Boxing Thread 30/10 (Usyk-Chisora, Santa Cruz-Davis, Inoue-Maloney, Munguia-Johnson)

walshb

I actually have a feeling that it will be as easy as AJ walking thru Usyk to catch him clean to hurt and take him out...

Unless Usyk runs and ducks and dives and spoils for the night...losing a wide points decision..

squinn2912

Morrison J wrote: »

I think that's a bit unfair on Parker. I thought Parker was doing quite well on the outside making Joshua miss and looking to slip inside to do work. The ref kept breaking them up when they came together inside though so Parker didn't have a prayer of sustaining any offense. Still thought Parker won a fair few rounds though and I thought Joshua looked quite poor being unable to pin him down even though the ref gave him every advantage.

The prevailing wisdom on here seems to be that Joshua will just walk him down, trap him and score a relatively straight forward knockout. I just think people are overrating Joshua here and maybe being a bit deceived by how well he's been matched moving up the levels if they think it'll be that easy. This is a pretty big step up for him and a nightmare style match up. Nothing straightforward about it at all.

You do have a point about the ref he wouldn’t allow Parker anything. Still I thought he showed zero ambition only to survive. What a way to give away a world title. Truthfully I thought he gave it away against Hughie. Anyhow there’s a chance for Usyk to survive the fight of course but I don’t think he’s strong enough to do that. Chisora is a very strong man granted but Usyk didn’t like it at all when he roughed him up. I think Joshua can use his strength, power, mobility and reach advantages over him.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

I actually have a feeling that it will be as easy as AJ walking thru Usyk to catch him clean to hurt and take him out...

Unless Usyk runs and ducks and dives and spoils for the night...losing a wide points decision..

The problem with that is Usyk is a slow starter, and as we saw against Bellew and others he is hittable. I think Joshua, unlike Chisora, will land clean at some stage with a powerful combo and the fight will be over.

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

The problem with that is Usyk is a slow starter, and as we saw against Bellew and others he is hittable. I think Joshua, unlike Chisora, will land clean at some stage with a powerful combo and the fight will be over.

I am glad you brought up Bellew....I had planned to.

He is a lot different than Chisora in terms of actual decent and thought out and skilled offence, and he landed a fair deal on Usyk throughout.... Lasted into mid to later rds, and was ahead I believe.....Tony freaking Bellew, and all 200 + flabby lbs....

AJ is far bigger than Bellew all over, and won't be fighting as cutely and sneakily as Bellew....AJ will be ramming home hard and long powerful punches....he will find Usyk far cleaner than Bellew....

This for me is going to be an early type blast out, assuming AJ commits, which I have no reason to believe that he won't....

And, even a less than aggressive version of AJ can still bang hard and keep Usyk on the retreat and defensive all night, with the power to really hurt.

Remember, Usyk may well have a decent chin, but 215 or so lbs absorbing shots from a big 245 lbs man who can bang........a chin is NOT just a chin.....this is juts a word.....a boxer's whole body and makeup go into absorbing heavy shots....neck, head, shoulders, torso, legs etc; and a boxer's actual mass and weight distribution

Tyson was 218 lbs, and I would be hugely confident that he takes AJs shots, because Mike's whole makeup meant he had a very sturdy chin to absorb power punches....I am not yet ready to claim this for Usyk.

Think Lopez-Loma here.....except that Usyk is not near as good defensively as Loma....

As an aside, Bellew would last no more than 3 rds vs. AJ

eagle eye

People seem to be forgetting how well AJ looked in the last fight against Ruiz.
We can go on about how fit or unfit Ruiz was but Joshua was a changed man, slimmed down, faster and looked more like the fighter he was in his amateur days as regards speed and workrate.

The Joshua that we seen last time out beats Usyk handy in my opinion. The more heavily built, slower AJ from before then might have problems getting to Usyk and could lose on points if he doesn't catch him.

walshb

I see no issue with any "version" of AJ getting to Usyk

The one that clearly got to a big and strong and cute Wlad...was boxing with Wlad all the way, and then closed the show....

