Your New WHS Index

Seve OB

from an operational point of view, in the early days we were all looking at our rounds. We knew if we had a good one dropping or even a bad one dropping, I nearly never look at my own record anymore . Just play the games and let the system do its thing. Id reckon most golfers nearly never look at their own record, and still loads haven’t a clue how it works.

i made points before about the buffer zone of the old system being a good target for a bad round. If you were close you could try grind out a score. If you were miles off hitting the buffer you could essentially give up on the round, have a bit of fun, take some mad shots on etc. With the exception of gaining 10 .1’s in a year you didn’t previously need to keep tabs on your own playing record to know if you were in buffer territory.

You can’t really do that now. a bad round now might be a good round soon so you really have to try hard every round right to the end. But you need to keep tabs on your record to know what’s dropping etc and if you are in the modern day equivalent of the old buffer zone and if you need to grind a score out.

That’s not as easy as it sounds and IMO is a contributing factor to handicaps rising (unnecessarily)

oh and another thing. The buffer was easy to calculate during a round. Now if I’m dropping a SD of 14.6 I genuinely haven’t a breeze what score I need to shoot to even match that…. And it will get worse when playing away courses

spacecoyote

I like the system...for me. But I just think its flawed for the way that Irish amateur golf works, and for the way that it's open to abuse.

The guy who won our winter league overall singles didn't shoot a round over 90 strokes for the entire winter, no score less than 35 points stableford for 14 weeks on the trot. He was given a 3 shot observation cut at end of the league

He hasn't had a round under 90 strokes since qualifying started back and he's already got at least 1 stroke back. He's an example of someone gaming the system. I don't doubt he'll have 2-3 of that cut back by the time the winter league starts back, and he'll probably start shooting the lights out again until qualifying starts back, as he's done for the prior 2-3 years

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122477609#Comment_122477609

That's the thing. As you say, he'll have those shots back in no time. Observation cuts are essentially useless with the index being recalculated constantly and after 20 rounds it will have completely washed out. That could be less than 2 months for some guys.

As Seve mentioned above, I've taken the view that it is what it is, and only occasionally check my record to see if I have a counting score dropping out and what my target will be to replace it with something equal or better. Not going so well this year, I'm rapidly heading for the soft cap, might make it this weekend 😫!

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122477718#Comment_122477718

Bandit 😉🤠

moycullen14

I've kinda given up on WHS at this stage. Too many fundamental problems with it:

Course ratings are way off. I know its difficult to have a one size fits all CR but some of them just defy all logic, especially links courses

WHS is supposed to reflect your current standard. How can it do this when the frequency of your submissions is not factored in? How current is current when some of your counting scores could be more than 2 years old? Maybe there should be a requirement to submit a minimum number of cards per year to keep your handicap.

Casual rounds are way too casual. I've come across people creating score cards after a round, gimme putts, you name it, things that would not be acceptable in normal competitions.

Played with a guy recently (society, admittedly) who had 61 shots! Whatever that is, it ain't golf. A par on one of the par 3s would have netted him -1! Bit tricky for a scratch golfer to match that.

Banditry: With CONGU you had to work at being a bandit, now you can be one without even trying. In the old days when you came across a 10-12 handicapper playing of 18-20, you knew he was sandbagging; today it could be because he did/didn't submit any scores.

The nett(?) result is that I'm playing in fewer competitions, just having fun playing for myself. Maybe that's no bad thing.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122477609#Comment_122477609

Whatever about captains prize or something big, he would want to be one sad bastard to be handicap building to win a winter league 🤣

REFLINE1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478050#Comment_122478050

haha i thought the same , imagine spending all of peak golf season purposively playing sh*t so you could win the fkn winter league

Ronney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478065#Comment_122478065

Me too. For as long as I can remember there is always high scores in Winter. Being able to place and slow greens is a bit aid to the higher handicaps.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478065#Comment_122478065

Probably makes enough in vouchers to cover his sub for the year !

