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Prisons & Sentencing in Ireland

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    #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Yeah.
    I have seen scumbags get off and great men get sent to prison for years. I didnt study law, I always felt if I didnt bother the law it wouldnt bother me. So I have dealing with neither the Police nor criminals.

    How would you compensate a small business man for losing a weeks work and disgruntled suppliers and customers. Maybe his business is built around a relationship or specialist skill that cannot be replicated or substituted? Yet he has to close up shop and potentially lose customers. How would you guarantee they would not get caught in a complex murder trial? What about taking high skill workers out of the economy/public service? How would you compensate a student taking a week off from University, possibly missing labs?


    Theres very few guarantees in life...

    "Essential" service providers can get a letter from their employer to excuse them. Students can rearrange/defer or more frequently be simply excused if their studies would be affected.

    As i said , certain self employed people need better supports - possibly including being excused, or being able to provide alternative, but if their ability to earn a living will be affected, they can also be excused. No big deal.

    Farmers will be the first in line for state subsidies, so supports such as state funded farm helpers might assist them, should they wish not to "get out of it".

    But to claim juries are composed of only the clever unemployed, and those stupid enough not to be able to get out of it is absutrky false.

    Many see it as a civic responsibility, essential to the administration of justice. And don't try "get out of it".


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    #123
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Many see it as a civic responsibility, essential to the administration of justice. And don't try "get out of it".

    My missus is mad to do it to get out of shop for the day. She gets called on average every 2.5 years but never serves. She is dying to serve. She is just trying to escape the banality of the shop and because she didn't get to go to law school. My life is interesting enough thank you.

    I dont know anyone else who is eager to serve. These cases are rarely Perry Mason stuff. Its more like :
    Johnny Ward lives on a halting site with 203 convictions for burglary was caught with stolen goods and DNA evidence was found at the scene. He has had a hard upbringing and was stealing because he couldnt find work to supplement his social welfare to feed his 9 kids. Social workers reports, Guards reports, detained, questioned, arrested, charged, off to the joy for 6 months but its two weeks and everyone is home for tea at 6pm.

    I have much better things to do with my time.


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    #124
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

    Farmers will be the first in line for state subsidies, so supports such as state funded farm helpers might assist them, should they wish not to "get out of it".

    You clearly know nothing about farmers or farming.


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    #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    My missus is mad to do it to get out of shop for the day. She gets called on average every 2.5 years but never serves. She is dying to serve. She is just trying to escape the banality of the shop and because she did get to go to law school. My life is interesting enough thank you.

    I dont know anyone else who is eager to serve. These cases are rarely Perry Mason stuff. Its more like :
    Johnny Ward lives on a halting site with 203 convictions for burglary was caught with stolen goods and DNA evidence was found at the scene. He has had a hard upbringing and was stealing because he couldnt find work to supplement his social welfare to feed his 9 kids. Social workers reports, Guards reports, detained, questioned, arrested, charged, off to the joy for 6 months but its two weeks and everyone is home for tea at 6pm.

    I have much better things to do with my time.

    You seem to have an issue with me refuting your claim!
    I dont know one thing about you, your life or your auld dolls. I'm sure you can find plenty to do with yourself in your time.

    Your case above probably would be dealt with summarily.. but anyway your very point gives evidence to your lack of knowledge of the law, yet you're very quick out of the blocks dismissing those willing to see justice done, as dullards or fools.
    If you know FA about something, maybe consider how you present your opinions?

    More likely Johnny Ward lives on a farm and raped his younger sister on the 4th of June, 15 and 16th July in a cow shed, and on the 23rd of September in the family car outside the house, forced her into oral sex on the 25th December, and here is Mary hoping to get justice, having waiting a few years, with the family riven apart, hoping not everyone is trying to get out of seeing her get her justice, because they've things to do.


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    #126
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You clearly know nothing about farmers or farming.

    Correct me...


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    #127
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Correct me...

    Farmers are very particular, they have their way and ways of doing things. The vast majority of them would not like hired help on their property and just have their own way of doing things and know the intricacies of their own equipment and how to correct it when it goes wrong.

    I grew up on a farm, I have uncles farming that is the way they are. The only time farmers bring in someone is when they are really stuck or cannot manage the work load to bring in contractors.

    That one wont fly with the farming community. My own uncle got sick of being called so just went to the doctor to write him a sick note to get out of it. Start making people pay their own legal fees and see court cases drop.


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    #128
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Farmers are very particular, they have their way and ways of doing things. The vast majority of them would not like hired help on their property and just have their own way of doing things and know the intricacies of their own equipment and how to correct it when it goes wrong.

    I grew up on a farm, I have uncles farming that is the way they are. The only time farmers bring in someone is when they are really stuck or cannot manage the work load to bring in contractors.

