Your New WHS Index

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541616#Comment_119541616

Current handicap 5.8

5 of 20 : 4.8 #winning

8 of 30 : 5.8

I like 5 of 20 but think 8 of 20 is fairer overall

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541821#Comment_119541821

If your run of form is that ongoing, would it not be safe to say that under the old system, you’d have had a string of 0.1s back all summer?

To the point that you’d have been looking at a handicap of 8 (maybe even 8.5) within the next few weeks,which isn’t a whole lot different to WHS?

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542026#Comment_119542026

He would have only gained 1 shot. So actually he could have been in a position where he may have struggled for 3 years before getting back to 9.

New system a much better representation of current form for the honest golfer. The many honest golfers shouldn't be punished for the sins of the few

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541821#Comment_119541821

And on top of that, most golfers going through a rough patch don't want their handicap to shoot up by a ridiculous amount. If I was playing awful for a period, it would take a bit of pressure off me knowing there was a hard cap of 1 or 2 shots and give me time to sort out what the issue is.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542084#Comment_119542084

Then @newport2 you really need to understand that you’re a bigger problem for the WHS system, than the high handicappers.

WHS is a measurement of form, no potential. If your current form is say a 10-handicap rather than say a 7-handicap, then you’re only cheating both the system and yourself to pretend you’re a 7 handicap..

It takes a while to adjust towards thinking like this., no doubt. But it’s necessary.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542050#Comment_119542050

Sorry, assuming a one shot cap, then yes of course.

Russman

So, if we assume for a moment, that the vast majority of golfers are not handicap cheats, what's the solution ? Like, if most scores/golfers are perfectly within the new system and no hookery going on, maybe its just a new reality we have to embrace ?

I don't get the strong handicap sec comments tbh, any punitive cut on someone (whether justified or not) can be removed from their record in about a month, or less, if they were really determined. Surely we can't go the route of a h/c sec setting a limit on what Joe can go out to, no matter how many rounds he plays, can we ? There are already caps in place within WHS anyway.

I just had a look at my own record there, and in my last 20 rounds (all this year), there's 16 shots between my highest and lowest rounds, and 8 shots between my high and low counting rounds (ie best and 8th best score). Obviously my h/c is more or less in the middle of these counting rounds, but even within those 8 I've beaten it a number of times by a few shots. I'm mid single figures, but I'd guess (?) a 20 handicap would show far greater variations in his high/low counting scores, so even within his current handicap index there are probably several rounds of 4. 5 or maybe 6 shots better than his h/c.

What the answer is, I don't know. Do we even know what the question is though ? or do we have to accept that winning scores under WHS are going to be better and probably more random as someone in the field will likely shoot way better than their handicap, whereas before under CONGU they were probably lower as CONGU was theoretically your potential, less likely to win ?

If the figures in the graph posted a few pages back, showing the scores narrowing in under WHS, is accurate, maybe a function of that is that previously under CONGU, you could probably take 80% of any field and say they had no chance at all, but now under WHS almost everyone has a chance of beating their average and having that hot score on a good day ?

All that said, having to have near 50 points is f--king madness no matter what the system is. Which probably negates all I've said above 😁. Maybe the high handicapper who pokes it down the middle is getting an extra 50 yards of run this summer with the dry conditions and that's playing into it ?

I've gone back through our last 10 Sunday results and there's nothing over 43pts or equivalent and mostly its in the 38-41 range that wins in each class. Certainly nothing in the 48/50 range.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541821#Comment_119541821

Totally get what you're saying, but isn't that exactly what WHS is supposed to show, i.e. your current form rather than your underlying level or ability ? It kinda makes sense that your handicap reflects how you're playing at the moment I think.

I honestly don't have a strong view on WHS either way, but I think we're all too guilty of looking at scores and performances through CONGU eyes, if that makes sense. Even talking to my father about it we'll see a score and maybe say something like "jeez he'll lose a good chunk of his h/c for that score" forgetting that he actually may or may not, depending on that individual's record.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542084#Comment_119542084

What would the pressure be for though ? Missing out on a team or something, or just not wanting to be x shots higher than before ?

