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Your New WHS Index

1…5681011…95

Comments

  • #212
    gypsy79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Ceepo wrote: »
    It works out the same calculation.
    No it doesnt. There are two levels of rounding which is initially seemingly very confusing


  • #213
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    Golfgraffix wrote: »
    I’m not sure a fully agree with the 95%, I was just talking with a fellow member on the this.

    Imagine, for instance, a singles competition on a course with a slope of 113. All players will play off their handicap index. However, a "bogey" player will lose 5% (a full shot for a 20 handicapper) whereas the scratch player won't lose anything. How can that be fair?

    Well the scratch player has no shots to start with?


  • #214
    Ceepo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    No it doesnt. There are two levels of rounding which is initially seemingly very confusing

    To clarify the way i calculated it.
    My Hi 21*120 (slope) /113 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

    Is this correct? Or am i totally confused


  • #215
    gypsy79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Ceepo wrote: »
    To clarify the way i calculated it.
    My Hi 21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

    Is this correct? Or am i totally confused

    21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3 rounded to 22*0.95 = 20.9 rounded to 21

    Same result, slightly different methodology


  • #216
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    Ceepo wrote: »
    To clarify the way i calculated it.
    My Hi 21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

    Is this correct? Or am i totally confused

    I think you use 22 for the 95% calculation, in the same way that in a fourball comp it’s 90% of your playing handicap not your exact handicap in the old system. Still 21 would be playing handicap anyway.


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  • #217
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Ceepo wrote: »
    It works out the same calculation.

    It’s only the same when your Playing handicap is single figures

    By the way I was more answering your second point where you said like your HI is not really your HI if you have to take 95% of it

    And that’s it’s unnecessarily confusing


  • #218
    gypsy79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Seve OB wrote: »
    It’s only the same when your Playing handicap is single figures

    Not technically true but more likely to work out the same.

    I really dont know why they needed round twice


  • #219
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Not technically true but more likely to work out the same.

    Why not? 95% of any number less than or including 10, when rounded will be the same number.


  • #220
    gypsy79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Seve OB wrote: »
    Why not? 95% of any number less than or including 10, when rounded will be the same number.

    Example 1.4 on a course with Slope 122

    First Method = 1.4 * (122/113) * 0.95 = 1.43 rounded to 1

    Second Method = 1.4 * (122/113) = 1.511 rounded to 2 and then 2 * 0.95 = 1.9 rounded to 2


  • #221
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Example 1.4 on a course with Slope 122

    First Method = 1.4 * (122/113) * 0.95 = 1.43 rounded to 1

    Second Method = 1.4 * (122/113) = 1.511 rounded to 2 and then 2 * 0.95 = 1.9 rounded to 2

    I said playing handicap.
    Your first method of calculating is incorrect. Playing handicap for that course is 2. It is only at this point that you calculate 95%.


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  • #222
    gypsy79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Seve OB wrote: »
    I said playing handicap.
    Your first method of calculating is incorrect. Playing handicap for that course is 2. It is only at this point that you calculate 95%.

    Yes that is true. But the OP started off doing the whole calc the incorrect way


  • #223
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭Russman


    There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
    In my case:
    HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
    So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
    Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.


  • #224
    redzerdrog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,750 ✭✭✭redzerdrog


    Russman wrote: »
    There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
    In my case:
    HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
    So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
    Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.
    B I think, about 95% sure! :-)


  • #225
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Russman wrote: »
    There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
    In my case:
    HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
    So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
    Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.

    yes B


  • #226
    Ceepo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    Seve OB wrote: »
    yes B

    So basically you round twice then.
    Firstly to get your course handicap (which means very little as its going to be 95% of this)
    The after getting 95% of the course handicap rounded number.

    Someone somewhere didnt do a good job of making things simple


  • #227
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    So basically you round twice then.
    Firstly to get your course handicap (which means very little as its going to be 95% of this)
    The after getting 95% of the course handicap rounded number.

    Someone somewhere didnt do a good job of making things simple
    I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.


  • #228
    Ceepo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.

    Im sure down the road when everyone gets used of the new system it will work out fine.
    But it doesn't seem (to me at least) to be a simplified starting system, when you have a blank canvas to start from..


  • #229
    yawhat?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭yawhat?


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.

    Are you absolutely certain about this? I haven’t seen it articulated anywhere that you round twice. I know that integer course handicaps were circulated by Golf Ireland, but I don’t see where it is specified that the integer course handicap is used before applying the playing adjustment.

    The official published rules state specifically that you do not round The course handicap before applying the playing adjustment. A number of English clubs also have examples of the calculation with no rounding of course handicap. See attached link for an example. Scroll to the forth slide on the example on this page.

    https://www.arcothall.co.uk/whs-4-course-playing-handicaps/

    Apologies, I responded to the wrong post.


  • #230
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    yawhat? wrote: »
    Are you absolutely certain about this? I haven’t seen it articulated anywhere that you round twice. I know that integer course handicaps were circulated by Golf Ireland, but I don’t see where it is specified that the integer course handicap is used before applying the playing adjustment.

