Your New WHS Index

PabloAndRoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117699116#Comment_117699116

Also a High handicapper golfer, off 25 say, only needs to have a double bogey free round to have a great score. someone off 10 trying to compete with that needs to go around in +3 gross. Presuming the 25 gets no pars.

For us high handicappers a double free round is a lot trickier than you might think.

I played off 25 over the weekend and had 42 points. I had 4 doubles and a triple, balanced out with 5 pars. This is the best round of golf I have every played in my life by the way. If I can play consistently to that level I will be playing off 18 which was my goal for 2021. I am not near playing that well consistently.

twounderpar

Does the WHS have any influence on fourball and team events results. In my club well known bandits/cowboys/cheats have got extra shots back and are cleaning up in fourball and team events.. Looking at the scorecards ,single handicap golfers could shoot the lights out and yet are way off the top three cards. I've made enquiries and have been told that nothing can be done until end of year review. By the year end some of the boyos will be millionaires!!

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703329#Comment_117703329

stupid new boards... cant break your post down to reply to relevant points :(

anyway my point is that if someone wants to run up a heap of bad scores on purpose to inflate their handicap, it's not that hard, especially as they can play a few 9 hole casual rounds. then they go and play the big games and rake in a few prizes. we all know it happens, moreso now under the WHS system,

i agree with your second paragraph. but i still think there needs to be a compromise, and your ability should also be factored in

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703984#Comment_117703984

Fourball and other formats aren't as yet considered acceptable scores for WHS in Ireland. That will probably change soon enough. I imagine after a year of WHS we'll see some changes as the picture emerges of how it's progressing.

slingerz

I think its fair to accept that the current system is not working as it was hoped especially for how we play the game here i.e. more competitive golf that casual rounds.

i think a 1 shot increase cap like we had in CONGU would be better than the 5 shot cap there currently. There is no system going to satisfy everyone and some would consider that to be harsh but it is what people were used to in the previous system.

a 54 handicap allowance is too many IMO a cap of 28 was more reasonable. The argument that those that needed 54 handicap had no chance of being comeptitive doesnt wash as those players are in the minority as opposed to the majority of club players with handicaps under 28

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700655#Comment_117700655

Anyone know the answer to this? Can’t find definitive answer online really and as far as I know nothing in my own club has changed anyway!

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704835#Comment_117704835

Yeah, new Boards is pretty brutal alright !

Ah I get your point, and mostly agree with you tbh. I just wonder if, no matter what system is devised, you'll always have p1ss takers who try to game it. I think the cap of 5 shots is too high, but then I think 1 shot under CONGU was too low. It'd be interesting to see how it has been received in other countries that brought it in. Would there be the same emphasis on competitions and "winning" that there is here ? Would there be the same, lets say "nod and a wink" culture ? I totally agree it wasn't needed, there's almost no benefit to 99% of golfers in having a unified worldwide system.

I dunno, should a system be continually changed to try to outfox the few, or do we say it broadly works and there's always outliers ? I know lots won't agree with this, but my personal view is that the guy who intentionally builds his handicap and then wins the Captains is largely (but not 100%) an urban myth created by fellas who could never play to their own handicaps. Whether a winning score any Saturday is 30pts or 45pts, someone will have the best score of the day. By the very nature of the game, and if the CONGU thing of "once every seven rounds" was in any way true, the chances are that player will have had a run of poor scores prior to his good one. Now, building your handicap to get on interclub teams is totally different and I'd guess that was pretty widespread.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705391#Comment_117705391

Is there any chance they'll amend course ratings based on the scores on them? This was my expectation at the start - that some courses would be ranked as easier / harder than others when the experience of people playing them is very different. In theory since the handicaps are adjusted for the course you're playing you'd expect the scores to be similar net of handicap on different courses. But l look at the scores on my current course compared to my previous and the winning scores tend to be about 2 shots better at home. A friend moved from Kileen to Portmarnock links and finds the same.

My understanding is that you can only rank courses based on the set criteria - things like length, hazards in landing areas, speed of greens, etc. And if the scores suggest that the ranking is wrong, all you can do is reassess based on the same criteria. But you can't say, "the average winning stableford score here is 41 points, the average for a club is 39, therefore people are getting too many shots in the playing handicap adjustment / their handicaps are staying too high."