OEP

Anecdotally it seems that some clubs have an issue and others don't. I'd be interested to understand the differences in the clubs. Do the clubs with very high scores have a high turnover of members, or lots of new members? My club would have very low turnover and a small amount of new members each year - a small town club, and we don't really have the issue of crazy scores.

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542277#Comment_119542277

I guess I meant putting a lot of work into getting my handicap down, then I don't want making a swing change to undo all of that. Yes, I could abstain from comps for a while, but at our club you can't play on a Saturday without entering. One thing I did like about the old system is that once you went up a shot, nothing else was going to change until you improved again.

@thewobbler I don't see how someone at a lower handicap than their current form is going to be a big problem, they won't win anything. Anyway, I was just speaking hypothetically. I never said I'd pretend to be a lower handicapper than I was or that I would "cheat the system", that's a big leap. I just said that I would prefer my handicap not to shoot up for a temporary issue. When it does happen, I'll just have to accept it going up quickly by several shots.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542116#Comment_119542116

but he is not a bigger problem

he is looking for a solution to the problem of high handicaps winning by loads of shots.

you are effectively saying its fine that he has loads of shots now cause he is playing crap.

but when he goes out on saturday week and the stars align for him and he shoots a 48 pointer to win the presidents prize, you will probably be giving out that nobody has a chance of winning if there are 48 points coming in

PARlance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542084#Comment_119542084

Another side to it is injuries, I tore my achilles tendon earlier this year and have been hobbling around life/the course lately. I'm at the stage now (have counting rounds coming up) were I need to decide if I'm going to play anymore competitions this year.

Part of it is ego for sure, not wanting to go up another 2-3 shots, but a bigger part of it is knowing that when I get back to normal I will be off a higher handicap than I should really be. Now I might struggle off that higher HC but I would really prefer the old system / 1 shot hard cap.

Seve OB

For me, as I say a member of 2 clubs.

Club A, playing 30 years. best ever score is +8 gross, followed by a couple of +10's. Pretty much all my CONGU golf scores came from here and gave me a handicap of 12-13. I could play better than that though, as I said, just found my course tough. I have had countless of scores between +5 and +10 at other venues over the years. As a result I've had more than my fair share of heckles over the years about being a bandit off 12. A pro caddy describes my golf as being the best 12 handicapper in the world 🤣

So what WHS has done is to look at how hard and easy courses stack up, and give appropriate adjustments to handicaps which is fantastic and I don't think anybody can dispute this is a brilliant addition. The only problem I have is WHS ranks my home club as easy 😂

club B i've had a good few scores between +6 & +10 (as I say, I find it easier). So CONGU me was able to stick in a 79 on a good day at club B (quite doable)

My index is now 15.7. this gives me 15 shots in competition in club A or 18 in club B 🤓 Honestly its a good job my handicap is well spread as now I've only 3 scores from club A counting (or else I would be considerably higher) But.... I can still play. I just got a dose of the putting yips, head is fried over chips. other issues of course, playing less etc. Between those 2 single issues though, I'm giving up about 6-9 shots a round easily. But I have had days where the hole has been like a bucket and I can't miss. I'm driving the ball as well as ever, lost some distance on short irons (im spinning them to high Slice) it will get fixed, I have no doubt. I'm actually close to shooting something decent.

And I've no doubt the day will come when I will shoot a 79 in Club B to come home with 48 points off 18. so just as @newport2 above, Do I want that? heck no. I get enough slagging (rightly deserved for my inflated handicap)

so for the likes of @Rikand @thewobbler @Wobbler , yes the new system is about current form, but it should also take account of ability. you need to lift your head out of the sand on that.

thewobbler

@Seve OB i don’t think it’s head in the sand stuff from “us” so much as an unwillingness to let go from the “other side” of the argument.

Every single golfer alive can play better than their current handicap. But there’s always something - almost certainly related to flawed technique in one or more aspects of the game - that prevents them from doing so.

