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Prisons & Sentencing in Ireland

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    #62
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Most criminals know there is no prison space so unless you kill someone the judge will give you a suspended sentence .
    The biggest problem is not to start laughing when the free legal solicitor is telling some cock and bull story about how you’ve changed your ways and your really really sorry . Lol.

    You forgot what with him being a "family man" and how is doing a FAS course to improve his situation, like he is going to find the cure for cancer next week or something.

    Seriously its not fair on some poor student doing their best who didnt get enough marks for University or an IT and had to take some second rate FAS course. Then to have some criminal doing the same course with no intention of doing anything other to dodge going to the 'Joy. At least it bulks out the probation officers file.


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    #63
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Mark25 wrote: »
    I know people want prison to be harder but do you really think that?

    Do you really want there to be no heat or not get food?

    And isnt it better doing some type of course that might just lead to a job after getting out than just leaving prisoners stuck in their cell or hanging around all day?:

    Prison should be the very basics we can get away with without breaking human rights laws. No smoking. No fizzy drinks. No chocolate. No treats. Extremely bland basic food that provides the daily recommended nutrients. Plain uniforms should be provided along with cheap sandals. Any prisoner stepping out of line should be dealt with quickly, aggressively, and hard. Leave no doubt who is in charge. Cells should have a toilet, a sink and a thin mattress, nothing else. IF a prisoner behaves he should be allowed request a book from the library. If anything happens to the book, prisoner should be charged with destruction/defacement of government property and another year or so be added to his sentence. All visits should be behind perspex/glass screens. No contact whatsoever. I'm sure there is some government work that can be done for the bare minimum pay to keep hands from being idle.


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    #64
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Most criminals know there is no prison space so unless you kill someone the judge will give you a suspended sentence .
    The biggest problem is not to start laughing when the free legal solicitor is telling some cock and bull story about how you’ve changed your ways and your really really sorry . Lol.

    Shure isnt catch and release great? You know if you get them off, they will be back in 6 weeks with another case for something similar. The best bit about it is the tax payer will pick up the bill, so the criminals could do it again without consequence.


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    #65
    The Mighty Quinn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭The Mighty Quinn


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    If anything happens to the book ... another year or so be added to his sentence

    :rolleyes:

    Destroying a full set of Harry Potter books would be equivalent to a rape sentence in that case.


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    #66
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Mark25 wrote: »
    I know people want prison to be harder but do you really think that?
    :

    We may not able to solve the prison system from the inside out but.....

    Hypothetically a solicitor costs about €500 an hour and he put in 10 hours work reviewing case material (we all know he doesnt but it sounds like what a solicitor would say). If a convicted felon had to pay for it in €50 a week out of social welfare, would they change their behaviour.

    My thinking is that he might suffer it for the first two times but the third time, They would learn not to hang out with certain people or be in certain places.


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    #67
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    The Mighty Quinn wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Destroying a full set of Harry Potter books would be equivalent to a rape sentence in that case.

    I am more thinking of a 5ft bamboo cane, something they would be jealous of in Singapore.


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    #68
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    The Mighty Quinn wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Destroying a full set of Harry Potter books would be equivalent to a rape sentence in that case.

    Obviously I’d overhaul sentencing too. Things on the upper end of the scale would have mandatory sentences, no more corrupt judges giving out pathetic sentences. No more sentences running along side each other.

    Murder and manslaughter = life. Chance of parole after 25 years depending on behaviour.

    Rape, paedophelia = mandatory 15 years, rising depending on extent of crime. No parole.


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    #69
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Obviously I’d overhaul sentencing too. Things on the upper end of the scale would have mandatory sentences, no more corrupt judges giving out pathetic sentences.

    Its not the judges fault if they have nowhere to put them. They also have to give sentences that cannot be appealed.


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    #70
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Its not the judges fault if they have nowhere to put them. They also have to give sentences that cannot be appealed.

    That’s a cop out. It’s not for the judge to decide there isn’t space.


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    #71
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Its not the judges fault if they have nowhere to put them. They also have to give sentences that cannot be appealed.

    it is the judges though ,

    they consistently assert that they must be independent and resist attempts by justice ministers to enforce mandatory sentences


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    #72
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    That’s a cop out. It’s not for the judge to decide there isn’t space.

    Where do you suggest they put them, until more prison places are built? There is no debate that our prison population has grown exponentially in the last 15 years that is out of line with our population growth.


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    #73
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Where do you suggest they put them, until more prison places are built? There is no debate that our prison population has grown exponentially in the last 15 years that is out of line with our population growth.

    The judges job is not to put them anywhere. Do you not understand? The judges job is to make sure they have a fair trial and then to sentence them. After sentencing it’s up to DoJ and IPS to put them somewhere.


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    #74
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    The judges job is not to put them anywhere. Do you not understand?

    I do but it is making a mockery of the Judges Judgement if he sentences a criminal for 3 years and he only serves 6 months because the Governor cannot find space due to overcrowding. The real issue is corruption with in the justice system across the board and poor spent public money.


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    #75
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    We most definitely don’t have enough prison space . The likes of these clients getting 2 years yesterday is a joke !

