Your New WHS Index

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896540#Comment_118896540

I enter every score as I want my handicap to reflect how I am playing.

Why would you want to keep your handicap artificially low?

AyeGer

Over the winter our club was seeing some ridiculous non qualifying scores. Now we are back on summer tees and no longer on matts everything has calmed down. Same sort of scores as any other year generally.

The only concern is the handicaps handed out to beginners and juniors. Giving 45 to some fit young fella who improves rapidly can lead to some crazy scores. It’s hard to avoid though under the current WHS guidelines.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195353#Comment_119195353

For winter golf in my club, I found it a lot easier to score. Reduced length, preferred lies, drop one club length in the rough (easy to move around obstructions), and very soft greens. All of these make it easy to be 2-3 strokes better than normal.

Whereas now the placing option is gone, greens are like glass on a Sunday and you need a lot of height/spin to stop the ball. Most winning scores now seem to be in the high 30s and the odd low 40. Captain's prize is coming up though, let's see what the scores are like for it.

Newbie HCs don't tend to be an issue where I play but 45 seems like an outlier, you'd have to be putting in 3x cards in the 120-130s I'd imagine.

DuckSlice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195299#Comment_119195299

I thought that too but did not want to say :D

I actually cant find in the Golf Ireland literature anywhere it says that your attester needs to play with you for general play scores? A loophole maybe?

spacecoyote

Can you attest through the website too? If you're brother couldn't access through his phone, could he have logged on elsewhere and approved there?

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195560#Comment_119195560

I had problems twice getting people to approve scores. You can only do so much checking that a person is set up before declaring that you're going to submit a card. The first problem I had the guy said no problem re attesting it on the app after. I sent him a couple of texts when he didn't do it and then had to get him to create an account with Golf Ireland and download the app. The second, the lad was having trouble accessing his account. Again, he said no problem at the start of the round.

You can't start asking people to show you that they can log into the app to attest a score. If they say they can do it, that's all you can go on.

A bug bearer of mine is people keeping their handicaps artificially low. They'll only submit when they're playing well. The result being that their scores go back forever and they're annoyed that they can't play to their handicap. Your handicap should reflect your playing ability, not you at your best. If you're going through a bad run of form, your handicap should reflect that!

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195299#Comment_119195299

No he doesn't its a work golf society that I put my scores in when I play other courses. Some of the work society lads don't have GUI's so its just easier to get him to approve. I put in my score if playing society golf as I like to see how I'm comparing to my home course.

Me and my brother are members of another course.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194942#Comment_119194942

I had 27 points off the Yellow's in the Beech Park. The Golf Ireland app appears to have given me a lower points score than 27 points. I didn't look into that much but I did get an email to say I was penalised for not verifiying the score.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195593#Comment_119195593

Thats why I just get my brother to approve, he trusts me and no need to hound other people to do it.. It might not be the right way to do so but at times its the only option. I put every card in with my home club and like to do so when I'm playing other courses in a soceity, however bad or good the score is. Its a reflection of how my game is. I play off 16 so not that I'm trying to screw the system either.

blue note

I don't doubt your honesty, but you'll have to stop doing that. If we accept people doing that, then it's very easy for people cheating their handicaps to put in whatever scores they want. And if someone you know notices you're doing that they could assume you're doctoring your handicap. You don't want to get that name.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195717#Comment_119195717

Whilst I commend you for keeping your handicap up to date by entering your society scores, you are breaking the rules having someone who is not playing with you attest the scores. It’s out of order really and I would pull anyone up on it if I knew they were at it.

your score must be attested by a playing partner and if they are not members of golf Ireland then you just don’t submit the score

Lefty2Guns

Thanks for the feedback lads.

slingerz

@blue note

theyve been onto Golf Ireland and nothing can be done. How do you prove it’s intentional bad rounds? And in team comps the selection goes between 4 fellas so it’s never the exact same team each time.

we charge €5 for casual round. I can understand the logic, save competition fees from taking a hit, but it doesn’t put off the bandit, they’ll enter the comp and post a terrible score. F

for example our midweek open regularly won with 44/45pts except the week of the captains prize. 37pts got it done that week. Maybe it was just a coincidence!!

blue note

Midweek opens getting the big scores? Would the bandits not be targeting the medals and the like? Maybe they're genuine scores?

And what sort of hit have your Sunday comps taken in numbers? How few are playing them? Versus how many before covid started?

I know there are bandits out there. But half the time when I hear of the bandits I think it's probably just lads having a great day.

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198526#Comment_119198526

Bandits are the lads who play shite all year, but show up for the captains or presidents prize or maybe a comp like the free sub or club hamper.