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705817#Comment_117705817

I can only tell you that Golf Ireland said not to put the slope ratings on scorecards as they would likely be changing. I would imagine that a lot of aspects of WHS would be reviewed, but not until the playing season is over. More data meaning better decisions I suppose. All of this is my own conjecture, nothing has been officially announced.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705642#Comment_117705642

All I can tell you is that the changes to flag and bunker protocols were left up to clubs to implement or not as they saw fit. I haven't seen anything about scorecards, but maybe check with The Heritage and ask them directly are they implementing normal scorecard handling rules. Also, some clubs insist that the markers name be put on the card, but this isn't a DQ offence afaik.

You should also check the rules of golf from the R&A with regard to covid. Afaik, the rule on handling scorecards hasn't been changed.

Edit: Found this in the club support section on the GI website. This part may apply to your friend. People should take note of this as it seems to be a change in process. I'm particularly interested in the 'signing' of a scorecard. It seems to run counter to the whole idea of signing.

In case the above is unreadable, here's the relevant text:

If physical scorecards are used, in all cases the MARKER should enter the player’s scores on a scorecard (it is advisable that each player keep their own score as well as the score of the person they are marking). At the end of the round, the marker should ask the player to verbally certify his/her scores, and then write the player’s name in the player’s signature slot. The marker signs the card in the marker’s signature slot.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117699252#Comment_117699252

Here's a selection of other notable scores from Kerry last weekend

Tralee Presidents Prize:

1st: 45pts off 19

2nd: 42pts off 29

Ballybunion Presidents Prize (Old Course):

1st: 46pts off 22

Dooks Presidents Prize:

1st: 44pts off 26

Ross Captains prize:

1st: 66nett off 20

Kenmare Captains Prize:

1st: 62nett off 11

Waterville:

1st: 40pts off 25

https://www.radiokerry.ie/sport/golf-weekly-winners-round-up-2-246080

What's the point in paying the entry fees for members comps when the above scores are being recorded?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709468#Comment_117709468

These results aren't that unusual for major club competitions. Just had a look around some of the clubs around me and other ones in Dublin and I see plenty of 40+ points or mid 60s net winning them last year. Last year our Captain's was won by a 30 handicapper with 66 net. And the chap is no bandit, lots of struggles with his game due to injury and worked hard at it. Everyone delighted to see him win. You can't just look at a couple of numbers and make a judgment.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705817#Comment_117705817

Golf Ireland had a committee of people put together to go around the country and look at the slope and course ratings. My wifes Aunt was on one of the rating teams in Leinster reviewing the courses from the red tees.

Havent chatted to her in a while, but I'd be amazed if that was a once off exercise, so would say itll be open to revision

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710091#Comment_117710091

I'd be surprised if they'll actually go through the whole visiting and rating process again though. It took about two years to do the current ratings and they advertised for volunteers to do it. I know they will visit and rate courses on request where a layout has changed or a new set of tees need to be rated for women or men. I would expect them to review the data and assess the accuracy of the ratings from that.

TXPTGR1

Pretty clear at this stage that the WHS is not a good fit for Ireland where we take our comps seriously

ger664

While there has been a lot of talk of WHS not been a good fit. Our club introduced a €5 per casual round fee. This seems to have stopped or prevented people from entering cards before majors.

Captains Qualifiers yesterday and today. While conditions where not conducive to good scoring the following is a breakdown of the results

258 Entered. Top 36 qualify. Covered by 6 shots 67-73 Nett. Only 3 from 15 73's made the grade ( Par 70 Course 70.4 off the Comp Tees)

6 Players 18+

25 Players 10-18

5 Players under 10

This is probably how WHS should work. Changing the frequency or removing the ability to enter Causal Rounds will clean up a lot of the issues with WHS

pauldoo

Any idea what happens when we get to winter golf? Will the new system freeze while placing is in place or will handicaps continue to move?

