Your New WHS Index

Infoseeker1975

Does anyone know if a juvenile can attest/verify your score in casual play with the golf ireland app?

My youngest is up and running so trying to get out for as many 9 holes so he can get a handicap, default is 54:)

I know that I can use the app to create a score before we start and then on completion, I can sign off on it to attest/verify the score.

Just wondering if I do the same with my son attesting/verifying my score, he is a juvenile member.

RGS

Infoseeker1975 wrote: »

Does anyone know if a juvenile can attest/verify your score in casual play with the golf ireland app?

My youngest is up and running so trying to get out for as many 9 holes so he can get a handicap, default is 54:)

I know that I can use the app to create a score before we start and then on completion, I can sign off on it to attest/verify the score.

Just wondering if I do the same with my son attesting/verifying my score, he is a juvenile member.

My understanding is no. Juniors were not permitted to use the app to record scores nor have them verified by either a junior or adult. I presume the same applies to juniors verifying adult scores.
I believe golf Ireland are working on a solution for juniors to allow them record casual rounds on the app.

Infoseeker1975

@RGS thanks for the reply.

Juniors can use the app to record scores as I did that for my son last weekend.

Have the app on my phone, login using my member number if I want to create a score for myself, login using his member number to create a score for him, i.e. 2 separate golf ireland accounts.

The default handicap is pending at 54 so trying to get some scores in as he would be closer to a 28-36 handicap.

Not sure how many scores are needed to move from pending to a handicap though.

Rikand

redzerdrog wrote: »

What is a low index ya are referring too?

Its your lowest index you held in your last 20 rounds and it acts as the guidance for determining the maximum amount of shots you can get back in a year.

So if you are playing off 7.0 but your lowest handicap at some point of the previous year within your 20 rounds was 5.5 - That is your low index and it determines the maximum amount of shots that you are allowed to gain in a 12 month period if you go through a patch of bad form, which would potentially be to a handicap of 10.5. - this is, 5 shots higher than your low index

Of that 5.5, you would also have a soft cap for increases which is 3 shots higher than your low index, so in this case, your soft cap is 8.5. Once you hit your soft cap, the rate at which you gain shots back is halved. It's designed to make it hard for someone to get back to their maximum handicap gain though if someone really did play terribly, they could get there.

We have a couple of members who have hit their soft cap but its because their low index was based off 1 round which butchered them (much like the case of the member Gypsy has). In time, these sorts of things will iron themselves out

Rikand

Infoseeker1975 wrote: »

@RGS thanks for the reply.

Juniors can use the app to record scores as I did that for my son last weekend.

Have the app on my phone, login using my member number if I want to create a score for myself, login using his member number to create a score for him, i.e. 2 separate golf ireland accounts.

The default handicap is pending at 54 so trying to get some scores in as he would be closer to a 28-36 handicap.

Not sure how many scores are needed to move from pending to a handicap though.

3 scores, but its normally something that would be sorted out by your handicap committee. The 3 initial scores for handicap purposes need to be submitted by your son and entered by the handicap secretary. They need to make the handicap active in the admin side of the system for a junior and they may not allow it given a.) his age or b.) his possible membership category.

I'd consult with your handicap secretary before going any further tbh

ger664

ger664 wrote: »

Just dug a bit deeper into my WHS Index to discover scores from the old system from last year all have incorrect score differentials. All are entered with a reduction of 6 shots.

Assuming the calculation as SD = (113/SR) * (Adjusted Gross - CR)

Anyone else have this issue given that most have had a reduction in their handicap from CONGU

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is the adjustment shown on your record? And if so what column is it in?

Update on this. After making a query with the club handicap committee there was a reduction applied to my cards to try and maintain my handicap in line with what it was under Congu
However this created a low handicap Index of 11.6 (15.6 actual) on the one reasonable card I had in which I felt was penalising me as my hard cap would leave me with a course handicap of 2 shots lees then my original handicap. After a review they have reduced the reduction and cleared the low handicap index and will review again once I have 20 cards in.

I would not like to be on a handicap committee at the moment generally a thanks less job and given the new system not helping matters either.

RGS

Infoseeker1975 wrote: »

@RGS thanks for the reply.

