be moving up levels was horrendous. No account made for personal or societal circumstances of the student. At the PT meetings that was all parents wanted to know. Nothing about friendships or how their child was getting on socially with their peers.

There is a reason why in England over 50% of graduates leave teaching within 4/5 years.
In my PGCE group 6 never worked as teachers after graduation and 13 of them never want to have a class of their own. Happy to just do supply as they have none of the pressure, on teach whatever they are told to do and away home. That is from a PGCE group of 49.

What percentage of qualified Irish teachers leave the profession within first 5 or 10 years?

wirelessdude01

square ball wrote: »

What percentage of qualified Irish teachers leave the profession within first 5 or 10 years?

That I don't know.

Personally every friend of mine who qualified in Ireland is still working. Quite a few of us worked in other sectors before retraining. Now that is a relatively small number.

Two friends of mine who were lecturers at 3rd level left for opportunities that presented themselves in private industry.

History Queen

Foxtrol wrote: »

'It wasn't in the agreement' is such a weak attempt at face saving with plausible deniability. Unions and existing teachers knew exactly what was going to come from that agreement and they didn't care. They protected themselves, as is their right, stop trying to gas-light now.

No they didn't. Give over.

manonboard

History Queen wrote: »

No they didn't. Give over.

I think thats a very false or very non believed statement. I knew the entrants to the teaching profession were getting the shaft, and i have barely any interest in these subjects, and that was also when i was a 24 year old.
Everyone knew the deal, the existing teachers get what they wanted, and the government gets what they want by creating a second tier of Lower paid entrants which would not be defended.
This was very common knowledge, and talked about in average joe circles.

History Queen

manonboard wrote: »

I think thats a very false or very non believed statement. I knew the entrants to the teaching profession were getting the shaft, and i have barely any interest in these subjects, and that was also when i was a 24 year old.
Everyone knew the deal, the existing teachers get what they wanted, and the government gets what they want by creating a second tier of Lower paid entrants which would not be defended.
This was very common knowledge, and talked about in average joe circles.

I was in college at the time. It was widely considered (amongst teachers) to be a bad deal for teachers in general and was eventually reluctantly accepted to savethe pensions of those near retirement amd to prevent redundencies. Which is why ( to the best of my recollection) the TUI and ASTI were the last unions to sign ut. I believe some 300 teachets jobs were threatened with redundency. There was never a conscious decision to shaft new entrants. It didn't happen.

I'm bowing out of this thread now and ye can knock yereselves out rewriting the past.

Edited to add article from the time broadly outlining the state of play

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/teachers-to-work-extra-hour-as-union-accepts-croke-park-deal-1.567038

Foxtrol

History Queen wrote: »

No they didn't. Give over.

History Queen wrote: »

I was in college at the time. It was widely considered (amongst teachers) to be a bad deal for teachers in general and was eventually reluctantly accepted to savethe pensions of those near retirement amd to prevent redundencies. Which is why ( to the best of my recollection) the TUI and ASTI were the last unions to sign ut. I believe some 300 teachets jobs were threatened with redundency. There was never a conscious decision to shaft new entrants. It didn't happen.

I'm bowing out of this thread now and ye can knock yereselves out rewriting the past.

Edited to add article from the time broadly outlining the state of play

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/teachers-to-work-extra-hour-as-union-accepts-croke-park-deal-1.567038

Yes, they protected themselves, which they were entitled to do.

If you were in college at the time you clearly weren't paying attention to the discussions about what was in the agreement and what the impact would be. I've already posted a link to an article where teachers were complaining about a 2 tier 'yellow pack' system right after the vote to accept the deal.

I'm not sure why you're so insistent on this fairy tale that these very experienced trade union negotiators didn't possibly understand what they were lining up to happen to new entrants... It isn't credible at all and no matter what face saving lies they peddle, it is a fact that your colleagues and union shafted you by protecting the existing members.

jrosen

Im pretty sure my FIL retired early due to the risk of his pension being affected.

Lillyfae

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/teachers-seek-morale-boosting-early-christmas-holidays-to-reduce-covid-risks-39760736.html

A TEACHERS’ union has called for a “morale-boosting” early Christmas break for schools after a nine-month struggle through Covid-19.

The Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) said it would also allow more time to staff and students to restrict their movements before meeting elderly or vulnerable relatives for festive gatherings.

Education Minister Norma Foley yesterday ruled out finishing the term on Friday, December 18, rather than the following Tuesday, unless public health advice changed.

Speaking at the Oireachtas Education Committee, she said it was “not our intention at this stage, at all, to extend the Christmas break” and that it was “important that schools finish out the term”.

But the TUI later said “serious consideration” should be given to the proposal.

It is the only one of the three teacher unions to issue a formal call for an early holiday, although this has been the subject of discussion within both the Irish National Teachers’ Organisation (INTO) and Association of Secondary Teachers’ Ireland (ASTI), where there are differing views.

The TUI said it would be a positive signal of the Department’s intention to protect the wellbeing of all in the school community, while also allowing a longer lead-in time before meeting vulnerable relatives, should public health advice allow such family gatherings.

TUI general secretary Michael Gillespie said recent months had been “unprecedentedly difficult and draining for school communities”.

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He said: “Thanks to the remarkable work of staff, schools have remained open through all levels of restrictions, including Level 5.”

But Mr Gillespie said stress and anxiety levels remained extremely high as a result of a range of worries and concerns that were not imaginable this time last year.

“This has been an extraordinarily intensive working period, and staff and students are far more fatigued than they would be during a ‘normal’ school year.

“In this regard, the short extension of the Christmas closure period that we are advocating would be a significant and much-needed boost to the morale of all concerned.”

Mr Gillespie said there was “much well-intentioned theorising about the concept of wellbeing in schools, but this would be a real, tangible action that could benefit all in the school community”.

“It could also prove to be a ‘stitch in time’ measure that helps prevent longer absences due to burnout and exhaustion later in the school year.”

Earlier, ASTI president Ann Piggott said there were arguments on both sides of any proposal to close early for Christmas.

She said the matter had been raised within the Principals’ and Deputy Principals’ Committee of the ASTI.

“They have been working incessantly since early last year to get schools ready to keep them open, and I do want to thank them and their hard work has to be acknowledged.

Speaking on Newstalk’s Pat Kenny Show, Ms Piggott said the main argument in favour of the idea was a medical argument.

“There are grandparents and parents around this country who want to see extended family over Christmas. If children finish school earlier, it would actually mean that people can be safer.

“They wouldn’t be gathering with hundreds of others in a closed setting. If they were to exhibit symptoms, they would come before Christmas Day, so people could actually feel safe in knowing that they could spend time with their grandchildren who might not be sick; who might not be carrying the virus. That would be the main medical argument.”

She said when students finish school before Christmas, they would be at home with their families “and then seven days later I think it might be safe enough for their grandparents to see them and meet them, and that’s what everybody in the country wants”.

But she cautioned that it needed “widespread consultation with parents, student bodies, the second-level student body and all stakeholders to see if this is a possibility and to see how the Class of 2021 will not be disadvantaged by this”.

Labour Education spokesperson Aodhán ӒRiordáin raised the issue of an early closure with Ms Foley at the Oireachtas Education Committee.

Mr ӒRiordáin pointed to the huge amount of work that had been, and was being, done in schools and said an argument may be made for an earlier break.

The minister acknowledged the work that was being done by all involved, but said she was also very mindful that the calendar had been agreed with parents and that students were much better served when they were in school.

“I appreciate the goodwill with which you raised the suggestion, but at this point in time I will follow public health advice that things are operating within schools and, at this point, that is where I would stand in relation to that.”

Ms Foley returned to the topic in a subsequent exchange and said “from our point of view, for all the reasons previously outlined, it is not our intention at this stage at all to extend the Christmas break”.

She said she was very mindful of the importance of children being in school. “That is something we have articulated every step of the way, even at Level 5, to ensure schools open,” she said. adding that “It is important that schools would finish out the term in that respect.”

You'd wonder who the children are.

Jokers .............

ASTI president Ann Piggott:

"They have been working incessantly since early last year to get schools ready to keep them open, and I do want to thank them and their hard work has to be acknowledged."

