Your New WHS Index

Wichita Lineman

Cheaters will cheat no matter what the system, just as in 'real life' we have fraudsters, con men and criminals.

The new system is in, it's worldwide and no amount of bleating about clubs limiting casual rounds will change that as they simply cannot restrict people handing in cards under the new rules.

Unless someone is actually 100% spotted cheating on the course - ie deliberately taking extra shots to inflate a score, deliberately writing down wrong scores or understating the amount of shots they took, kicking the ball out from the trees etc etc etc theres nothing anyone can do.

Ceepo

slingerz wrote: »

There are a few lads in my club registering 5/7 scores a week. There indexes have jumped around something fierce. One lad was a low as 6.4 and is now 8.7, with some variances it is definitely a bandits wet dream

Out of interested, does the club charge an admin fee for casual golf.

Or any other club for that matter.

My club charges €5.00 for casual round

DuckSlice

Ceepo wrote: »

Out of interested, does the club charge an admin fee for casual golf.

Or any other club for that matter.

My club charges €5.00 for casual round

My club charges a 5er also.

blue note

etxp wrote: »

Must be some prize if he decided to go for it after 21 rounds.

And not only that, when he decided to go for it, his -6 round was still factored into his handicap. If he had just given up another 5 hours another day before the important comp he could have had knocked that score out of his counting rounds.

People underestimate the effort required to cheat. And if someone is willing to go to those lengths, there's not much you can do about them. But 99% of the time, it's not people intentionally putting in bad scores. It's just their normal golfing life that they put in heaps of bad scores.

Wichita Lineman

There are some people at my club who would be better golfers if they put their time into their game that they put into whinging about other peoples scores.

DuckSlice

blue note wrote: »

And not only that, when he decided to go for it, his -6 round was still factored into his handicap. If he had just given up another 5 hours another day before the important comp he could have had knocked that score out of his counting rounds.

People underestimate the effort required to cheat. And if someone is willing to go to those lengths, there's not much you can do about them. But 99% of the time, it's not people intentionally putting in bad scores. It's just their normal golfing life that they put in heaps of bad scores.

By the sounds of it this man is intentionally doing it. I wonder does he only feature in the big ones.

callaway92

I know it's been asked here before, but what are the thoughts on clubs charging their members €5 for a casual round where they will be inputting a score to Golf Ireland.

I definitely think it's out of order to an extent. The only reasoning I can think of it is to at least push people off the idea of trying to go out willy-nilly to bump up their handicap cheaply on a daily basis.

Would also be curious if people are definitely taking the rules seriously (ie if you're playing a casual round for scoring purposes, are people just giving themselves/their partner putts etc and not treating it like a comp)

thewobbler

etxp wrote: »

By the sounds of it this man is intentionally doing it. I wonder does he only feature in the big ones.

By the sound of things, it’s Chinese Whispers.

There’s some odd creatures in this world. But a man who will happily play poorly for 20 rounds, while retaining the ability to turn it on in grandstand fashion for round 21, would require levels of coordination and patience, that would have much more suitable avenues in life than winning a couple of hundred Euro every 3 months playing golf.

cjfitz

I was against the €5 for the casual counting round but after seeing a couple of local guys’ recent casual games, I’m starting to think maybe this would slow the inflation down. Couple of interesting graphs attached.

finglashoop

85
85
77
84
88
86
86

im doing it wrong so, looking at that graph. new system gave me back shots (13.6>16.2) compared to old hcap

got rid of them fairly quickly and am down lower again to 13.1

big_drive

Has anyone come across a situation where a round which should count remains orange even after overnight update? This is the only round on record, new member

blue note

Can anyone suggest a system that's fair and can't be cheated though? We had a member in my previous club who I know was complained about to us (from another club). He was playing in the opens around the county during the week and sandbagging his rounds to get shots back. I think if he was going very well he'd keep going. If not, he'd make sure to miss the buffer. But playing 4 times a week, he'd get the guts of 2 shots back in a month.

The result was that his handicap was artificially high by a few shots. And he did win the Captains one year and was incredibly unpopular for doing so. I believe he's no longer in the club.

That was under the old system. The point is that any system is going to be based on the scores you submit. If someone takes extra shots on purpose no system conceivable is going to stop them inflating their handicap.

But the bigger point is that these people that do it to any sort of significant extent are rare. It's not an epidemic in the game, nothing close to it.