    That one wont fly with the farming community. My own uncle got sick of being called so just went to the doctor to write him a sick note to get out of it. Start making people pay their own legal fees and see court cases drop.

    Completely agree with all of your post except the last line.

    Do you believe that if people had to pay their own legal cases, crime would drop and following that legal cases do? Do you believe only rich people should be able to commit crime?


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    #129
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    If you know FA about something, maybe consider how you present your opinions?

    More likely Johnny Ward lives on a farm and raped his younger sister on the 4th of June, 15 and 16th July in a cow shed, and on the 23rd of September in the family car outside the house, forced her into oral sex on the 25th December, and here is Mary hoping to get justice, having waiting a few years, with the family riven apart, hoping not everyone is trying to get out of seeing her get her justice, because they've things to do.

    You think I want to hear about that? Have that going through my head? What kind of individual willing goes to court hoping to be selected for that case? That is the last think I want to hear about and I dont consider it to be my "civic" duty. I am not Johnny Wards peer. This is probably because I was fortunate to have grown up without this stuff. I have never known anyone with these issues in their family.


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    #130
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Completely agree with all of your post except the last line.

    Do you believe that if people had to pay their own legal cases, crime would drop and following that legal cases do? Do you believe only rich people should be able to commit crime?

    I believe for any small infraction, the Free Legal aid solicitor is going to bill the state €500 an hour for 10 hours work (reports, time preparing and time in court), so €5000 does not seem like an extraordinary amount? If you lost €5000 on any day of the week it would temper your resolve. If you dont have to pay your legal fees, got a council house, on social anyways, no standing in the community ...... you can do what ever you like.... Its not like you have anything to lose?


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    #131
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,462 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I believe for any small infraction, the Free Legal aid solicitor is going to bill the state €500 an hour for 10 hours work (reports, time preparing and time in court), so €5000 does not seem like an extraordinary amount? If you lost €5000 on any day of the week it would temper your resolve. If you dont have to pay your legal fees, got a council house, on social anyways, no standing in the community ...... you can do what ever you like.... Its not like you have anything to lose?

    you do know that the fees payable for legal aid are public information? I'mnot sure where you got your figure of 500 an hour from but i imagine it can be quite smelly. the full set of fees can by found via the link on this page http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/ProceduresGoverningPaymentOfCriminalLegalAidFees


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    #132
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you do know that the fees payable for legal aid are public information? I'mnot sure where you got your figure of 500 an hour from but i imagine it can be quite smelly. the full set of fees can by found via the link on this page http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/ProceduresGoverningPaymentOfCriminalLegalAidFees

    I was told anytime you talk to a solicitor in a formal capacity they will want to see €500 upfront. I have tried to read the document (circa pages 29 onwards), I genuinely dont understand the numbers, is that monies paid to the solicitor in compensation by the state? is that the client pays a minor amount and then the rest is paid for by the state?

    Please forgive my ignorance. I barely skim over the court pages and dont socialise with law enforcement or criminals.


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    #133
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I was told anytime you talk to a solicitor in a formal capacity they will want to see €500 upfront. I have tried to read the document (circa pages 29 onwards), I genuinely dont understand the numbers, is that monies paid to the solicitor in compensation by the state? is that the client pays a minor amount and then the rest is paid for by the state?

    Please forgive my ignorance. I barely skim over the court pages and dont socialise with law enforcement or criminals.

    do you believe in the presumption of innocence?


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    #134
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    do you believe in the presumption of innocence?

    I do but I also believe if you have attracted the attention of a law officer there is something going on there. I always address an officer in the street appropriately and never court their attention. If you seek their attention in an inappropriate fashion you are kind of special. The vast moral majority have no need to attract their attention.


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    #135
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,462 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I was told anytime you talk to a solicitor in a formal capacity they will want to see €500 upfront. I have tried to read the document (circa pages 29 onwards), I genuinely dont understand the numbers, is that monies paid to the solicitor in compensation by the state? is that the client pays a minor amount and then the rest is paid for by the state?

    Please forgive my ignorance. I barely skim over the court pages and dont socialise with law enforcement or criminals.

    the relevant fees for solicitors are in appendix 1 on page 29.


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    #136
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,462 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I do but I also believe if you have attracted the attention of a law officer there is something going on there. I always address an officer in the street appropriately and never court their attention. If you seek their attention in an inappropriate fashion you are kind of special. The vast moral majority have no need to attract their attention.

    you manage to contradict yourself in the same sentence. impressive


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    #137
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I do but I also believe if you have attracted the attention of a law officer there is something going on there. I always address an officer in the street appropriately and never court their attention. If you seek their attention in an inappropriate fashion you are kind of special. The vast moral majority have no need to attract their attention.

    Then you fundamentally don't believe in presumption of innocence.

    Imagine as an innocent person, being put in the position of wondering whether you should sanction a report to use in a trial that would prove your innocence, but deciding not to in case you are found guiilty and have to pay for it.