I will take that Wlad as being a far trickier assignment than Usyk....

eagle eye

walshb wrote:

I will take that Wlad as being a far trickier assignment than Usyk....

That was a 41 year old Wlad. Wlad was living off his reputation for the best part of five years beating bums.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

That was a 41 year old Wlad. Wlad was living off his reputation for the best part of five years beating bums.

I am aware of his age..

Still a trickier and more dangerous assignment than a 34 year old CW weighing 215 or so lbs.

eagle eye

walshb wrote:

Still a trickier and more dangerous assignment than a 34 year old CW weighing 215 or so lbs.

I definitely do not agree with that. The old man has a punchers chance, the younger man can win on points.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

I definitely do not agree with that. The old man has a punchers chance, the younger man can win on points.

Wlad had a punchers and points chance..

Wlad back then was a tougher task than Usyk today..

FFS, Usyk has done nothing at HW.

Saturday night was a nothing. Can’t at all even use it to bolster him. Chisora is truly that dreadful, yet he still gave Usyk a lot of fight and trouble.

eagle eye

walshb wrote:

Wlad had a punchers and points chance..
Wlad back then was a tougher task than Usyk today..

I completely disagree. Wlad had no hope of a points win.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

I completely disagree. Wlad had no hope of a points win.

No hope?

Why?

Their fight was very closely fought throughout...

Not sure what you mean here...

Many picked Wlad to win on points an/or via KO..

Wlad was ahead on one judge’s card..

Morrison J

eagle eye wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting how well AJ looked in the last fight against Ruiz.
We can go on about how fit or unfit Ruiz was but Joshua was a changed man, slimmed down, faster and looked more like the fighter he was in his amateur days as regards speed and workrate.

The Joshua that we seen last time out beats Usyk handy in my opinion. The more heavily built, slower AJ from before then might have problems getting to Usyk and could lose on points if he doesn't catch him.

I wasn't that impressed tbh. Safety first approach against a fighter completely out of shape. Routine stuff really.

Ruiz threw 261 punches against Joshua. He offered nothing.

Usyk threw 939 against Gassiev, 848 against Briedis, and 905 against Hunter. He’s a significantly higher output fighter than anyone Joshua has faced and we've seen Joshua gas out before.

Ruiz also just followed Joshua around for the most part. Usyk will intelligently cut off the ring, which is mentally fatiguing for an opponent. This fact, along with his punch output and constant feints, will tire out AJ imo. Think it might actually play out similarly to the Bellew fight. Joshua takes a few early rounds behind a jab but tires under the Usyk pressure later on.

walshb

But you need to factor in that AJ is far far more dangerous than a flabby Bellew....

I can't see it going similar at all to that fight...

walshb

I am still a bit baffled by eagle eye's claim that Wlad had "no hope" of beating AJ on points...

I must have missed the build up and predictions and assessments for that fight....

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

But you need to factor in that AJ is far far more dangerous than a flabby Bellew....

I can't see it going similar at all to that fight...

I think the flow of the fight will be similar. AJ will look half decent early, Usyk will takeover later as his opponent tires.

I wouldn't read too much into Bellew landing on Usyk. Was clear Usyk didn't really respect his power and was willing to eat some shots so that he could set a high pace knowing Bellew would gas. Bellew couldn’t get Usyk’s respect early on with those counter right hands and the writing was on the wall from then really.

Against AJ though I'd imagine Usyk will rely more on in-and-out movement & making angles like he did against Gassiev. Not letting the puncher set his feet. He’ll be much harder to hit and I can see Joshua, who doesn't have the greatest ring IQ, getting a bit confused and struggling to figure him out probably leading to fatigue late on.

Coneygree

Joshua moves like he's stuck in porridge. Chisora is fat sack of average but he is mobile for a big lad, a decent swarmer. Only thing I'd take from the fight is that Usyk can be hit handily enough on the inside but he can take a punch well. Joshua is a different kettle of fish but again, Joshua doesn't baptise lads like Wilder, he tends to break them down. I don't know will Usyk be there to bit hit cleanly enough for him to drop and stay down. Usyk rides punches exceptionally well, even when hit clean he tends to be angling away from a punch. That's a huge thing he has going for him.