Juniors can use the app to record scores as I did that for my son last weekend..

Good to know juniors can now record scores on the app.

hurleronditch

gypsy79 wrote: »

I see nothing in your post but opinion. No offence but I am looking for facts on WHS.

Oh sorry, I thought everyone was allowed an opinion, didn’t realise it was only you

gypsy79 wrote: »

He is a 13

I did state a fact, if he shot +4 in a counting round off 13, he is no longer a 13 and shouldn’t be.

Best of luck figuring it out.

prawnsambo

ger664 wrote: »

Update on this. After making a query with the club handicap committee there was a reduction applied to my cards to try and maintain my handicap in line with what it was under Congu

They shouldn't have done that. It's trying to bash two different systems into one and the result is that they have to reverse it.

prawnsambo

Rikand wrote: »

Not true from my observation

I'm looking at a guy now who has played 17 rounds but their first round is july 2020. They dont have a low index given in their scoring history as they have not played the 20 rounds. It's the same when a new member is created and their 3 cards input. They get a handicap index but not a low index

Sorry, should have been more exact there. As gypsy79 says, the low index comes from those first 20, so once they have a handicap index, the low index could be from the first or the twentieth.

gypsy79 wrote:

One way I could reduce it is by seeing if I can get his 3 cards and entering those. As the low round would be 6th round rather than 3rd so more rounds counting

Are you sure the three cards weren't put on the system? I've seen new members who were allocated handicaps under CONGU, but hadn't played any counting rounds before WHS, just have the CONGU handicap changed to a handicap index and the three rounds not included on their GI record. The same with members who hadn't reached 20 rounds before the changeover. Initial Handicap cards not included.

gypsy79

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you sure the three cards weren't put on the system? I've seen new members who were allocated handicaps under CONGU, but hadn't played any counting rounds before WHS, just have the CONGU handicap changed to a handicap index and the three rounds not included on their GI record. The same with members who hadn't reached 20 rounds before the changeover. Initial Handicap cards not included.

Yes that's exactly what I see

I just realised that this member transferred in when City West when it closed. I could get his record from there transferred over

kod12

Sorry if this has been asked before just trying to figure out how the cut works. It seems my club is just applying the old CONGU cut for beating the CSS

yesterdays card was 89 replacing a previous 94 card but was just cut the standard shots as I would have on Congu is that correct?

kod12

kod12 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before just trying to figure out how the cut works. It seems my club is just applying the old CONGU cut for beating the CSS

yesterdays card was 89 replacing a previous 94 card but was just cut the standard shots as I would have on Congu is that correct?

That is probably just coincidence. You are not cut an X amount based on any score you shoot and the Clubs have no say now. It is all synched up via Golf Ireland every night.

Probably easiest to look at some of the FAQ documents on their website about it to get an understanding.

prawnsambo

kod12 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before just trying to figure out how the cut works. It seems my club is just applying the old CONGU cut for beating the CSS

yesterdays card was 89 replacing a previous 94 card but was just cut the standard shots as I would have on Congu is that correct?

There is no such thing as a cut any more. It's an average of your best 8 score differentials (these may or may not be your best scores depending on other factors). Best to look at your record on the Golf Ireland website or app (preferably the website as there's more detail) and see which scores have been selected to make up your index.

What can sometimes happen is you put in a good score, but it knocks an even better one off the end of your record and your index goes up. Likewise your worst score of eight falls off due to a new round and even though that new round is average, your index goes down.

PabloAndRoy

It takes a bit of getting used to. Some of the lads I have been playing don't quite get the window aspect of "average of the lowest 8 in the last 20". I scored 34 points last weekend and my HI went down (0.5). Was playing casual round with a long time player and he didn't seem to grasp it. I explained that a slightly worse score had fallen out the 20 scores and this better Adj Gross replaced it, thus handicap went down. Blank stare, then a lighbulb moment and "aaaah, yes I get it now".

The key is its not only the round you just played, but also the old round that is no longer in your most recent 20.

prawnsambo

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It takes a bit of getting used to. Some of the lads I have been playing don't quite get the window aspect of "average of the lowest 8 in the last 20". I scored 34 points last weekend and my HI went down (0.5). Was playing casual round with a long time player and he didn't seem to grasp it. I explained that a slightly worse score had fallen out the 20 scores and this better Adj Gross replaced it, thus handicap went down. Blank stare, then a lighbulb moment and "aaaah, yes I get it now".