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478564#Comment_122478564

Yes, the prizes in our winter league would give someone a decent top up on their club account

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478564#Comment_122478564

what club allows vouchers/comp prizes to be used as sub payments?

I don’t know if any, but if there are some, it’s not a great business model if you ask me

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478735#Comment_122478735

Yeah, its probably not ideal, but if he can use the vouchers somewhere outside of the club, he'll be saving in cash terms anyway. Supermarkets used to take the old paper GUI vouchers but I'm not sure how it all works now tbh.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478801#Comment_122478801

would have thought any club with a pro shop applies voucher amount to the winners pro shop balance. that way the money is kept in the club to help operations.

any open competition i have ever won have always given me a voucher to spend in their club shop.

i guess if a club doesn't have a pro shop, then it becomes a bit different.

spacecoyote

Yeah, in my place, unless there's an actual physical prize, it's money into your account for use in the pro-shop.

You can't pay your sub with it

DiegoWorst

Being able to put your hand on the ball in the rough during winter gives some golfers a new lease of life. In our place it is the same story every year, some guys struggle all summer, handicaps go out, as soon as non-qualifying golf comes in they're back to shooting 40+ points. I don't think there is any intent in it, some find their comfort level when there's a bit of give under the ball. It is almost as if they should have 2 handicaps, 1 for winter and 1 for summer.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122479569#Comment_122479569

Shop or bar accounts for us.

coillcam

Winter scores are hard to gauge. Placing everywhere and sometimes that's enough scope to take a tree/branch out of the equation. Tees then being brought froward too far so you're playing the wrong course or an entirely unrated course. It's easier to score and you're less penalised for going offline.

You can only hold one handicap index so some committees opt for a temporary internal comp only cut on a player. We've had plenty of guys peak significantly in the smaller winter fields but barely feature come major time in the summer.

Obviously there are outliers but in general winter golf is a wash as far as banditry goes. The prizes are smaller so bandits would be wasting their time in crap weather. It only rears it's head in the run up to the big fixtures on the calendar or some but not all interclubs.

On the other points about caps and upward movement. I'd be in favour of this tightening up so the majority of players start hitting their caps quickly. 1 year rolling is good don't get me wrong but the limits are too wide. Perhaps a fixed percentage of the low index or sliding scale by index is better. A scratch golfer going out 3 shots is huge compared to someone on an index of 25.

My thought on this is that it restricts the bandits options and most players will have a comeback where they find their mojo again anyway. Obviously there are people with injuries/illness to consider but this is already covered under whs rules. Probably means hc committees doing a little more admin work and dealing with grumbles but should keep scoring more realistic.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483306#Comment_122483306

Very much agree with this. What would be deemed realistic scoring though ? Doesn't the very nature of WHS make good scores much more likely or even expected ? Like, if your index is an average of 8 scores, chances are you'll have beaten your index say in 4 of those scores. If someone happens to have a very good day, you can easily see how beating your handicap by several shots could be common enough, especially if you play a lot of golf and your index is generated over a couple of months. If, in theory, everyone in the field is now potentially a winner under WHS, with their index now being I suppose more "current", whereas I think before under CONGU probably at least half the field teeing it up on a Saturday had no chance, mostly from carrying a handicap that had a legacy cut from a hot round 2 years ago in it.

spacecoyote

https://online1.snapsurveys.com/interview/26c1c946-caa2-4fb7-9c32-08ffc0429983

Not being publicised much but this survey seems to be from USGA and the R&A looking for feedback on WHS.

People might be interested in sharing their opinions

PARlance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545314#Comment_122545314

I was a bit dubious about the authenticity of the survey but a quick search brought up confirmation from a few decent sources.

Nothing about it on the official site though which is a bit odd.

Seve OB

done the survey. Will be interesting to hear results though I expect nothing much will come of it

bakerbhoy

It's been communicated out through the clubs as far as I can see.