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722699#Comment_117722699

Would assume it'll be the same, yii csm only hsve qualifying golf in qualifying conditions

TXPTGR1

How does the PCC get applied to your score on a particular day? With the decent enough weather this summer have not seen it applied yet

today though was wild enough wind wise so I’m expecting scoring overall to be poor - though I played ok

say there is a PCC of +2 or +3 today- does that get subtracted from my score differential?

bamayang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721586#Comment_117721586

I’m not that familiar with the whs system, so can anyone tel me if thIs looks normal or a bit iffy.

Captains prize last month, leader after day 1 is net 65 with a handicap off 24.

Click onto golf ireland app and he has just 8 cards available and they consist of

3 at 130 strokes

4 between 98-101

captains card 89

Is that gouging or someone who doesn’t get to play a lot?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723560#Comment_117723560

Yes.

I was a bit confused the other day with a PCC of 2. Took me a while to work it out as I couldn’t find anything on the WHS or GI site to indicate the formula.

but I worked it out, yep it is (adj gross - course rating - pcc)* 113/slope

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723650#Comment_117723650

What's the time scale? You often get this kind of improvement from a new handicap who joins a club, gets their handicap and gets a fair bit of practice in or lessons and starts to 'firm up' their game. Especially young lads who can hit the ball a mile, but it's a mile in every direction until they get it under control.

With eight scores in, their index will be the average of their best two, so based on a rough calculation, their index will be down to around 18 or 19. Could be lower if that 89 includes one or more holes where the score was above nett double bogey.

bamayang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726625#Comment_117726625

I can’t tell the timescale, don’t think you can see it from the app. This lad is prob nearer 40’s than a young lad getting into it.

Its probably genuine but doesn’t look that great imo.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726771#Comment_117726771

If it's in your club, you should be able to see the timescale from your HowDidIDo or Master Scoreboard (or whatever software you use for results).

That age group could well be somebody getting back into golf after a long layoff. Would have a similar scoring trajectory to a young lad starting off.

Some clubs are limiting Captain's Prize winners to those who have twenty or more scores under WHS. But as I said above, cuts are more severe at the earlier stages under WHS. Average of best two score differentials when you've seven or eight in and three when it's nine to eleven.

blue note

I really think it's terrible that every good score seems to be looked on with skepticism now. Anyone who has a good score must be paranoid about what people are saying about them. Except it's not paranoia, because they are saying those things about them.

Sometimes people try to play their best all the time and then some day it all comes together and they have a great round. You'd all enjoy the game more if you'd accept that that's the case the majority of the time and not worry about the minority out there. Let the handicap secretaries and the clubs deal with them if they can.

finglashoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727273#Comment_117727273

i agree

And without actually checking this out, the scoring average with WHS seems to have gone up across all categories. so in that sense its a better reflection of a players current form/ability.

therefore the result is that the winner is also going to have a better score

the people without 20 scores in can probably game the system a bit easier. though early good scores are penalised until the 20 are in to level out the average.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727273#Comment_117727273

I'd agree with this 100%. I don't play golf to win competitions or prizes, I play with the aim of lowering my handicap as low as possible. Most lads I play with would be similar, sure its nice to win a prize now and then or put in a good score but in general the aim is lowering the handicap and anyone I've been paired with seem to be generally sound guys just trying to enjoy the game and put in a score, obviously there are some exceptions. I really think this idea of 'bandits' artificially inflating their handicaps until a big competition is mostly a myth. I'm sure there are some people who do it but I just don't buy into it being as widespread as some say. Not sure if its just my club but there are some people who seem to care about nothing only comps, its usually those guys who moan loudest about these 'bandits', I just don't think anyone should care that much about a competition really. Its not like anyone outside of the club gives a crap about it and many within couldn't care less who wins them either.

What I do think is an issue is those with only a handful of scores winning majors, my club doesn't allow new members win the major comps in their first year, I've still played in them all even though I knew I couldn't win. I'm shocked that this isn't a rule in all courses to be honest, or at least a minimum of 20 scores in before you can win it. I'm also inclined to think there should be some limit on handicaps though I'm not sure where you'd draw the line there.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727630#Comment_117727630

if you are a member, you are a member.... I think it's disgraceful that any club takes your money and then says you are not allowed win the comp

I've no problem with there being a minimum number of games played before a major

willabur

played interclub last night which had a limit of 11.5 on the 1st of May this year. My handicap has gone from 12.1 to 8.9 in the meantime. Other teams captain came over to me ahead of the game and during the match to give me a polite grilling on my playing record recently :)

Really don't get the mentality of people fluffing up their handicap. I always go out with the intention of playing my best and I reckon my best is about a 5 or 6 handicap. I know my personal circumstance will change in the future and I will have less time to practice as much as I can now or play as much midweek. I am sure my handicap will go back up but on a good day I will go low I will post a high stableford score. I would say alot of good scores going forward will be because of that, thats down to the new system

spacecoyote

To be honest i think the increased handicap limits are possibly a bigger issue than the actual calculation system itself.

