Your New WHS Index

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580433#Comment_119580433

I'm in the process of getting these stats for my club also. I don't have the winning numbers like you @spacecoyote but I do have the HI and handicaps for our usual tees and the distribution is very similar to the distribution of your winners.

Our 2 stableford comps last weekend with around 200 golfers yielded winners both days on 42 points. Of the 4 top 2 golfers, 3 had 42 and 1 had 40 with handicaps of 21, 12, 13, 14.

4 x division winners each day had 37-40 points with a mix of high and low across the 4 divisions.

I'd say this would be indicative of most weekends. Most people that I've discussed it with seem to consider it fair. No indication of high handicap golfers winning the prizes.

I think some courses lend themselves to higher scores from the high handicap golfers. Slope rating is done on the basis of a bogey golfer's ability. As a bogey golfer myself roughly, I know there's a fair difference between my level and most of the 24 handicappers. There's always the 3 or 4 holes on our course they'll really struggle with (water mostly) that aren't on other courses.

Salvadoor

https://www.golfireland.ie/news-detail?newsarticleid=706&tags=Golf%20Ireland%20HQ;WHS

Time for one of us to step up to the mark and fix the system from the inside ;-)

big_drive

Open singles in Donegal golf club last week won with 50 points. Players handicap wasn't listed so not sure what gross score, etc was

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588928#Comment_119588928

Curious if that was just your bog standard Open Singles (qualifier or normal weekkly comp for example). If so, I'd lean towards the person being young etc.

It's the Monthly Medals, Captain's Prize, President's Prize, Free Sub comps that the real smart lads come out to play their best Golf

blue note

I had a quick look at the top three in our medals and captains this year. The average winning score was -4.5 shots net. The average third place score -1.4. And the average handicap of each of the top three spots was between 15 and 16. Highest winning handicap was 22 and lowest 10.

I thought after reading this thread that the average scores in those big competitions would be closer to -6 or -8. And the average winning handicap above 20, especially with the odd handicap over 30 winning.

FixdePitchmark

If people think 50 pts in any event..is any way forward for golf ...I give up..

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589180#Comment_119589180

No matter what your level, being 14 better than handicap is some scoring

charlieIRL

I’ve gone back through the last few results in my home course, all competitions played off the blue tees.

Highest winning score was 43 but mainly around 38/40 points.

For example Chairman’s Prize

Division 1 - 39

Division 2 - 39

Division 3 - 40

Division 4 - 39

Mondays open day was won with 36!

No crazy high scores coming in

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589180#Comment_119589180

Don’t think anybody can say otherwise really

Genuinely now, the way I can envisage it happening is just two ways:

1) Younger person got genuine handicap and hasn’t played any scoring round of golf in x amount of time. Has improved in the meantime and is able to play to a far lower handicap

2) Person threw in 3 fake high scorecards to get their initial handicap and have gone out now and shot this

newport2

Captain's Prize - 87 points over 2 days

Vice-Captain's - 49 points

Presidents - 51 points

The medals were won with often reasonable scores, so strokes obviously levels things a bit.

I think a big factor is the size of the club/field. Obviously the bigger the field, the better chance of someone doing it and the comps above had 250-300 entries. I don't think it's down to bandits, it's just the way WHS works.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589328#Comment_119589328

There is no way anyone should be in a comp till they have 20 rounds in ...none.

I know we dumbing down golf ...but that is just dumb...

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589574#Comment_119589574

I think 20 is too restrictive

Limit that to 10 and I’d be inclined to agree

spacecoyote

Still think a separate comp/class for sub 20 round guys would be a fair compromise

Miley Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589640#Comment_119589640

I think 20 is perfectly reasonable because your handicap isn't actually correct until you have 20 played

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589733#Comment_119589733

Ya - Not sure why clubs couldn’t do that actually, having a ‘Sub 20 Cards’ Category

Seems fair

FixdePitchmark

One of the hardest games in the world and we are, "work away buddy" "full comp"..I think it was 4 years before I got on a full course.