    You are proposing (and I don't think you mean to) that only rich people will have the best defence and poor people who may be innocent could be found guilty due to fear of payments.


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    #138
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Then you fundamentally don't believe in presumption of innocence.

    Imagine as an innocent person, being put in the position of wondering whether you should sanction a report to use in a trial that would prove your innocence, but deciding not to in case you are found guiilty and have to pay for it.

    You are proposing (and I don't think you mean to) that only rich people will have the best defence and poor people who may be innocent could be found guilty due to fear of payments.

    Isnt that always the way in life? You get what you pay for? You pay €5000 for a car dont be surprised if it lasts the year? Pay €60k you get an Audi? Have a medical card get on the waiting list, have VHI/Laya a slot just opened next week that is life. Well if you know you are innocent you will have no fear of being proven innocent.

    I am guessing (I have never been to court and the focus of attention), that a Free legal aid solicitor is the lesser prefered option?


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    #139
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Isnt that always the way in life? You get what you pay for? You pay €5000 for a car dont be surprised if it lasts the year? Pay €60k you get an Audi? Have a medical card get on the waiting list, have VHI/Laya a slot just opened next week that is life. Well if you know you are innocent you will have no fear of being proven innocent.

    I am guessing (I have never been to court and the focus of attention), that a Free legal aid solicitor is the lesser prefered option?

    No its the same solicitor or barrister that you would get if you paid top dollar (in a criminal case).


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    #140
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,462 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Isnt that always the way in life? You get what you pay for? You pay €5000 for a car dont be surprised if it lasts the year? Pay €60k you get an Audi? Have a medical card get on the waiting list, have VHI/Laya a slot just opened next week that is life. Well if you know you are innocent you will have no fear of being proven innocent.

    I am guessing (I have never been to court and the focus of attention), that a Free legal aid solicitor is the lesser prefered option?

    No. The guys who do free legal aid normally do a LOT of it. they know what they are doing. Do you think that you get a solicitor assigned to you when you apply for legal aid?


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    #141
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you manage to contradict yourself in the same sentence. impressive

    Why is it, its always the same morons calling the police pigs get stopped and searched? I believe that people in certain businesses get a 6th sense of what is going on in their surrounding.

    Give you an example the wife (manager in another shop) and myself were out shopping and she spotted someone taking and concealing something in the shop. She pointed it out to me. Then I saw it afterwards with another item. She said she had been watching that person ahead of us and she could tell before the woman picked up an concealed the item. Notice I didnt use the "shop lifting" term? She could have paid for it later, we didnt pursue the matter.

    She had a feeling by observing the other person. I wouldnt know I am not in retail and I dont shop lift either.


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    #142
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    No. The guys who do free legal aid normally do a LOT of it. they know what they are doing. Do you think that you get a solicitor assigned to you when you apply for legal aid?

    I have no idea, never been the focus of the judicial system.


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    #143
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    No its the same solicitor or barrister that you would get if you paid top dollar (in a criminal case).

    So which side of the courtroom do you sit on?


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    #144
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    So which side of the courtroom do you sit on?

    Barristers in Ireland can be prosecution in one case (if on DPP Panel) and defence in the other.


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    #145
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    No. The guys who do free legal aid normally do a LOT of it. they know what they are doing. Do you think that you get a solicitor assigned to you when you apply for legal aid?

    Yeah but surely there are different grades of solicitors? Like I am sure its going to cost a lot more to get Gerald Keane and co to come and defend you than it is to get some guy working over a book shop down a side street?


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    #146
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Barristers in Ireland can be prosecution in one case (if on DPP Panel) and defence in the other.

    You are a barrister?


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    #147
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You are a barrister?

    haha yes.


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    #148
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    joeguevara wrote: »
    haha yes.

    That is genuine, I am lucky enough in life never to have needed a solicitor. Have you ever met a recurring client and thought "WTF has he done now?". You know the name and already you have formed the opinion? You have you anonymity so you can be honest.


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    #149
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,462 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Yeah but surely there are different grades of solicitors? Like I am sure its going to cost a lot more to get Gerald Keane and co to come and defend you than it is to get some guy working over a book shop down a side street?

    It doesn't matter for legal aid. the legal aid fees are fixed


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    #150
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    That is genuine, I am lucky enough in life never to have needed a solicitor. Have you ever met a recurring client and thought "WTF has he done now?". You know the name and already you have formed the opinion? You have you anonymity so you can be honest.

    You never ask about guilt or innocence. One of the first cases I ever had, the clients father and the client immediately admitted guilt in a cosnultation with me and I told them I couldn't represent them as I could not put forward a defence of innocence.


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    #151
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It doesn't matter for legal aid. the legal aid fees are fixed

    But you wouldnt get Gerald Keane et al taking on a FLA client? its usually a certain type of solicitor?


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