Your New WHS Index

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698533#Comment_119698533

You can have counting scores, it's up to the clubs to set up their winter competitions in a manner that is counting. Golf Ireland would have circulated info on this to HC/comp secretaries in the past. I recall reading that the course must be using an official slope (and not more than 10% shorter), preferred lies on fairways and in rough only embedded relief is allowed. No club-length drops either. There are probably some minor local rules that can also be accepted.

Casual water is already covered and allowed in normal rules, it's not particular to winter rules.

Scoring is usually better in winter due to dropping everywhere with 1 club length allowed and getting a nice lie each time. Forward tees also help. Crucially balls hit the green like a javelin with no rollout on the soft ground.

There are some courses that are playable year-round and barely need winter rules. You can play competitions/opens there to beat the band. Now if you want to stand on a bare links course near the coast in December you're a braver person than me 😀.

blue note

Tramore used to have counting comps all year round by having placing on the fairway only. It worked fine, more places should do it.

But if you give relief for going in the rough or have temp greens or bunkers out of play or make the course too short (green tees moved way forward) then you have to suck it up and not count the round. You're just not playing the course properly.

Seve OB

Right, mad one here, can anyone relate?

I'm a bit of a numbers geek and like to work things out for myself rather than just accepting what I'm told. So ages ago I exported a pile of my scores going back to August 2020 from Golf Ireland (WHS Index on the day played along with Score Diff ).

I have just looked back through them and have noticed a good few of both SD & WHS have changed for a number of my rounds on Golf Ireland???????? WTF???? HOW????? It's not a massive difference, but it does change my low index slightly which is how I spotted it.

But what has happened? It looks like really only the SD's were changed but this in turn had a knock on effect on the WHS figures. The first thing I spotted is a SD difference in December 2020. I had a 13.6 on my record. It is now showing as a 12.7. The knock on effect seems to be that my next round which was played off a WHS of 11.6 is now being shown as being played off an index of 11.5. Naturally more of the WHS figures have changed after this as a result.

Now I do know that a couple of months ago, this course had its slope adjusted downward. So it looks like those updates have been applied retrospectively to rounds already played and handicaps have been adjusted accordingly.

Furthermore I've played a good bit on this course and notice that not all the subsequent SD's have been changed. I also noted that the next round was played on a different course, which I don't believe has had an update. My course handicap would have been different (yes that .1 made a difference). The result here is that the SD was also adjusted.

I'm only speculating as to the reason for these changes, but they are definitely there and I find it quite odd. To me it makes sense that course ratings & slopes change over time, but any rounds played should be locked in at what they were played at. For example, if the changes were made because a course had new easier greens, fewer bunkers, shorter etc, how can a retrospective adjustment to an essentially different course be allowed?

Going back the 2 years, I can see 6 of my SD's have been adjusted. It doesn't have any real impact on my own handicap, but if I didn't have as moany rounds on my record, it would definitely caused changes.

EDIT:

Actually just looking a bit further back, I see a lot more lower SD's than before. I don't have the comparison, but I see some low SD's that I would have remembered from before, the likes of a 5.9 which is now on my record would certainly have stuck in my mind 😁

blue note

Any really good rounds in there? I think I got an esr from mount juliet and they seem to do it by reducing my counting rounds sd by 1.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699480#Comment_119699480

nope not that

Golfgraffix

Could be when they changed the 9 hole calculation a few months ago. They did it retrospectively

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701481#Comment_119701481

that’s a possibility alright. Did notice the first one I mentioned above was a 9 hole score

Della31

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119696388#Comment_119696388

Thanks Colicam,

good to know and more effort than maybe its worth appreciate the response,

septicsac

Played in club open yesterday, parkland course, with placing through the greens.

Initially my score registered on golf Ireland and my index adjusted, but it has since disappeared and index has reverted to previous one.

Is this because of placing through greens?

1. If my club has placing through the greens for competitions, will my score register on golf Ireland and in turn effect my handicap index?

If there is placing on fairways only, and either play as lies in rough or clean and drop in the rough, will my score register on golf Ireland?

3. Can we play clean and place on fairways only for casual golf, regardless of club comp rules, ie not playing in competitions and register score through golf Ireland app?

Gringuss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775431#Comment_119775431

The course deleted your score as it was input when conditions were placing through the green. You can only count score for handicap when it's preferred lies on fairways only. If the course conditions of the day are 'placing through the green' then you can't (shouldn't) choose to play by a different set of rules in general play rounds. I assume it's placing through the green to protect the course from excess divot damage when the ground is so soft. Placing on top of the rough significantly reduces the damage to the course in winter, but unfortunately there will be no handicap qualifying scoring.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775431#Comment_119775431

There is also an option that your club can run though and keep qualifying.