Brazen lies. What planet is Ann living on? This sense of entitlement needs to be nipped in the bud. Working incessantly from April - July? A kick in the teeth to those of us who have actually worked hard in the interim, others forced out of employment and on to PUP. Not a reduction in salary for a single teacher despite extended periods of idleness. Piggott's tone-deaf comment will only alienate any sympathy towards teachers further, and yes they have been doing an outstanding job in difficult circumstances since late August.

beggars_bush

Augeo wrote: »

Jokers .............

maybe actually form a coherent response?

the teachers point is well made. Other countries are closing schools and moving to remote teaching and online work.
We've kept the schools open.

They are entitled to argue a point for their members.

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

maybe actually form a coherent response?

..........

Jokers is quite coherant.
To elaborate ......... Ms Piggott said the main argument in favour of the idea was a medical argument............. that is bullsh1t, the motivation is ...............

"Earlier, ASTI president Ann Piggott said there were arguments on both sides of any proposal to close early for Christmas.

She said the matter had been raised within the Principals’ and Deputy Principals’ Committee of the ASTI.

“They have been working incessantly since early last year to get schools ready to keep them open, and I do want to thank them and their hard work has to be acknowledged."

Acknowledgement in the form of extra time off.

blanch152

beggars_bush wrote: »

maybe actually form a coherent response?

the teachers point is well made. Other countries are closing schools and moving to remote teaching and online work.
We've kept the schools open.

They are entitled to argue a point for their members.

Other countries with far more Covid cases than ours.

Northern Ireland closed their schools for an extra week at mid-term and saw their cases shoot up.

The evidence is that controlled environments where there is proper ventilation and maintained social distancing are better for preventing the spread of Covid. The experience of third level where replacing on-site lectures with house parties has proved to be a disaster is another example of this. There is an emerging argument that following Level 5, we should open non-essential retail, restaurants, pubs and colleges but ban all household visits as this would be much better to control Covid-19.

Enforced L3 is likely better then the current L5 tbh when all is considered. The level 3 restrictions worked eventually ......... I reckon Tony forced the government to go L5 as he wouldn't STFU.

astrofool

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/teachers-seek-morale-boosting-early-christmas-holidays-to-reduce-covid-risks-39760736.html



You'd wonder who the children are.

If they came with a balanced ask, e.g. close early for xmas, but we'll add the days back in June, or have reduced easter holidays, then it's much more credible.

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/teachers-seek-morale-boosting-early-christmas-holidays-to-reduce-covid-risks-39760736.html



You'd wonder who the children are.

I'm presuming the TUI considering teachers had no idea about this

Lillyfae

khalessi wrote: »

I'm presuming the TUI considering teachers had no idea about this

The TUI are representing teachers, not any other worker. Your union = your mouthpiece.

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

The TUI are representing teachers, not any other worker. Your union = your mouthpiece.

Not mine dear

Dav010

It appears the ASTI does not have a monopoly in Union stupidity.

CrabRevolution

beggars_bush wrote: »

maybe actually form a coherent response?

the teachers point is well made. Other countries are closing schools and moving to remote teaching and online work.
We've kept the schools open.

They are entitled to argue a point for their members.

But the ASTI statement makes no mention of remote teaching or online work. They're asking for no teaching and no work, just holidays.

On top of that, we've been outperforming nearly every country in europe in terms of covid rates and deaths over the last 2 months so maybe we're doing something right.

blanch152

astrofool wrote: »

If they came with a balanced ask, e.g. close early for xmas, but we'll add the days back in June, or have reduced easter holidays, then it's much more credible.

Exactly, and there would be a good argument for that, if Covid is as seasonal as people think.

In fact, there is a strong argument that if we have to live with Covid for a few years, major changes to the school year are needed in order to shorten summer holidays and lengthen winter ones.

My heart goes out to teachers.

They were unable to teach full time since March until start of Autumn term.
Not long back (6 weeks?) , they were forced to go on a 2 week mid term break, and only back a week, teachers in my kids school were forced to go on a training day, closing the school again.

These are very difficult conditions to work under, and I'll fully support any teacher picketing, by happily working from home, rather than having to take annual leave to demonstrate my support as would be the case preCovid.

MikeOxsgreen

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

My heart goes out to teachers.