The key is its not only the round you just played, but also the old round that is no longer in your most recent 20.

And not just falling off the bottom, just no longer in your top eight. Even though the new one isn't a nett par beater.

Also players with new handicaps get lots of changes as they progress towards twenty scores. Especially at the start when they are getting their index based on their single best score.

Seve OB

I got to 9.5 last year and over the last 10-15 years have never been worse than 14. Averaged between 12-13 and dropped to 11 a few times but never stayed there for long. My HI is now 11.4.

I know myself I am well able to play better golf and can birdie every hole on the course (not a pipe dream, of course nobody does it all in a single round but I would regularly have a couple in a round) of course I always get the usual bandit remarks when I play well or hit decent shots, which is fine because anyone who knows my game can also see the weakness....... mainly I’m streaky.

So with the new system I’m now looking at my next drop being a terrible round which won’t make any difference, but I need a good round though because after that I have the next 2 rounds dropping being my best 2 scores by a long way. A 7.8 and a 6.9.

I had a streaky one yesterday +17 for 13 holes and then finished -1 for last 5 to hopefully build a bit of confidence. I finished with a SD of 15.1 which is not in my best 8 but if I don’t pull up my socks it soon could be.

But back to the handicap and my point. I feel it will be very hard for me to get to single figures with the new system. I’m already nearly at my soft cap and will probably be right up there in the next 3 rounds.

So with the ability to go out more and the bonus of an ESR being taken away, I just feel it will be much more difficult to keep the handicap low. Before if you had your 10 .1s back you could just give up and there would be no difference. Now every shot counts. I think that it will take some time to get used to it but the mental game will have to change and we will have to think that even when a round is gone, we can’t give up, because if we grind a less terrible score out of it, just maybe that will make a difference in 5,6 or 10 games time

Miley Byrne

The old cap of 1 shot higher than than your lowest handicap kept golfers artificially low in my opinion. Some like yourself were probably happy with it.

I know some lads who came down really quickly due to some ESRs and couldn't play to the new low handicap and they would have preferred the old cap of 2 shots higher. The ESR was an over reaction and was overly penal to someone going through a hot streak. The lads I know that came down really fast were down to 7 and would probably realistically be more like a 11 or 12 handicap. They were playing lots of golf but were maxed out in late May or early June. The only way their handicap could go was down in the unlikely event of them having a great score on a random day and all of them rounds where they would have received a .1 previously were disregarded as if they never happened.

I know in theory you were able to appeal for some shots back if you shot 7 rounds in a row outside your buffer but nobody I know was successful in their appeals.

Anyway, I'm probably straying off topic a bit:o

Kiith

I'm a bit confused about my WHS.

Showing as 14.9 at the moment, after it was 10.8 when we came back and 12.8 last week. I thought you could only go up .1 per round? My scores have been ****e since the lockdown ended, so not surprised its gone up, but seems like a big jump.





Is it because of the small number of rounds showing? I was never able to get Tullamore to answer why they only had two of my rounds showing.

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

I got to 9.5 last year and over the last 10-15 years have never been worse than 14. Averaged between 12-13 and dropped to 11 a few times but never stayed there for long. My HI is now 11.4.

I know myself I am well able to play better golf and can birdie every hole on the course (not a pipe dream, of course nobody does it all in a single round but I would regularly have a couple in a round) of course I always get the usual bandit remarks when I play well or hit decent shots, which is fine because anyone who knows my game can also see the weakness....... mainly I’m streaky.

So with the new system I’m now looking at my next drop being a terrible round which won’t make any difference, but I need a good round though because after that I have the next 2 rounds dropping being my best 2 scores by a long way. A 7.8 and a 6.9.

I had a streaky one yesterday +17 for 13 holes and then finished -1 for last 5 to hopefully build a bit of confidence. I finished with a SD of 15.1 which is not in my best 8 but if I don’t pull up my socks it soon could be.