You can have lift, clean and REPLACE in the rough, so maybe worth talking to your home club as an option.

Means you have to put the ball back in its identical spot when off the fairways rather than improve your lie.

blue note

I wouldn't like to see clubs do that. I just wouldn't trust golfers to not improve their lie. Even unintentionally, I think a lot of people would never put it back in as bad a lie as they found it.

Similar to the placing within 6 inches. Some (hopefully most) do it correctly. But I reckon lots of people treat it as a guideline rather than actual limit. Like the 3 steps in hurling. That's the rule, but if I saw someone pulled up for taking 5 I'd say that's very harsh.

gman127

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787903#Comment_119787903

This is a discussion that I keep having. You'd like to think most would follow the rules but even for the minority that don't at least they would now get a handicap cut for their efforts rather than carrying on all winter on an inflated handicap hoovering up all round them

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699405#Comment_119699405

Could it have been a retrospective PCC calculation ? Lately I've noticed some of my score differentials changing overnight because the PCC presumably isn't done until the competition is closed off. Its funny, I don't remember seeing a PCC on any of our results up until about 3/4 weeks ago, and there's been one every time since then, granted the weather has been appalling for each of the 3 weekends.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790521#Comment_119790521

They also made a change to the algorithm (I think) that calculates PCC to make it morel likely - something like it being needed 10% of the time to 15% of the time. I might be off with those numbers though

billy3sheets

During non-qualifying competition times, there are basically 2 options as WHS is inactive.

1. Competitions committee deducts points off prize winners for subsequent comps. This requires some admin effort and can slow down publication of results. It's entirely local to the club and does not impact HI.
2. Handicaps committee makes observations of scoring and implements it's own system to apply adjustments to repeat high scorers/winners. Also requires admin effort but can be done after comps. This system is entirely local to the club but impacts HI.

Option 1 is preferable but not always easy to implement.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790571#Comment_119790571

As a member of 2 clubs, option 2 might not be available to to all as the handicap record is held at another club.

option 1 best IMO

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790521#Comment_119790521

Yes I thought that initially. I did notice one round had a PCC but I didn’t spot if it had previously been there. I think GG got it spot on, but possibly a mix of both

billy3sheets

Very few are members of 2 clubs I think 🤔

Seve OB

Well I have finally been proved correct. I told yiz that despite going out from 11 to to 15.6 (was actually 16.3 at one stage not to long ago) since the introduction of WHS, that I still have the potential to be a single figure handicapper. I was kinda laughed at here and told my handicap is what it is because I have become crap (which in fairness I was but I have been hitting the ball well in recent months, just scoring crap).

I knew I had one coming, just didn't know when. Mind you, it would have been nice if it came in a meaningful competition, so hopefully because it only for the Christmas dinner, I mightn't get to much stick lol

About 6 weeks ago I saw the first signs of it @ the Boards captains prize, think I parred the first 6 holes and turned with 24 points in Mount Juliet. Only to capitulate on the back 9 and finish with a grand total of 36 points. Justification to you lads who claimed that my handicap is correct because I couldnt keep it going for 18 holes.

But I firmly believe that WHS MUST take into effect someone's proven ability. Ie, historic scores. The last 20, just doesn't cut the mustard.

I shot my best round ever on Saturday (well matched a score I shot about 15 years ago(and I'm not saying a 15 years old score should be considered)). It was in fairness a lot easier with winter rules, playing off the white which were really the greens on lots of holes, placing etc and I got the rub of the green on a few occasions.

I shot 77 in Castleknock (par 72) for 48 points and the Christmas dinner.

It wasn't quite a flash in the pan, because I followed it up yesterday with an 81 and 44 points..... for the plum pudding 😁

I should be embarrassed, I guess I am, but I'm to be honesty, I'm just f^%$ing delighted that I got the ball in the hole and shot 2 single figure rounds back to back.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845001#Comment_119845001

first of all, well done, that’s great scoring.

but If analysing the information provided, the cynic in me can’t help thinking if you’re just about a single index when it’s your home course, playing shorter, and with placing allowed (plus you admittedly played very well)…. then you’re maybe not a single index at all (though 15 would be much too generous).

Seve OB

It’s not my home course but my second club which I happen to find much easier than my home course. Technically according to slope index, it is considerably harder! Also everyone agrees that the sloping on it is incorrect.

again, not saying I’m single index (yet) but rather I have the proven ability. I do realise it takes more than one bumper round in easy conditions

yes, 15 is to generous which is the point. WHS is flawed.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845001#Comment_119845001

Great shooting Seve, was always on the cards.