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-jails-brothers-for-two-years-for-pressuring-elderly-woman-into-buying-25000-worth-of-power-tools-39704215.html


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    #76
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    We most definitely don’t have enough prison space . The likes of these clients getting 2 years yesterday is a joke !

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-jails-brothers-for-two-years-for-pressuring-elderly-woman-into-buying-25000-worth-of-power-tools-39704215.html

    Two legitimate travelling salemen, did no wrong your honour. Where was their address? Rathkeale


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    #77
    nigeldaniel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Bureaucracy and the liberal media put an end to the plans for Thornton hall all those years ago. The government did want more prison spaces. Judges are tied to even more bureaucracy. The legal system at the bottom end with its appetite for compo cases and looking for loopholes is more to blame than judges.

    Dan.



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    #78
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    theguzman wrote: »
    There would be no need for extra prisons only buy a few metres of rope and some timber for a gallows, I don't care what circumstances were in play but anyone with 115 convictions etc should just be hung, no more repeat offending guaranteed and no €80k per prisoner per year cost either. We should be executing 500-1000 scumbags per year and the first that should be swung are the corrupt Judges and legal profession that have this country destroyed.

    As with most people proposing populist arguments in favour of the death penalty, you clearly haven't done any research into how much more expensive te death penalty actually is compared to a life sentence: 3x more expensive in the state of Maryland, and up to 18x more expensive in California.


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    #79
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    As with most people proposing populist arguments in favour of the death penalty, you clearly haven't done any research into how much more expensive te death penalty actually is compared to a life sentence: 3x more expensive in the state of Maryland, and up to 18x more expensive in California.

    because of the appeals process and the greed of the legal profession

    prove some one guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ,pass sentence then one swift appeal to make sure no mistakes were made followed by swift justice.
    Job Done

    why is does this not make sense to people ?


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    #80
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    because of the appeals process and the greed of the legal profession

    prove some one guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ,pass sentence then one swift appeal to make sure no mistakes were made followed by swift justice.
    Job Done

    why is does this not make sense to people ?

    Because the system you are proposing is simplistic in the extreme, with no fail-safes. If, 5 or 10 years later, some new evidence emerges, or some witness recants or some new forensic technique emerges, it would be no use, as the innocent prisoner would already be long since executed for the crime they hadn't actually committed.

    This isn't a hypothetical - the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, all of these guys - they would all long dead under the system you are proposing.

    It genuinely beggars belief that someone could have such a callous, blinkered view of human life, and be so oblivious to the risk of errors emerging in complex systems reliant on fallible human beings.


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    #81
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Because the system you are proposing is simplistic in the extreme, with no fail-safes. If, 5 or 10 years later, some new evidence emerges, or some witness recants or some new forensic technique emerges, it would be no use, as the innocent prisoner would already be long since executed for the crime they hadn't actually committed.

    This isn't a hypothetical - the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, all of these guys - they would all long dead under the system you are proposing.

    It genuinely beggars belief that someone could have such a callous, blinkered view of human life, and be so oblivious to the risk of errors emerging in complex systems reliant on fallible human beings.

    the trial and appeal is the fail safe , the extremes that prosecutions have to go through to secure a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt make that point.

    why keep looking if the sentence has already been carried out ? just a waste of time ,

    the examples you give are examples of political interference in the justice system and police corruption.

    It beggars belief that our society cant defend itself from those who choose to ignore the rules and take advantage of the weak.

    historically that wasn't the case


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    #82
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Because the system you are proposing is simplistic in the extreme, with no fail-safes. If, 5 or 10 years later, some new evidence emerges, or some witness recants or some new forensic technique emerges, it would be no use, as the innocent prisoner would already be long since executed for the crime they hadn't actually committed.

    This isn't a hypothetical - the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, all of these guys - they would all long dead under the system you are proposing.

    It genuinely beggars belief that someone could have such a callous, blinkered view of human life, and be so oblivious to the risk of errors emerging in complex systems reliant on fallible human beings.

    There was little to no evidence against either the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6.


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    #83
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    the trial and appeal is the fail safe , the extremes that prosecutions have to go through to secure a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt make that point.

    This assumes a completely infallible justice system where nothing could go wrong, where prosecution witnesses don't lie, where defence witnesses might be afraid to come forward, forenisic techniques are 100% accurate etc. This has been shown time and again not to be case.
    why keep looking if the sentence has already been carried out ? just a waste of time ,

    I don't know - ask the Birmingham Six. Or the Guildford Four. Or Rubin Carter, or any of the many hundreds of people who were wrongfully convicted - but at least weren't executed, and so were able to get some part of their lives back.
    the examples you give are examples of political interference in the justice system and police corruption.


    ... just as well that Ireland has never, ever had any evidence of police corruption, isn't it :rolleyes:

    My examples are from stable western democracies, which shows that a conviction can be unsafe anywhere.

    weldoninhio wrote: »
    There was little to no evidence against either the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6.

    In one case (I think it was the Birmingham Six), the police carried out a forensic test that showed traces of gelignite all over their hands - slam-dunk for the prosecution. It was only years later that it was shown that the test was completely unreliable - obviously the wrongfully-convicted men's lives were still ruined, but at least they got out of prison and got some (paltry) compensation; under Jeff's systems, they would have already been dead.