Your argument would seem to be based around preventing at all costs the madness that could unfold when a player has a day when that flaw (or flaws) is under control, or perhaps is tested less than usual.

My argument would be that raw analysis of numbers makes this scenario really quite unlikely to happen to any single golfer. If it hasn’t happened in the past 20 rounds - 3-4 months of summer golf for most Irish club golfers - then these flaws are the constants, the realities, the norm of a man’s golf game. hence his handicap is real.

this is why I suggest that people who think they’re say a 12 handicapper, but in reality are a 15 handicapper, need to rewire their thought processes and get on board. WHS doesn’t make you a 15 handicapper. Your golf game does.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542050#Comment_119542050

Should we be trying to level out "form" though?

If you are out of form then you shouldnt be winning or competing, thats kinda the definition of out of form? Otherwise you could recalculate handicaps after every hole, just to make sure everyone has a good chance of shooting 36 points everytime.

The people in form should stand a better chance of winning than those out of form...if not, then its not a sport anymore.

Our Captains Prize was interesting this year:

Winner had 2 rounds over 100 with just under 2 shots per hole.

1st Round: 4 Triples, 6 doubles, 7 bogeys, 1 par

2nd Round: 1 Quintuple (a 9), 4 Triples, 6 doubles, 2 bogeys, 4 pars and 1 birdie

For context, usually 2 or 3 under over the 2 days would walk it.

El Guapo!

I didn't think the average blood pressure was high enough in here, so here's a winning score from a recent comp a friend of mine played in.

.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543052#Comment_119543052

well yes and no. i'll use myself as an example. i have all the ability and skill to be a single figure golfer. i never was, and never claimed i had the right to be. i was a good 12.

i'm still a good 12, but form in recent months has deserted me. i still have the game though. but what happens why my game comes good and i shoot a capable round of +6 with my 18 handicap..... is that fair? not in my eyes and clearly not in the eyes of most posters here with yourself and @Rikand being the exceptions.

all i've sad is that there needs to be a compromise. you guys dont agree and by default think that it is ok for someone to shoot 50 points.

so maybe you should look in the mirror when you claim "unwillingness to let it go from the other side"

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

WHS probably hasn't been accurate for players like me who only submit rounds when playing competitions and no casual rounds. I do a lot of solo practice during the week, either on the range or odd holes here and there and only really play with others and submit rounds in weekend comps. If I can't play for a couple of weekends but am still getting out to practice in the evenings during the week, odds are my form is improving faster than my handicap can catch up. It means I probably only have about 14 rounds submitted this year on my record even though I've actually played a lot of golf over the summer, most of it just solo practice. For players like me I think the old CONGU system based on potential was probably a more accurate reflection of my handicap.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543196#Comment_119543196

You ask “Is that fair”?

it’s the exact same scenario for every single golfer who goes through an extended period of poor golf.

its the same for everyone. So yeah, in my opinion it is fair.

——

I don’t know how many rounds you’ve played this year. But the average differential of your best 8 rounds over the past 20 rounds (which is a fair chunk of anyone’s competitive season) is 18.

That’s your WHS handicap index. It will improve again when your form improves again. Everyone seems to understand this concept on the thread, but acceptance is the bigger issue.

And can we maybe acknowledge that if the max level of professional athletes (including golfers) can fluctuate readily between seasons, and eventually will lose their ability to compete at a certain level, then amateur and casual golfers might do the same?

thewobbler

@GreeBo ”The people in form should stand a better chance of winning than those out of form...if not, then its not a sport anymore”.

This is inarguable.

But the likes of Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton and Darren Clark winning 3 of the past 19 Open Championships doesn’t diminish the value of the tournament, nor does it change the fact that each year the top 25 in-form players in the field will each year stand a better chance of winning it than the 125 next.

Does the Open make you unhappy when an outsider wins it?