But back to the handicap and my point. I feel it will be very hard for me to get to single figures with the new system. I’m already nearly at my soft cap and will probably be right up there in the next 3 rounds.

So with the ability to go out more and the bonus of an ESR being taken away, I just feel it will be much more difficult to keep the handicap low. Before if you had your 10 .1s back you could just give up and there would be no difference. Now every shot counts. I think that it will take some time to get used to it but the mental game will have to change and we will have to think that even when a round is gone, we can’t give up, because if we grind a less terrible score out of it, just maybe that will make a difference in 5,6 or 10 games time

The ESR isn't gone. If you have a score differential of 7 or more less than your index, you get a deduction of one from your index. Go over 10 and it's two. Interestingly, we had a member who fulfilled the criteria for an ESR in that he had exactly 7 of a difference. No ESR happened. I put in a query to Golf Ireland over two weeks ago and am still in a holding pattern awaiting a resolution. The rule is clear; it says between 7 and 9.9 yet it didn't trigger.

I suspect a coding error where someone put in >7 instead of >=7.

big_drive

Does anyone know how the handicaps work now in a scramble? 4 person event.

spacecoyote

Kiith wrote: »

I'm a bit confused about my WHS.

Showing as 14.9 at the moment, after it was 10.8 when we came back and 12.8 last week. I thought you could only go up .1 per round? My scores have been ****e since the lockdown ended, so not surprised its gone up, but seems like a big jump.





Is it because of the small number of rounds showing? I was never able to get Tullamore to answer why they only had two of my rounds showing.

Have you only got 6 rounds in total in your records?

Kiith

Yeah, and that's one of the things i don't really understand. I played a fair few competitions in Tullamore in 2020, but only two of them seemed to have been added (one where i won, and a not so good round). When i contacted the handicap secretary in Tullamore, he pretty much just said it was correct and nothing else he could do.

I'm hoping to join a team this year, so hopefully only having 6 rounds won't be a major issue.

prawnsambo

Kiith wrote: »

Yeah, and that's one of the things i don't really understand. I played a fair few competitions in Tullamore in 2020, but only two of them seemed to have been added (one where i won, and a not so good round). When i contacted the handicap secretary in Tullamore, he pretty much just said it was correct and nothing else he could do.

I'm hoping to join a team this year, so hopefully only having 6 rounds won't be a major issue.

There were lots of missing scores at the time of the changeover. We had a fair few away scores for members missing and some from our own competitions as well. Various causes, but mostly to do with competition data not reaching GolfNet or a comp closed, reopened and then closed again without updating GolfNet.Took a bit of work to correct it all, but clubs had plenty of time to check and correct the errors. I suspect some didn't bother.

Seve OB

big_drive wrote: »

Does anyone know how the handicaps work now in a scramble? 4 person event.

Don’t see any reason why it would be any different than tHan previous.

10% of the combined was normal. So IMO it will be 10% of CH

Kiith

prawnsambo wrote: »

There were lots of missing scores at the time of the changeover. We had a fair few away scores for members missing and some from our own competitions as well. Various causes, but mostly to do with competition data not reaching GolfNet or a comp closed, reopened and then closed again without updating GolfNet.Took a bit of work to correct it all, but clubs had plenty of time to check and correct the errors. I suspect some didn't bother.

Yeah, that may have been the case. I didn't bother chasing it up, as i wanted to see if i'd be able to play to that new handicap. Hasn't worked, but was worth the shot :pac:

prawnsambo

big_drive wrote: »

Does anyone know how the handicaps work now in a scramble? 4 person event.

In order of handicap from lowest to highest: 25%, 20%, 15%, 10%.

big_drive

Seve OB wrote: »

Don’t see any reason why it would be any different than tHan previous.

10% of the combined was normal. So IMO it will be 10% of CH

No I think from reading more tonight it's an absolute complicated system

big_drive

prawnsambo wrote: »

In order of handicap from lowest to highest: 25%, 20%, 15%, 10%.

Jesus I knew it could be complicated but that's a right one to work out. I hope a computer does it

redhill

big_drive wrote: »

Could anyone explain how a fourball better ball stableford works under the new system, what allowances are allowed handicap wise?

Wee chart for most types of competition