I'd be looking at Joshua's condition against Pulev. If he reverts back to turbo bubble gut Joshua then he and his team clearly have learned nothing. He came in light for Ruiz II and it was very wise.

walshb

We just really need these fights to happen....

Fury/AJ/Wilder/Usyk sometime in the next 6-12 months......

nacho libre

Joshua might not have great foot work, but he has fast enough hands and contrary to the assertion that he doesn't have great ring iq, he proved against Wlad that he actually had. Joshua won't have to worry about gassing, as he'll get to Usyk, and when he does he will hurt him. It's one thing riding punches from a plodder like Chisora, but Joshua hits harder- he may not possess the one punch ko power of Wilder, but enough to hurt Uysk when he connects cleanly. Joshua will win by tko inside 4 rounds

selectamatic

eagle eye wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting how well AJ looked in the last fight against Ruiz.
We can go on about how fit or unfit Ruiz was but Joshua was a changed man, slimmed down, faster and looked more like the fighter he was in his amateur days as regards speed and workrate.

This is it 100% but so many refuse to acknowledge this.

Coneygree wrote: »

Joshua moves like he's stuck in porridge.

Except he didn't in his last fight.

He moved extremely well for a muscular 6ft6 237lbs HW. And did so for all 12rds and looked like he'd do 5 or 6 more if he had to.

But as you say it'll be very interesting to see the approach to pulev.

It should be a hybrid of ruiz II and also interspersed with heavy committed combinations which have the power to finish opponents. Like what we saw in the wlad fight and his stoppage of povetkin.

nacho libre wrote: »

Joshua might not have great foot work, but he has fast enough hands and contrary to the assertion that he doesn't have great ring iq, he proved against Wlad that he actually had.

Very true. And he does appear to be constantly willing to learn and adapt/improve his game.

walshb

AJs footwork is being as much underrated as Usyk’s, overrated!

Morrison J

nacho libre wrote: »

contrary to the assertion that he doesn't have great ring iq, he proved against Wlad that he actually had.

Did he? How?

He jabbed for a few rounds, threw the kitchen sink at him, failed to get him out of there, gassed horrendously, got dropped and then got extremely lucky that Wlad let him off the hook by not putting it on him when he was there for the taking. Joshua got very lucky that night and has fought far more cautiously since as a result.

Morrison J

I also wouldn't underestimate Usyk's power going into a Joshua fight. I know it's only Dave Allen but he was interviewed during the week and said Usyk hit him with a shot that made his legs go for the first time in 12 years. Allen has sparred Fury, Joyce, Joshua, fought Ortiz, Whyte & Price, so he’s been in with some massive punchers.

If Joshua goes in with an aggressive approach there's a very good chance he gets stung with a counter like he did in the first Ruiz fight and may not recover.

blade1

Morrison J wrote: »

Did he? How?

He jabbed for a few rounds, threw the kitchen sink at him, failed to get him out of there, gassed horrendously, got dropped and then got extremely lucky that Wlad let him off the hook by not putting it on him when he was there for the taking. Joshua got very lucky that night and has fought far more cautiously since as a result.

Give a tiny bit of credit at least :pac:

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Did he? How?

He jabbed for a few rounds, threw the kitchen sink at him, failed to get him out of there, gassed horrendously, got dropped and then got extremely lucky that Wlad let him off the hook by not putting it on him when he was there for the taking. Joshua got very lucky that night and has fought far more cautiously since as a result.

This is just ridiculous, and either shows no clue about how that fight went, or shows a real dislike of AJ; and I think it’s the latter, because surely you (an educated fight fan) couldn’t say that and really believe it.

That was a hell of a fight were both men gave their all and both men hurt and wobbled, both showing great heart, fitness and recovery. AJ gets the job done in a war of attrition, and the best you say is “he was very lucky.”