OEP

I was +4 on Saturday and +16 on Sunday. These wild scores can, and do happen. Particularly to high single figure golfers I find.

finglashoop

OEP wrote: »

I was +4 on Saturday and +16 on Sunday. These wild scores can, and do happen. Particularly to high single figure golfers I find.

id be the same

i suppose once this settles in and people have scores in you will see a flattening of the graph

cjfitz

OEP wrote: »

I was +4 on Saturday and +16 on Sunday. These wild scores can, and do happen. Particularly to high single figure golfers I find.

Absolutely, I know this myself. But a consistent 15-22 strokes increase on your best 8 is some achievement. I personally think that if any genuine golfer was in such a poor run of form that they would be avoiding the 3 or 4 casual counting scores per week and just play the regular Sunday competition as normal.

Gringuss

big_drive wrote: »

Has anyone come across a situation where a round which should count remains orange even after overnight update? This is the only round on record, new member

There won't be any 'counting' scores on the app until you've got 3 (54 holes) scores in for your first handicap allocation. You should check with your handicap sec to ensure they're ok with you inputting scores directly onto the app as opposed to submitted 3 cards and letting them input your first handicap allocation onto the record. If they're ok with you using the app - then one of your scores will turn green after you've got 54 holes played.

blue note

cjfitz wrote: »

Absolutely, I know this myself. But a consistent 15-22 strokes increase on your best 8 is some achievement. I personally think that if any genuine golfer was in such a poor run of form that they would be avoiding the 3 or 4 casual counting scores per week and just play the regular Sunday competition as normal.

Why would you not submit the casual scores? That's keeping your handicap artificially low. I want a low handicap, but I want it because that's how I'm playing. Not because I'm avoiding putting in all my scores unless I'm playing well.

slingerz

Ceepo wrote: »

Out of interested, does the club charge an admin fee for casual golf.

Or any other club for that matter.

My club charges €5.00 for casual round

There’s no charge and you have to sign in at the clubhouse each time

A few year ago when doing the teams he had 80+ counting competitions on his record

Russman

etxp wrote: »

It does sound like Chinese whispers, but reading it again I'm pretty sure me and Connachtman are talking about the same person, and the comps are a year apart with Free membership for the following year the prize.

I suppose any system is only as good as the people using it, and if some of them don't have integrity then they are going to abuse it.

@bluenote i agree its not a big issue but there is one or two in everyclub, and with the new system there is no hiding, people can see what they are doing. whether reporting it or not is worth the hassle is another thing.

Not to be argumentative, but what would you report ? "Joe had a load of bad rounds and then he played well one time" ? That's the story of golf since day dot. Even under the old system you were only "supposed" to play to your handicap once every seven rounds or something like that.
I don't doubt there are a couple of sandbaggers in most clubs, but how do you determine them over the 99% of golfers who mostly play sh1te and every so often play out of their skin ?

I think I think the new system is actually fairer and the more you play the more representative your index is. The old one was supposed to be your potential but the new one is actually what you're shooting. You can't legislate for the fella who is building a handicap, but I think you need to be quite serious about it under WHS, whereas with CONGU you could be a more "casual" bandit.

Meh, who knows.

mighty magpie

cjfitz wrote: »

I was against the €5 for the casual counting round but after seeing a couple of local guys’ recent casual games, I’m starting to think maybe this would slow the inflation down. Couple of interesting graphs attached.

that's unbelievable

DuckSlice

Russman wrote: »

Not to be argumentative, but what would you report ? "Joe had a load of bad rounds and then he played well one time" ? That's the story of golf since day dot. Even under the old system you were only "supposed" to play to your handicap once every seven rounds or something like that.
I don't doubt there are a couple of sandbaggers in most clubs, but how do you determine them over the 99% of golfers who mostly play sh1te and every so often play out of their skin ?

I think I think the new system is actually fairer and the more you play the more representative your index is. The old one was supposed to be your potential but the new one is actually what you're shooting. You can't legislate for the fella who is building a handicap, but I think you need to be quite serious about it under WHS, whereas with CONGU you could be a more "casual" bandit.

Meh, who knows.

I have no idea, you would have to prove it somehow and unless you have played with them and witnessed them deliberately miss shots i don't know how you would. Even then it would be your word against theirs.

cjfitz

mighty magpie wrote: »

that's unbelievable

A nice 15-22 shot increase for 12 rounds straight.

prawnsambo

cjfitz wrote: »

A nice 15-22 shot increase for 12 rounds straight.

They have to have hit the hard cap surely? It's five above your best HI in the last twelve months.

Rikand

prawnsambo wrote: »

They have to have hit the hard cap surely? It's five above your best HI in the last twelve months.