They were unable to teach full time since March until start of Autumn term.
Not long back (6 weeks?) , they were forced to go on a 2 week mid term break, and only back a week, teachers in my kids school were forced to go on a training day, closing the school again.

These are very difficult conditions to work under, and I'll fully support any teacher picketing, by happily working from home, rather than having to take annual leave to demonstrate my support as would be the case preCovid.

The mid term break is three weeks. Christmas holidays are a month. Easter is 40 days and nights.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The mid term break is three weeks. Christmas holidays are a month. Easter is 40 days and nights.

I 'd swear my poor crathers only got 2 weeks off for Halloween mid term

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1119/1179062-teachers-trade-unions-oireachtas/

"Primary teachers' union the Irish National Teachers' Organisation has called for teachers and all those who work in schools to be prioritised for receipt of a Covid-19 vaccine when one becomes available.

General Secretary John Boyle has said such a move would give great reassurance to families and would give teachers confidence."


Now they want to take vaccines from doctors, nurses, dentists, meat factory workers, the elderly, nursing home workers, care assistants and those who actually put their lives at risk to give teachers priority.

Bubbaclaus

To paraphrase 'the Brits are at it again' meme:

The Teacher's Unions are at it again.

khalessi

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1119/1179062-teachers-trade-unions-oireachtas/

"Primary teachers' union the Irish National Teachers' Organisation has called for teachers and all those who work in schools to be prioritised for receipt of a Covid-19 vaccine when one becomes available.

General Secretary John Boyle has said such a move would give great reassurance to families and would give teachers confidence."


Now they want to take vaccines from doctors, nurses, dentists, meat factory workers, the elderly, nursing home workers, care assistants and those who actually put their lives at risk to give teachers priority.

Actually frontline workers are already entitled to the vaccine, so teachers are not taking it off anyone, all the people you referenced are already entitled to it.

Since teachers are referred to as frontline workers by government TDs but not treated equally when it comes to being considered a close contact or testing and not entitled to the flu vaccine either, the least they can do is ask.

wirelessdude01

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1119/1179062-teachers-trade-unions-oireachtas/

"Primary teachers' union the Irish National Teachers' Organisation has called for teachers and all those who work in schools to be prioritised for receipt of a Covid-19 vaccine when one becomes available.

General Secretary John Boyle has said such a move would give great reassurance to families and would give teachers confidence."


Now they want to take vaccines from doctors, nurses, dentists, meat factory workers, the elderly, nursing home workers, care assistants and those who actually put their lives at risk to give teachers priority.

Ohh you are nothing but consistent with the digs.

Hotblack Desiato

My son in primary will be in school 21st and half day 22nd, I guarantee you they will do absolutely f**k-all in that day and a half. It's pointless bringing in the kids for it.

Schools finishing on the 18th gives everyone (kids, parents - not just teachers) the possibility of a week without contacts before seeing elderly relatives etc. on Stephens' Day onwards.

Make up the days later if absolutely necessary but to me it makes complete sense to close the schools on the 18th (and no I am not a teacher and not related to one either, I'm working on the 24th and back on the 29th :rolleyes: )

Dav010

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My son in primary will be in school 21st and half day 22nd, I guarantee you they will do absolutely f**k-all in that day and a half. It's pointless bringing in the kids for it.

Schools finishing on the 18th gives everyone (kids, parents - not just teachers) the possibility of a week without contacts before seeing elderly relatives etc. on Stephens' Day onwards.

Make up the days later if absolutely necessary but to me it makes complete sense to close the schools on the 18th (and no I am not a teacher and not related to one either, I'm working on the 24th and back on the 29th :rolleyes: )

And the parents who have to work on the 21st and 22nd, should they leave their children at home alone?

There was a representative for the parents association on Ireland AM this morning, she said the parents contacting them were unanimously against the schools closing. A point well made was that school is not just about learning, it is about structure, kids being with their friends, enjoyment etc.

Honestly, when I heard the head of the TUI going on about the stress, the sacrifices, the emotion of having to alter the way teachers work, it was enough to make you puke. As if all other workers aren’t going through the same things, when it was put to Mr Gillespie, the best he could come up with was that these are well thought out, meaningful proposals.