I find I'm enjoying the new system in terms of the focus it gives me in terms of looking at my rolling 20

bustercherry

The max handicap allowance change (prior to the new WHS) is a joke. No one (unless there is a very good reason) should be playing competitive golf of a 54 handicap, end of story. Previously there was provision for a handicap above 28 to be allocated (had to be approved by the GUI I recall) and it was in exceptional circumstances only e.g. some sort of disability. Now I see GAA lads in theirs 20's playing golf of 30 handicaps which guys waiting for hip replacements hobbling around courses playing a decent level mid teens.

In their efforts to make it more inclusive, the governing bodies will end up with the opposite. The talk of limiting majors to people with 20 scores is just the tip of the iceberg; what is going to happen is we will have tiered comps in clubs (much like scratch cups) with max handicaps allowances either forcing people to drop down or more likely preventing them from entering full stop.

The problem is at the moment we are seeing the affects of new allowances, the implementation of WHS and a large uptake in the game due to covid - plus you could add in the good weather which helped shorter hitters. People seem to forget that large number of members were struggling to play off too low handicaps; these same members would have got a big bump at the start of the year (when the handicap index's were calculated) and are suddenly competitive again. It's a kinda perfect sh1tshow at the moment and unfortunately the people who had a consistent HI are the ones getting rode.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727768#Comment_117727768

I can see your point but personally I don't mind. I can play and win medals and regular comps, its just the Captains and Presidents prize I can't win and even then I think its just the top prize you are ruled out on here. I have no particular interest in competitions really, I just play them to try get my handicap down and for that bit of extra interest in a round but I know there are lots of members who live for those bigger competitions.

Helpneeded86

Hi, just a quick question. I played my first competition and was off 21 (26 on the course). I hit 40 points and was cut to 12.6.

I am trying to get my handicap back to a reasonable number (18-20) as ive never shot under 90. I handed in a card the last day from a casual round but it appears to have had no impact on my score.

Does this type of round not count?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729402#Comment_117729402

How many scores are on your record? If you're at the early stages, a good score can hammer your handicap index the way yours seems to have been. Below is the table that shows how your index is calculated based on the number of qualifying rounds you have submitted. As you can see below, if you have seven or eight scores in, your index is based on the average of your best two. If you put in a casual card that (say) is your eighth, then it will have no effect on your index as your best two are still the ones that count.

CackHand

As a new member I like the transparency of the WHS. I know when a score is dropping out and subsequently that if i shoot better or worse than a certain score my handicap will go up or down accordingly.

One qualm i do have though is the fact my handicap is not the average of my best 8 differentials from the last 20 rounds. I understood this was how it works but I am consistently playing off at least a stroke below the average of my 8 differentials which i do not get.

My ultimate goal is to get better and improve my handicap but I also want a HI that represents my current ability. Is there a system to have your handicap recalculated?

Helpneeded86

Ah ok, this was only my second round recorded so I guess its a case of submitting more. Thanks for the help.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729545#Comment_117729545

Your index is the average of your best 8 from 20

Your Course Handicap is your index adjusted for the course slope.

Your Playing Handicap is your CH adjusted for the type of competition you're playing. For stableford thatll be 95% of your CH which might account for the lower number?

dan_ep82

I've never played in any of the big comps, theres always so much drama and finger pointing at them it put me off them. Unless your single figures someone will throw the bandit word around. People will still talk about that 18hc that won that turkey and the captains 10 years ago but hasn't won a thing since like its all a master plan

Lets be real though the only person winning should be the lowest score but we're all varying degrees of crap so only a select few elite of the club would bother then

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728989#Comment_117728989

Such nonsense. What does it matter if they're young and played gaa or if they're old and hobbling? All that matters is how many shots they take. And that's what the handicap is based on. If they play well, they'll get cut.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729545#Comment_117729545

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729857#Comment_117729857

And just to add to what space has said. If the average of your best 8 is not equal your HI, you need to also look at the lowest your HI has been in the last 12 months as you may have hit either the soft cap of 3 or the hard cap of 5.