Handicap doesnt make too much difference when its the gross differential that is being rode here. Shoot 1 under par gross off a 7 or a 12 handicap is likely to win the comp no matter what

cjfitz

prawnsambo wrote: »

They have to have hit the hard cap surely? It's five above your best HI in the last twelve months.

He is just starting loose his better scores.

prawnsambo

Rikand wrote: »

Handicap doesnt make too much difference when its the gross differential that is being rode here. Shoot 1 under par gross off a 7 or a 12 handicap is likely to win the comp no matter what

But riding the gross differential will get you an ESR as well. And my point still stands. They can only get so far from their best HI in a year.

prawnsambo

cjfitz wrote: »

He is just starting loose his better scores.

That's in his last 20. What about in the last 12 months?

dan_ep82

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Played an away round today and the score that showed up on my GolfIreland is wrong by a long way, anything I can do?

It's not a winning score or even a cut but its very wrong.
I went birdie,double,par,scratch and its showing dbl,bogey,scratch,par


*18th showing as a scratch aswell that I had a bogie on. Difference of six shots from first and last holes. Emailed them to see if the can check the card.

Got sorted via email with the club incase it happens to anyone else, score amended on GolfIreland aswell

prawnsambo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Got sorted via email with the club incase it happens to anyone else, score amended on GolfIreland aswell

The update to Golf Ireland is almost instantaneous. As soon as it goes into the club software, it's pretty much uploaded to GI in minutes.

token56

Last weekend I had an Index of 21.2, played a stableford Singles comp and I'll admit I played relatively well for once, scored 45 points and the next day I was down to 8.5. It is just a result of me not having enough cards in but it was pretty shocking. A lot of laughs around the club the next day I was out, the biggest cut in history, definitely made a name for myself.

Now there is no way I'm a single figure golfer which is going to mean I am just not going to be able to score well in any comps for a while and with how often I can play I am probably going to have to submit some casual rounds for my Index to average out. So for new golfers being able to submit casual rounds is important I think but I can see how it can easily be abused.

DuckSlice

token56 wrote: »

Last weekend I had an Index of 21.2, played a stableford Singles comp and I'll admit I played relatively well for once, scored 45 points and the next day I was down to 8.5. It is just a result of me not having enough cards in but it was pretty shocking. A lot of laughs around the club the next day I was out, the biggest cut in history, definitely made a name for myself.

Now there is no way I'm a single figure golfer which is going to mean I am just not going to be able to score well in any comps for a while and with how often I can play I am probably going to have to submit some casual rounds for my Index to average out. So for new golfers being able to submit casual rounds is important I think but I can see how it can easily be abused.

Look on the Brightside, most golfers goal is to get to a single figure handicap, you got there in one round. Well done :p:D

cjfitz

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's in his last 20. What about in the last 12 months?

Playing HC is now 6 higher than July 2020.

Index is over 5 higher.

token56

DuckSlice wrote: »

Look on the Brightside, most golfers goal is to get to a single figure handicap, you got there in one round. Well done :p:D

Oh you can be sure I've taken a screenshot :D

Wombatman

token56 wrote: »

Last weekend I had an Index of 21.2, played a stableford Singles comp and I'll admit I played relatively well for once, scored 45 points and the next day I was down to 8.5. It is just a result of me not having enough cards in but it was pretty shocking. A lot of laughs around the club the next day I was out, the biggest cut in history, definitely made a name for myself.

Now there is no way I'm a single figure golfer which is going to mean I am just not going to be able to score well in any comps for a while and with how often I can play I am probably going to have to submit some casual rounds for my Index to average out. So for new golfers being able to submit casual rounds is important I think but I can see how it can easily be abused.

Have a look here on how scores are counted when you have less than 20 rounds.

https://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Handicapping/2019/Rules/The-Rules-of-Handicapping/Rule-5

big_drive

Another question for those in tune with the system

A complete new player joins club, he plays 3 rounds to get a handicap.

So suppose for arguments sake he's given 14

Do the 3 cards he submitted for getting the initial handicap go onto his golf Ireland scores or does it start at the point when the handicap commences?

In other words he plays his first competition in the club off his new handicap, is that counted as round 1 or round 4 ?

Hope I'm explaining myself properly, just a friend is taking up the game and I wasn't actually sure when trying to explain

gypsy79

big_drive wrote: »

Another question for those in tune with the system

A complete new player joins club, he plays 3 rounds to get a handicap.