Miley Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543196#Comment_119543196

But if you are "a good 12" then you would have an index somewhere around 11 or 12. You don't, therefore you are a 16 handicapper. Everyone could play better obviously, but to reduce your index by four shots you would need to play significantly better over a decent period of time in order to get back down to being "a good 12". 95% of people would like a lower index than they have but are not realistic about their current level ie; not as good as they think they are.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543196#Comment_119543196

I don't mean to offend you or anything here but if you have never been a single figure golfer, and your lowest is 12 (?) then you don't have the ability to be a single figure golfer. We all think we're better than we are and that our game is close and that once it clicks we'll shoot really low scores!

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543061#Comment_119543061

That’s the nub of it really isn’t it ? How far should any handicapping system go in levelling things out ? I guess in the pro game form is everything, but in the amateur game its a more open ended question. To me, a 10 handicapper who hasn’t played to it in 12 months (assuming regular golf), isn’t actually a 10 handicapper. He might have once been one and might be again, but right now he isn’t. Obviously the grey or contentious area is where do we draw the line with handicapping. Congu essentially covered it up for us because the 10 h/c would feel that on his day he could still shoot 10 over (or better) and play off 10, and 8 months of shooting 26pts was just him “playing bad”, but he was still a 10 handicapper. We all bought into this and accepted it as the norm but WHS basically now says, no, for your last 20 games you’re playing like an 18 handicapper so you’re off 18. Is there a happy medium to be found ?

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542390#Comment_119542390

That’s fair and the one shot max increase was often a nice comfort blanket for me too at times. I say this respectfully not argumentatively, is there an element of ego in that ? Like, I got to 4 handicap (or whatever it is) and I don’t want it to go up. I’d take the view that your handicap isn’t fixed and will change and if I got to 4 before I’ll do it again. It’s much harder to stay low than to get low anyway imho.

DuckSlice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542240#Comment_119542240

Yea that is true and i agree with others that say it would drive them on to get lower again. I'm just frustrated as i havnet been playing much and thats the reason for the bad form more so than I'm not as good as i used to be 12 months ago. (Although the scores say i am not :D)

Whatever the system the goal is the same for me, get out there and try to Break my personal best, and if everyone done this everytime they play we wouldnt be having this discussion :D

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543448#Comment_119543448

I'd agree with all that and there's definitely an element of ego in it. I've no issue with WHS with regards to my own handicap and how it works. I was merely pointing out that the 1 shot cap was an element of the congo system I preferred. Allowed you to make changes mid-season if you wanted to, knowing your handicap could only rise by 1 shot.

patsat

What score wins it is irrelevant really, if it's 30 points or 50 points. The real issue I can see is there is no incentive to reward "good" golf.

How about a graduated way of applying a playing handicap? So let's say for the Majors, playing handicap is something like 60% of your course handicap. This would really tighten up the shots given to everyone.

For example, course handicaps of 5, 15 and 25 would result in playing handicaps of 3, 9 and 15 as opposed to 5, 14 and 24 when the traditional 95% is applied.

It would mean that in order to win, the higher the handicap you have, the better you have to score compared to your index. Which in turn means if you want to win off a big handicap, your gonna be cut more than usual.

And then for the likes of weekend and open singles, revert to the 95% of course index. That should accommodate the more casual golfers. As in fairness, I don't think any casual golfer should be really winning a major like a presidents or captain's prize unless they absolutely shoot the best round of their lives.

*For context, I'm playing golf myself less than a year with my index coming from high twenties down to 20.3 so far. And I really don't think it would have been suitable for someone at my level to win one of those competitions this year whilst others were out there playing much better stuff than I am.

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540897#Comment_119540897

But this in itself shows the problem is not solely with high WHS handicaps! Your 4 handicapper shoots 48 points for 8 under! That is mad scoring in it's own right. That's better than the majority of Professional rounds. I'd suggest the problem is with the course. Or perhaps the 4 handicapper should be a +4 ?

paulos53

I just spotted that in a former club of mine the President's Prize was won with 97 pts over 36 holes. 50 in round 1 and 47 in round 2 with a playing handicap of 27.

I have removed the names but note the sarcasm in the results on the club website.

"Player A was closely followed in second place by Player B with 83points and 3rd place Player C with 77 points."