I myself have hit the soft cap (only just) so I think the rule there is if your average is let’s say 3.4 higher than your lowest, then the .4 element is reduced by 50%

slingerz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730442#Comment_117730442

Clearly talking about capacity to improve. Young and athletically talented players will have an obvious capacity to improve as opposed to the older player who is experiencing diminished physical attributes

KevH1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730610#Comment_117730610

Surely any capacity to improve should not be factored in when originally handicapping a golfer. You should be using the evidence to hand at the time - their 3 cards - and calculating accordingly based on those alone. We all have capacity to improve from our initial handicaps, some will improve more quickly than others but that's always been the way it is. Good golf will be rewarded with a handicap being reduced. I still feel WHS will be very fair in the long run for all golfers once all new members etc reach their 20 cards, scores should settle down. There will still be anomalies and big scores but that's always been the way it is.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732497#Comment_117732497

WHS has this built in anyway. As can be seen from the screenshot above showing handicap index progression. Basically put in your three cards, get your new index, put in a better score, that's your new index. And this pretty much happens all the way along until the twenty scores are in. But there's nothing wrong with putting in a reasonable adjustment that 'anticipates' likely improvement based on the progression shown in the initial three cards. Those initial adjustments drop off immediately a new score is put in.

slingerz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732497#Comment_117732497

You’ll never have a case where all members have 20 cards though.

you will always have new members with less cards. Given an inflated HI to those causes chaos. A lot here would have been given 18 starting and left to progress from that. Starting off 35 or so would have been a massive advantage to anyone. The limit should be 28 rather than going to 54

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734075#Comment_117734075

Why should the limit be 28 and not 54? If a fella can't play to 28, what would be the point in forcing him to? And likely, confining him to the bottom of every competition.

The days of giving fellas a handicap of 18 or 20 or whatever were fine for those who would play enough to get to a level where their ability and handicap meet. But for the fellas who take up the game and are only getting out every few weeks, what was the point in them playing off 18 every time they get out? If they're young fathers there's a good chance that they'll only be able to get out in half a dozen comps a year, so over 2 years they'd get a shot back. Because the handicap secretary isn't going to be looking at the lads only playing in a couple of comps every year. Sure they'd be vilified if they gave them extra shots and then God forbid they win a comp.

If clubs aren't willing to let these lads have appropriate handicaps, then they shouldn't charge them full membership. And those who are playing more regularly should pick up the tab.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730610#Comment_117730610

If they improve they get cut. Problem solved.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730442#Comment_117730442

it matters when lads are handing in cards of 100+ to get 30+ handicaps and then popping up in their first comp shooting 81 gross etc... Then it transpires that people hand in crappy cards otherwise "as advised by other members" he would get an initial handicap allocated (under Congu rules) they would never be able to play to for years despite that not possible under WHS if it is followed correctly.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734192#Comment_117734192

I don't think anyone (unless a very good reason) should be playing competitive golf or in the same comps if they can't play to a reasonable standard. Whether 28 is the limit I'm not sure about but I do know that I wouldn't want to be in a 4 ball where the rest had 30+ handicaps; it would be unbearably slow and from my own selfish perspective not the ideal scenario to shoot good scores myself.

slingerz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734192#Comment_117734192

Why should it be 54 and not 108? When is there a limit on it? 28 was the established limit and there wasn’t half the grief about it.

An appropriate handicap is not 54 strokes. A standard par 72 would see them going around in 124 strokes IF they play to their handicap. No wonder rounds are taking so long if that’s the case

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734478#Comment_117734478

54 handicaps were introduced under CONGU three years ago. The upper handicap limit has changed many times over the years under CONGU. 28 was just one of the limits along the way. Also if somebody, after getting their first handicap, shoots an 81 gross under WHS, that's their new handicap index.