So suppose for arguments sake he's given 14

Do the 3 cards he submitted for getting the initial handicap go onto his golf Ireland scores or does it start at the point when the handicap commences?

In other words he plays his first competition in the club off his new handicap, is that counted as round 1 or round 4 ?

Hope I'm explaining myself properly, just a friend is taking up the game and I wasn't actually sure when trying to explain

I think They should count but in examples I have seen they started from after handicap.

Newer member after starting they have counted

hurleronditch

gypsy79 wrote: »

I think They should count but in examples I have seen they started from after handicap.

Newer member after starting they have counted

For me they started afterwards. My 3 card rounds are nowhere to be seen on my GI.

I assume this is because your opening handicap isn’t always compiled in line with the WHS. My opening index was several shots lower than my cards. If my cards were on my GI they would corrupt what the handicap sec seemed was a fair opening handicap

big_drive

gypsy79 wrote: »

I think They should count but in examples I have seen they started from after handicap.

Newer member after starting they have counted

If that was case that they didn't count the 3 rounds used to calculate handicap then the player wouldn't move until his 3rd competition round?

Am I right on that ? Based on the link above 3 rounds must be on record to see a change

Which is an issue too.
Because if player given 14 in my example has 40 points in his first competition his handicap will still be 14 for competition number 2 ?

big_drive

hurleronditch wrote: »

For me they started afterwards. My 3 card rounds are nowhere to be seen on my GI.

I assume this is because your opening handicap isn’t always compiled in line with the WHS. My opening index was several shots lower than my cards. If my cards were on my GI they would corrupt what the handicap sec seemed was a fair opening handicap

Ok. So your handicap couldnt move so could it until you'd 3 competitions played?

Rikand

I hope we havent been doing it wrong but we have included the opening 3 cards in the members reckoning for handicap

big_drive

Rikand wrote: »

I hope we havent been doing it wrong but we have included the opening 3 cards in the members reckoning for handicap

I think you'd have to because otherwise the handicap won't move until another 3 cards get added to Golf Ireland

gypsy79

big_drive wrote: »

I think you'd have to because otherwise the handicap won't move until another 3 cards get added to Golf Ireland

That might explain something I seen but is contradicted by another example

I have two players who were given 19 as their handicap last year

One guy shot 43 points in a home comp and was moved to 11.4 immediately

The other guy has shot 48 points and 41 points at `big away clubs' and his handicap hasnt moved from 19

prawnsambo

hurleronditch wrote: »

For me they started afterwards. My 3 card rounds are nowhere to be seen on my GI.

I assume this is because your opening handicap isn’t always compiled in line with the WHS. My opening index was several shots lower than my cards. If my cards were on my GI they would corrupt what the handicap sec seemed was a fair opening handicap

Three card handicap rounds compiled and lodged before WHS won't appear on your GI record because they were never recorded on GolfNet. So there are no details like tees played, hole scores etc. The handicaps were carried forward as handicap indexes without any adjustment.

Handicap cards submitted after WHS will appear on your record since all details were uploaded to the WHS portal and will form part of your handicap record.

slingerz

Is it 2 or 5 shots the most you can increase in the new system?

prawnsambo

slingerz wrote: »

Is it 2 or 5 shots the most you can increase in the new system?

Five. At three above your lowest any increment is halved. It's not really shots since it's your index that's affected and shots depend on the course and tees you're playing.

DuckSlice

I was playing a vs Par comp yesterday. My index is 8.6 so playing handicap for course is 9. But for this comp I was off 10, is there different calculation for a vs Par comp to normal?

Seve OB

DuckSlice wrote: »

I was playing a vs Par comp yesterday. My index is 8.6 so playing handicap for course is 9. But for this comp I was off 10, is there different calculation for a vs Par comp to normal?

where did you get the 9 from?

Mantis Toboggan

DuckSlice wrote: »

I was playing a vs Par comp yesterday. My index is 8.6 so playing handicap for course is 9. But for this comp I was off 10, is there different calculation for a vs Par comp to normal?

Isn't stableford 90% of handicap? Think for vpar it's 100%.

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

where did you get the 9 from?

Thats whats on the chart in the clubhouse, 8.5-9.4 playing handicap is 9. Slope is 112.

gypsy79

DuckSlice wrote: »

Thats whats on the chart in the clubhouse, 8.5-9.4 playing handicap is 9. Slope is 112.

Corballis??

If so you may have been off Blue? But I just checked and its 112 off blue

And that is course handicap, which in this case (under 11) equals playing handicap