How many will complete is another question.

World wide survey.

redhill

Our club Winter League has started, only over 9 holes and non qualifying, however they are still applying the 95% rule to playing handicaps. This seems a bit unfair for just 9 holes, does anyone know if it’s supposed to be used for just 18 hole use only??

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744662#Comment_122744662

No, the 95% rule applies to all singles competitions.

Why do you think it's unfair?

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744662#Comment_122744662

How’s it unfair on anyone?

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744662#Comment_122744662

Because it's non-counting you can put 9 Mulligans in the rules for all anyone cares. Per Awec, singles is always 95% of course handicap for the playing handicap. My club is doing a singles stableford each week for winter but the league is a team format. So best 3 of the 4 individual scores on the team go into your total.

Also your playing handicap is not 50% of the 18 hole handicap. If playing F9 or B9, those sepcific set of tees will have it's own individual rating/slope. So you can have 2x different 9 hole handicaps. Then 95% of that and finally rounded to nearest whole number.

spacecoyote

You really wouldn't like my course if that's your case.

My club sets the slope to neutral for the Winter, as you could gain a shot in the winter league depending on which 9 you played.

Which also means you are just playing off your index, rounded, and not getting an adjustment for slope/cr

redhill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745140#Comment_122745140

I have a single figure handicap myself so I’m unaffected by it, however higher handicaps are, I just thought if it’s only 9 holes the difference shouldn’t be 95% , it should be a different percentage to accommodate only 9 holes been played

REFLINE1

..

srfc d16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122745887#Comment_122745887

The 2 9s in my club would also have a shot difference for some hcaps but for the winter league it is your best 4 scores on each 9 that count towards your final total. There is not advantage or disadvantage to playing either 9 on a given day as you will have to play each at least 4 times anyway.

bakerbhoy

Index:12.0

Low Index: 12.0

Home Club: You are in the Top 22%

Top 21% County

Top 18% Ireland

Would my course be rated too hard, to give this outcome statistically.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825651#Comment_122825651

I don't think you can infer if your course is hard or easy from what percentile you are in.

I think it shows that the standard of player at your club is higher than the average though.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825651#Comment_122825651

Hard / Easy - it's all relative. Some guys are short and straight, others long and wayward. Your course has a bit of room, so someone who is a bit wild will get away with a little and not find it too hard (relatively speaking). But when I was a member there I remember captains generally being played from the white tees because a lot of the members struggled with the length. And a decent number of members choosing not to play the medals because they just couldn't cope with the course from the blues.

The other thing with hard and easy courses is that it really depends on what you're aiming for. I find a lot of the courses considered to be some of the hardest aren't too bad, because I'm probably hoping for 18 bogeys on them. Holes that might be tough to par might not be too hard to avoid double or worse on.

bakerbhoy

I think the rating is giving lower indecies than those which are generally warranted. Scoring 32/34 stableford consistently points sees a h/cap either lower/remain static.

Erratic scoring is rewarded with upward movement.

kermitpwee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122479544#Comment_122479544

Enniscrone golf club you can pay your Sub with Prize Vouchers

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825920#Comment_122825920

I'd agree, it's with a few % margin for error. Also, the sample size of golfers will vary accordingly. Also the age profile of members, the coaching, # of rounds played, # of juniors and so on. So many variables to look at if you had the data.

One of my mates believes interclubs are a way of understanding "true" course difficulty. For example, the best club teams come from the "true" hardest courses. I don't agree with that, as being 8hc in one place does not mean you'll be a guaranteed 6hc in another easier course. Interclubs are matchplay and with foursomes, too. Some people and indeed many clubs excel in this format. Let's not mention banditry as that's another story.

I'm curious to see how some courses will be re-rated for 2025. We got assessed this year and haven't heard anything yet. A neighbouring course is rumoured to be removing a dozen plus bunkers which will significantly alter the difficulty.