This is just downright ignorant and/or biased.

Would you say similar about Fury in the first Wilder fight?

Morrison J

blade1 wrote: »

Give a tiny bit of credit at least :pac:

I picked Wlad to win so don't get me wrong it was a good win and I was impressed in parts but there's a lot of revisionist history around that fight. Nobody mentions Joshua spitting his gumshield out in the mid rounds gasping for a break. He was there for the taking and Wlad failed to put his foot on the pedal and take him out.

Joshua for me has never been the same since that fight. Been far more cautious since. Boxed off the backfoot against Takam ffs. If people think he'll bowl over Usyk in a few rounds I'd love to see their explanation for him not bowling over Takam. I think the pre-Wlad Joshua would've had Takam out of there within 6 but it's all safety first now to protect that dodgy gas tank.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

This is just ridiculous, and either shows no clue about how that fight went, or shows a real dislike of AJ; and I think it’s the latter, because surely you (an educated fight fan) couldn’t say that and really believe it.

That was a hell of a fight were both men have their all and both men hurt and wobbled, both showing great heart, fitness and recovery. AJ gets the job done in a war of attrition, and the best you say is “he was very lucky.”

This is just downright ignorant and/or biased.

Would you say similar about Fury in the first Wilder fight?

Nah it's just how I saw it tbh. I came away from that fight seeing more flaws in Joshua than ever before. Obviously to be expected given how big of a step up it was but Wlad really should have won that fight had he put it on Joshua when he had him hurt. I don't see how that take is biased, it's just clearly what happened. Vitali came out after the fight and took the blame for telling Wlad to be patient and box Joshua when he was hurt instead of going for the kill. Thats where the fight was lost.

Fury was never spitting his gumshield out in desperation against Wilder. He got knocked down hard in the 12th but came back and dominated the rest of the round. There's no comparison there.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Nah it's just how I saw it tbh. I came away from that fight seeing more flaws in Joshua than ever before. Obviously to be expected given how big of a step up it was but Wlad really should have won that fight had he put it on Joshua when he had him hurt. I don't see how that take is biased, it's just clearly what happened. Vitali came out after the fight and took the blame for telling Wlad to be patient and box Joshua when he was hurt instead of going for the kill. Thats where the fight was lost.

Fair enough..

AJ was far from perfect in the fight, and I agree, that if Wlad had some balls and decent killer instinct, he may have gotten AJ out of there; but he did try somewhat.

AJ showed excellent resolve and heart and grit to hang in, recover, and most impressive of all, close the show emphatically when he got the chance..

So there absolutely is a comparison to Fury in Wilder 1. Both AJ and Fury showed heart, grit, resolve...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Fair enough..

AJ was far from perfect in the fight, and I agree, that if Wlad had some balls and decent killer instinct, he may have gotten AJ out of there; but he did try somewhat.

AJ showed excellent resolve and heart and grit to hang in, recover, and most impressive of all, close the show emphatically when he got the chance..

So there absolutely is a comparison to Fury in Wilder 1. Both AJ and Fury showed heart, grit, resolve...

Yeah no doubt AJ showed heart and I don't think he lacks at all in that category. I was talking in relation to ring IQ though and I don't see what AJ showed ring IQ wise in that fight tbh. He fought quite a brainless fight if anything for me. His best asset is his ability to finish when he has his opponent hurt and he showed that in the end. He's the best finisher in the division. Can't take that away from him.

I was speaking more about flaws. Yeah Fury and AJ both showed plenty of heart. Fury didn't show half as many flaws against Wilder as AJ did against Wlad though.

squinn2912

I can’t believe some of the things I’m reading here. I’d pick Wlad to ko usyk in 6 the way he is. Bellew himself said that if he fought aj he’d end up on a slab. Usyk has had two HW fights now and hasn’t looked convincing in either. I can see him making a good account of himself and bamboozling wilder certainly and would give fury an interesting fight but I feel that aj is just all wrong for him. Very quick ko.