Can I put my name down for a Christmas ham, in case you start building up a few credits in the Christmas shootouts 😉

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845402#Comment_119845402

I’ve only played it once and it was very playable, albeit off the greens. I know most of our group scores heavily that day. So it is surprising to see that I’d get 3 more strokes there than I would on my home course.

Still, very well done. For I think everyone should be able to agree that apart from when a windy links bears its teeth, it’s not really the course that presents the biggest challenge to rattling up a big score, it’s you, yourself, alone.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845001#Comment_119845001

Great scoring, and hopefully you can keep it up. Going by your logic, if I shoot level par, does that mean I have the potential to be a scratch player?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846094#Comment_119846094

I shot a +5 round. I’ve shot loads of rounds better than 10 over. I said I have the potential to be a single digit handicapper. Never claimed I had potential to play off 5.

so you are twisting what I said

FixdePitchmark

I think the vast majority of golfers have the potential to be single figure players...but it takes hard work , determination and lots and lots of time....

Potential is just wasted energy ..

OEP

I just think this talking about potential is nonsense to be honest, especially with golf because scores are so variable. I'd say the majority of people with a handicap of up to 16 have shot better rounds than +10. You're either able to consistently do it or not, and that's the real difference.

And I hope you do do it consistently.

Edit: Also given that you're handicap is essentially an average, anyone with a handicap up to 13 or 14 generally has a round or two better than +10 in their best 8.

blue note

I wouldn't be as definitive as "it proves you right", but it's certainly relevant to the discussion!

Firstly, well done! I think my game / scores / handicap trend might not be a million miles from yours over the last while. Although I've never shot a round of +5. But before WHS came in I was off 13. When it came in I went out to 15. And as time went on I went out to 18.4 at its highest. As regards whether than handicap was accurate - I'd say it was for how I was playing, for the course I was playing and that courses WHS rating. At 18.4 playing from the whites I was probably getting 17 shots in the round. For me to come in with 38 points I had to play really well by my standards. I still haven't broken 36 points there in competition since January 2020 and I've never hit 40. But if I went around +15 there, which was really good by my standards, that would give me a score differential of about +17. I'm not going to come down much from that. As regards potential - it's not meaningless, but I wouldn't put much weight in it. I'll often go on runs of good golf in a round - it wouldn't be unusual for me to be +2 over a 9 hole stretch in a round, but all that matters is your score after 18. I've been like that all my life, so I wouldn't worry too much about it being potential. You could make an equally strong case for the 18 handicapper who is all bogies - he's keeping the doubles off his card and is bound to start recording a few more pars soon, so should be much lower. And as regards the potential of that guy strikes it well, can hit it far, etc. If he's playing a lot and hasn't come down yet he needs to sort out his swing to get more consistency. And if he's not playing much it doesn't matter, he'll never get consistency until he does.

With all that said - I do find there's an issue with WHS in relation to course ratings. Your home course is greystones which is a very short course I hear? In which case I assume it's considered an easy course on WHS. And I assume it actually isn't. Please correct me if any of that is wrong. But I'm guessing a round of +10 in Castleknock is similar in difficulty to you to a round of +10 in Greystones? But for your score differential you're probably getting one of +11 in greystones compared to +8 in castle knock. So if Greystones had been rated appropriately, your handicap would never have gone out to +15. A very similar story to me in Corballis. I've submitted 13 rounds this year, 10 of them on away courses. None of the 3 home rounds are counting. And I've come down 5.3 shots from the away rounds. And if I'd remembered to declare the Tullamore one it would be 5.8 from 11 rounds. I am playing better, but the biggest reason for the drop is related to my suitability to the courses and their ratings compared to my home course.

My guess is that your handicap will always be higher as a member in greystones than it would be on a course like castleknock. And introducing a lower cap for handicap increases won't really affect it, because it's not just your game that's leading to the higher handicap, it's the course (rating).

So is that a problem with the system? Kind of. I said before it came in that rating unusual courses would be a problem. I do think that there's a solution in terms of looking at the scores on the courses. If people from greystones and corballis are shooting much lower scores on away courses and vice versa, then the ratings must be wrong. But I don't believe many are calling for any changes to how course ratings are done.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848446#Comment_119848446

I'd imagine the rule of thumb that longer courses are harder holds up most of the time for most golfers? I have no data to back this up but most golfers get themselves into trouble more often with the driver than other clubs. If you don't need to use a driver, and still have a wedge into the green then generally scores will be lower. I generally find shorter courses easier, even tight shorter courses.