    The official published rules state specifically that you do not round The course handicap before applying the playing adjustment. A number of English clubs also have examples of the calculation with no rounding of course handicap. See attached link for an example. Scroll to the forth slide on the example on this page.

    https://www.arcothall.co.uk/whs-4-course-playing-handicaps/

    Apologies, I responded to the wrong post.
    I'm not certain, but (as you acknowledge) the tables sent out only specify integer course handicaps. The instructions on the table say this:
    * When using the table, find the range containing your Handicap Index® in the left column. Play with the Course Handicap™ which corresponds with it in the right column.

    Edit: There's also this. I know it's a US site, but the page is specifically about the WHS and the salient paragraphs are as follows:
    Playing Handicap: The Course Handicap adjusted for any handicap allowances or Terms of the Competition. It represents the actual number of strokes the player gives or receives for the round being played in an event and is expressed as a whole number.

    To further clarify, in some forms of play, it is appropriate to reduce the player’s Course Handicap to a number less than 100 percent - this is called a Handicap Allowance. This percentage (85 percent, for example, for Four-Ball Stroke Play) is recommended to create equity for all players participating in a specific format of play.

    Here’s the formula for a Playing Handicap –

    Playing Handicap = Course Handicap x handicap allowance

    Example – A player with a Course Handicap of 15, has a resulting Playing Handicap of 13 when receiving 85% of his Course Handicap (with .5 or greater rounded upward – 15 x .85 = 12.75, rounded to 13).


  • #231
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭dk1982


    On the app which is now available on android play store, it only shows course handicaps for your hcap index but not your playing handicap for the course which is a bit pointless and only adds to the confusion


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  • #232
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    dk1982 wrote: »
    On the app which is now available on android play store, it only shows course handicaps for your hcap index but not your playing handicap for the course which is a bit pointless and only adds to the confusion
    It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

    This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.


  • #233
    yawhat?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭yawhat?


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I'm not certain, but (as you acknowledge) the tables sent out only specify integer course handicaps. The instructions on the table say this:



    Edit: There's also this. I know it's a US site, but the page is specifically about the WHS and the salient paragraphs are as follows:

    I would be astounded if they rounded twice.

    Take the example of a course with a slope of 113. Course handicap will equal handicap index. If you round twice, everyone with a handicap index between 9.5 and 11.4 would be off 10 playing handicap in a singles. With a slope of 123, everyone with a handicap index between 8.8 and 10.5 would be 10 in singles. That’s just not equitable.


  • #234
    Ceepo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,724 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

    This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.

    So for the purposes of entering your handicap on a score card, you enter your "course" handicap and not your playing handicap.
    Is that right?


  • #235
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,051 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    yawhat? wrote: »
    I would be astounded if they rounded twice.

    Take the example of a course with a slope of 113. Course handicap will equal handicap index. If you round twice, everyone with a handicap index between 9.5 and 11.4 would be off 10 playing handicap in a singles. With a slope of 123, everyone with a handicap index between 8.8 and 10.5 would be 10 in singles. That’s just not equitable.

    Your course handicap is a rounded integer. We have been clearly told this in no uncertain terms. It’s always been this way. Nobody has even gone out and played off 9.7. The rules clearly state that your playing handicap is a % of your course handicap.


  • #236
    dk1982
    Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭dk1982


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

    This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.

    Ah yes, understood now. Makes sense. Cheers


  • #237
    yawhat?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭yawhat?


    Seve OB wrote: »
    Your course handicap is a rounded integer. We have been clearly told this in no uncertain terms. It’s always been this way. Nobody has even gone out and played off 9.7. The rules clearly state that your playing handicap is a % of your course handicap.

    The rules don’t clearly state that anywhere I can see. Perhaps you can post a link?

    They do clearly state that rounding only occurs after playing handicap allowance is applied. See top of page 65 in document at link below. These I presume are are the official rules.

    https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf


  • #238
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    So for the purposes of entering your handicap on a score card, you enter your "course" handicap and not your playing handicap.
    Is that right?
    Exactly. Most scorecards I've seen have a box for handicap and another one for strokes received. You don't get DQ for not putting in strokes received, you do for not putting in your handicap. So look at Course Handicap as Handicap and Playing Handicap as strokes received and you won't go wrong.


  • #239
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    yawhat? wrote: »
    The rules don’t clearly state that anywhere I can see. Perhaps you can post a link?

    They do clearly state that rounding only occurs after playing handicap allowance is applied. See top of page 65 in document at link below. These I presume are are the official rules.

    https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf
    That's quite an old set of rules. Published in 2019 and supposedly effective January 2020 when in actual fact, WHS did not come into effect in CONGU countries.


  • #240
    bigeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭bigeasy


    I wonder is there another update planned for people missing scores , wrong tee’s etc


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  • #241
    yawhat?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭yawhat?


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    That's quite an old set of rules. Published in 2019 and supposedly effective January 2020 when in actual fact, WHS did not come into effect in CONGU countries.

    These rules are linked on the golfnet site.

    https://www.golfnet.ie/whs

    I’m not certain that rounding won’t apply twice, but I’m linking to why I think it won’t. Nobody can provide a link to where it says rounding should apply twice.


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