Lads who produce a great round of golf in a mid week open are not bandits. Just someone who had their day as Blue Note says above

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198476#Comment_119198476

I know in my course, midweek the course is set up a little easier, forward tee's etc and flag positions a little less difficult. That completely changes at the weekends especially around bigger events. Is that the reason midweek guys might shoot 40+ and then the weekend scores are a little less.

gypsy79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199513#Comment_119199513

Which should be in PCC but isn’t covered adequately at most courses

0 everyday at mine

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199611#Comment_119199611

only see it used once an that was right at the start, surely its just a setting you turn on or off on the software

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198526#Comment_119198526

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199185#Comment_119199185

I largely agree with both these points. IMO, yes there are some bandits out there, but not nearly as many as people make out. Club amateurs are by their very nature, very inconsistent. Someone is going to have the best score of the day on Captain's (or any other) Day. The odds are massively stacked towards it being someone who has done nothing all year. If someone has been in a good run of form, the handicap system will have dealt with them and the gross score that gave them 40pts a few weeks ago might only give them 36pts this week. Under the old system I think you were expected to play to your handicap something like once every 7 rounds or something like that. You'd get a cut, and over the next 6 rounds probably get most of it back.

I'm not naive enough to think there are no handicap builders or bandits out there, but I genuinely think that almost all of the time someone has a big score it was just their day. I know certain clubs/regions/competitions would have a bit of a reputation for banditry, but honestly when the best players in the world can shoot 63 followed by 78 (or vice versa), it'll take a lot to convince me that a 16 handicapper can deliver a score on demand. Unless, of course, he should be an 8 😁, but really the effort required to get out that far, would make him just a sad f-cker and an outlier IMO.

Apologies for veering slightly OT above. I have noticed with a year or more of WHS scores, there's definitely way more volatility in handicaps. Its definitely much more of a reflection of how you are actually playing when you lose the benefit of a good score 21 rounds ago. I think overall its better, but our mindset is still a bit in the old CONGU way of things so its skewing our view. There's a few quirks, like not really working for V-Par, and one that I've just noticed for me - probably next week I've a really good counting score from last year dropping out of my 20, as it happens with the numbers, I could shoot 38pts next week, win the competition and my handicap will still go up - seems intuitively wrong, but it is what it is.

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199941#Comment_119199941

Where are you playing that 38pts will win a competition?? Try adding on an extra 8pts to that is the usual winning score in my club.

DuckSlice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200094#Comment_119200094

Lately its been 38-41 pts winning comps in my club, but the "bandits" don't enter comps unless they are big ones or they need to reach the designated amount of comps to win a Captains etc.

Our competition entries are down compared to last year.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200094#Comment_119200094

Well, 38pts wouldn't always win, but you'd definitely feel you had a chance in your class most of the time. Although, in fairness, we had a 43 on Sunday in class 3 I think, but generally speaking, if you're in or around 38/39pts you'll probably figure.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199941#Comment_119199941

Some very good points made there, especially the comparison with pros and a 16 handicapper sticking a score in on demand

Seve OB

crunched some numbers and my HI is incorrect. Only slightly but I think I can guess why.

so I’m in the bandit zone 🥸, as in I’ve gone out more than 3 shots over the last year 🥺 (thankfully less than 5) so any increase I have over 3 shots has been capped to half what it would otherwise be.

my low index increased there about 2 weeks ago (low index is going to increase again on Thursday 🫣) so my HI should have gone up but it didn’t

I’ve played a couple of games since this but no singles so no scores going in. I reckon it probably won’t change until I stick a qualifying score in.

anyone else spot this?

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200620#Comment_119200620

Where do you look for your low index ? I can't see it on my record at all....

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202001#Comment_119202001

It only shows it on the website rather than in the app

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202258#Comment_119202258

Yes it’s a bit crap.

on app you need to scroll back and review manually

slingerz

Midweek is a qualifier to a big end of year final with top prizes. They all want to qualify for that. Medals are not a big comp in the club, many opting to play the stableford comp opposite as opposed to the stroke play option

billy3sheets

There's obviously quite a bit of variation across clubs. Not sure why it is.

Our club typically has a winner in the low 40s, maybe winning by 1-2 points. About 12-15% of the field beat their handicap usually and finish in the 37-39 point range. On many days 37-39 pints will win their division. There's been quite a bit of tough golf this year due to wind.

Open days are similar, sometimes won by a member, sometimes by a visitor but usually by a point or even a countback. Only on 1 occasion was it won by a good margin and we notified that visitor's home club.

On PCC, this seems not to be working well at all across clubs. It is meant to be derived from scoring on that day. Our club had ~66 comps since qualifying resumed mid-March. Only on 4 of those occasions was there a non-zero PCC, despite low scoring. I checked a lot of other local clubs and PCC was similar for the same period.

The calculation for PCC is not easily obtained. The R&A definition for PCC calculation is vague:

Whether significantly fewer players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be harder than normal.

Whether significantly more players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be easier than normal.

These terms can't be entered into a computer for a calculation but there must be a formula somewhere.

Seve OB

Why did you have to notify the home club? If it was an open, it’s all linked through that handicap system