(Not saying the past is right) but come on , a bit of a rite of passage.....

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589574#Comment_119589574

Easy for a links player to say this.

most of us only have 6 months a year to play our qualifying golf. Up till last week I still had 3 2021 rounds on my card and that was me putting in 4-5 supplementary scores (which some people don’t think should be allowed).

so no, I disagree with you, regular comps should be ok to compete in once you have your initial handicap (54 holes). Keep medals and minor majors maybe to 5 rounds. Maybe even cap the allowable handicap (28). As much as I would limit a full handicap record (20 rounds) would be for Captains/ Presidents.

FixdePitchmark

So your disagreeing but applying to the much vaulted and problematic events

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589869#Comment_119589869

Your missing the point ...with whs it is unbelievably easier to get 20 rounds in versus old system.

If I was being charitable I'd even enable 9 holes...

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589804#Comment_119589804

Better than Germany where you need a licence to play on any course, I kid you not

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590257#Comment_119590257

Good old Germans...normally do things right

(Well except world war 2 in fairness)

spacecoyote

It's not the worst idea in the world, think its in place in a number of mainland Europe countries.

Idea of having some basic proficiency before heading out on the course is not terrible

spacecoyote

@Seve OB we had a guy in our place win a comp on his 5th round. As you can see he dropped 20 strokes from round 4 to 5, and had a PH of 48 when he won the comp.

By just letting the algorithm determine handicaps starting out, he ends up with a 48 handicap after 3 rounds, he wouldn't have gotten that, even with those 3 cards under CONGU, so when he dropped 20 strokes in a week, he wouldn't have shot 49 points.

I think that's the law of minimum 5 cards or any smaller number. For someone new to the game, especially if they're young enough to be in any way fit, you're going to see the above happening repeatedly.

That's why I'd suggest a sub-20 class in comps as the swings are just too enormous until you reach 20 and it should be in a reasonable pattern. You're still competing, just against people who are in the same boat as yourself

spacecoyote

Took a look at some of the scoring in the ladies comps in my place, as I was scanning through and it looks very similar in terms if skewing higher with scores and handicaps

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589804#Comment_119589804

You're not going to gain new members if you exclude them from competitions for a full season. A lot of clubs need new members

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590443#Comment_119590443

Can be a member...can play casual and count ...can become curious about what a competition is ...can even be in the competition but not win a prize.

If someone not willing to do above ...I don't want them in my competition...can be a member.

If someone genuinely wants to take up the game they will easily do that in a season...

If you want to run a marathon...nobody seriously thinks you just turn up.

Min requirements for our sport.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590397#Comment_119590397

Ah well there is a difference (IMO anyway) in excluding golfers because some golfers have wrong handicaps (because WHS is facilitating that).

ive already mentioned above, golf has evolved to be more inclusive and not to discriminate and to encourage more people into the sport.

it’s not going to happen that this gets reversed (nor should it IMO)

the happy compromise is to limit the bigger comps to those with a fully developed HI (which a lot of clubs do). But you cannot do this for all comps, it just not right.

say I’m new to the game, I join a club now and get my HI. Then qualifying stops. I only play once a week. It’s gonna be the middle of next summer before I’m allowed play in comps????? That’s just wrong.

and I know you say let them have their own comp, but I don’t agree with that either. Because maybe there is only 1 or 2 people without fully developed handicaps. Or maybe there are loads and Do you then split the guys with <5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20?

The problem is not with the number of scores on their record, it’s the way their handicap is being calculated.

FixdePitchmark

Them scores posted by space are genuinely a joke...how on earth could a lad win anything after 5 rounds.....genuinely mad stuff....

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590518#Comment_119590518

You should get a job in the R&A.

oh wait

they wouldn’t have ya 😂

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590539#Comment_119590539

They might look at your handicap.

You love cups and prizes ...be right up your street....