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    #84
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    This assumes a completely infallible justice system where nothing could go wrong, where prosecution witnesses don't lie, where defence witnesses might be afraid to come forward, forenisic techniques are 100% accurate etc. This has been shown time and again not to be case.



    I don't know - ask the Birmingham Six. Or the Guildford Four. Or Rubin Carter, or any of the many hundreds of people who were wrongfully convicted - but at least weren't executed, and so were able to get some part of their lives back.




    ... just as well that Ireland has never, ever had any evidence of police corruption, isn't it :rolleyes:

    My examples are from stable western democracies, which shows that a conviction can be unsafe anywhere.




    In one case (I think it was the Birmingham Six), the police carried out a forensic test that showed traces of gelignite all over their hands - slam-dunk for the prosecution. It was only years later that it was shown that the test was completely unreliable - obviously the wrongfully-convicted men's lives were still ruined, but at least they got out of prison and got some (paltry) compensation; under Jeff's systems, they would have already been dead.

    That was in the 70s. DNA etc has come an awful long way.


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    #85
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    That was in the 70s. DNA etc has come an awful long way.

    It wasnt the DNA that convicted them, it was glycerine under the finger nails. The concentration that it was could have been from washing up liquid rather than Nitro-Glycerine. Corrupt Government laboratories.


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    #86
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    It wasnt the DNA that convicted them, it was glycerine under the finger nails. The concentration that it was could have been from washing up liquid rather than Nitro-Glycerine. Corrupt Government laboratories.

    Again that was the 70s. Would never stand up in a court today.


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    #87
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    That was in the 70s. DNA etc has come an awful long way.
    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Again that was the 70s. Would never stand up in a court today.

    You're missing the point entirely: in the 1970s, this was cutting-edge technology, and I'm sure many people thought it was foolproof. If the UK had have brought back hanging to punish the Four and Six (and there were populist protests demanding exactly that), all ten would be dead by the time that new data emerged that threw the accuracy of the test into doubt.

    Forensic processes these days are no different - they are revised and improved upon all the time.

    Anyway, if we were to reintroduce the death penalty, we would have to leave the EU - I doubt that the people demanding bloody retribution would go so far as to commit economic suicide to being it about.


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    #88
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    nigeldaniel wrote: »
    Bureaucracy and the liberal media put an end to the plans for Thornton hall all those years ago. The government did want more prison spaces. Judges are tied to even more bureaucracy. The legal system at the bottom end with its appetite for compo cases and looking for loopholes is more to blame than judges.

    The idea of locating the Central Mental Hospital beside Thornton Hall certainly didn't help! The 2008 economic crisis probably was the final nail in the coffin.


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    #89
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I do but it is making a mockery of the Judges Judgement if he sentences a criminal for 3 years and he only serves 6 months because the Governor cannot find space due to overcrowding. The real issue is corruption with in the justice system across the board and poor spent public money.

    Isn't the docking of unpaid fines from people's salaries or social welfare patients or bank accounts supposed to be reducing the number of prisoners?


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    #90
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    political analyst wrote: »
    Isn't the docking of unpaid fines from people's salaries or social welfare patients or bank accounts supposed to be reducing the number of prisoners?

    its not because its not happening ,


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    #91
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    This assumes a completely infallible justice system where nothing could go wrong, where prosecution witnesses don't lie, where defence witnesses might be afraid to come forward, forenisic techniques are 100% accurate etc. This has been shown time and again not to be case.



    I don't know - ask the Birmingham Six. Or the Guildford Four. Or Rubin Carter, or any of the many hundreds of people who were wrongfully convicted - but at least weren't executed, and so were able to get some part of their lives back.




    ... just as well that Ireland has never, ever had any evidence of police corruption, isn't it :rolleyes:

    My examples are from stable western democracies, which shows that a conviction can be unsafe anywhere.




    In one case (I think it was the Birmingham Six), the police carried out a forensic test that showed traces of gelignite all over their hands - slam-dunk for the prosecution. It was only years later that it was shown that the test was completely unreliable - obviously the wrongfully-convicted men's lives were still ruined, but at least they got out of prison and got some (paltry) compensation; under Jeff's systems, they would have already been dead.

    evidence gathered and witnesses statements as well and any available evidence is how our system and most systems work , and in capital cases it is exhaustive , extremely exhaustive. ever see what a murder investigation file looks like ? it could take up a small room.

    Birmingham six and Guilford 4 has already been answered as for Ruben carter you should read up on it , it seems that he did it regardless of what bob Dylan thinks

    concentrate on modern day for the sake of this so most recently , Arron Brady , proven beyond a reasonable doubt regardless of fleeing the state lying having his family and friends intimidate witnesses and did it out of greed and because he though he would get away with it , he deserved to die for his crime, to prevent the possibility of escape and endangering other innocent people and to save us from paying for the rest of his life ,
    I would argue that he forfeited his entitlements to human rights.

    as an example a murder on cctv where there is no question of guilt would you still be against it ?


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