Your New WHS Index

blue note

To throw it out there - where do people stand on not submitting cards when they're playing badly? So I'm talking about the guys who are in bad form so don't declare rounds and don't submit them. For 99% of lads they're just kidding themselves keeping their handicap low but it doesn't make a difference to the rest of the club because if anything it'll cost them a shot or two in a comp. For 1% who keep their handicap low so that they get into the scratch cups and the like it's objectionable.

And if people were doing this in reverse I suspect a lot would have issues with it. As in people only putting in casual cards when they're playing badly. So they're not sandbagging the rounds, but they know they're probably going to stink out the place.

For me I think people should do it consistently. So always submit them or never do (obviously only when you're playing properly - no half bag stuff or the like).

REFLINE1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981792#Comment_120981792

Played with a lad the weekend in a Strokeplay medal comp. He was off 14 or something close to it, round fell apart on the back 9 and he hit his second ball in the bushes on the 18th, it was clearly likely lost but didn't hit a provo, just walked up had a look for a few minutes then abandoned the search and that was him done, NR on the card for his 18th. i haven't played many Strokeplay events so was a bit confused as to what he was at but it seems he just scratched the entire round and didn't hand in his card.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I might be naive in some way, but I'd have very little time for the player who only sticks in their good cards, but NRs their bad cards (and vice versa).

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981928#Comment_120981928

Well I'm thinking of the casual rounds. I'm wondering if people have a problem with guys choosing not to submit casual rounds due to their form. So they're not sandbagging the rounds, just deciding before the round based on how submitting the round is likely to affect their handicap they won't submit it. To me whether it's because the handicap will go up or down are two sides of the same problem - it's handicap manipulation. But I suspect a lot of people here would not look at it that way at all. In fact, I think many people would regard it as manipulating the handicap to submit those rounds when you're playing badly. The rounds where you're playing to you're normal standard are you're true ability, so it would be dishonest to take advantage of the poor form by using it to get shots back while you recover your form.

To me it just comes down to consistency. If you're using the casual rounds to get additional good scores in when you're playing well to get the handicap down, it is manipulation. And if you're using it to get shots back when you're playing badly it's the same. If someone only wants to submit their comp scores that's fine as long as they're playing a reasonable amount of comp rounds. If someone is playing every week by just playing the captains each year or something that's a different story.

Seve OB

If I had have put in all my bad rounds over the last few years I’d be off 20.

id also probably be lynched 🤣

slingerz

What I’ve seen is a local course with an exceptionally high rating having a very busy open day each week from visitors looking for a low handicap. I’ve seen it myself where a score on my home course replicated there is often given a 3 shot lower score differential and no PCCs involved

OEP

Not handing in cards when you're playing badly impacts PCC too - and there are a lot people on here moaning about that!

And I disagree with the comparison to causal rounds. You have to declare beforehand if a casual round is going to count - so if you do that then you should hand in your scorecard even if playing badly. Your comparison of choosing only when you're playing well to count casual rounds is the same as choosing to only enter comps when playing well - it's the player's choice either way. Whether it is casual or a comp doesn't matter.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120984508#Comment_120984508

So what about the guy who gets into the low handicap events because he's choosing to only submit rounds / play comps when he's playing well? It's within the rules I think, but I can't see how anyone would say it's within the spirit of the game.

Or the person doing the same when they're playing badly? They routinely submit their casual rounds and are going through a bad spell. Their form gets better and captains is coming up so they decide not to stop submitting casual rounds because they'd probably lose a couple of shots. No-one here is going to think that's okay.

Those two are within the rules as far as I know, but are definitely gaming the system. I'd consider both unethical.

Maybe the right thing to do is not submit your casual rounds when you're playing badly unless you're a low handicapper. Sounds a bit convoluted, but it's probably the only way no-one would object to it.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985129#Comment_120985129

I suppose as long as there's an element of choice (as in, you can choose to declare & submit your casual round on Tuesday but play a casual round on Wednesday and not submit it), there will always be a grey area around what's within the spirit of the system. Likewise I've known plenty of guys over the years who simply decided to not enter a competition because they were playing rubbish - I wouldn't really call that gaming the system but can see how it could be seen as such.

Not sure how you fix it. Honestly I think it all comes down to intent and that's something none of us will ever be able to prove. Personally I wouldn't allow casual rounds anywhere next nor near your handicap record, but that's an unpopular view in some quarters these days. My own pet gripe for years was the guy who should be off 4 or 5 but held onto a much lower handicap by never submitting his 0.1 cards and only submitting his occasional good rounds or buffer rounds. Obviously its kinda redundant under WHS as casual rounds have almost replaced "not submitting your bad competition ones" in a way.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985129#Comment_120985129

I don't think there is an onus on someone to have to have counting rounds when they're playing badly. It is within the spirit of the game to practice through bad spells. What's not in the spirit of the game is entering a comp or declaring a casual round, and then not handing in your scorecard. As you started that round with the intention of it counting towards your handicap. The definition of a casual round I am using is one where you declare beforehand that it is going to count towards your handicap. Any other golf is just practice in my opinion, which is perfectly fine and within the spirit of the game. You seem to be making a distinction between casual rounds and competition. My club has about 4 comps a week, so it's as easy to enter them as it is to play casual rounds. In fact, you're not allowed to submit a casual round if it's the same day as a comp.

benny79

You have to declare a casual round before you play as far as I know. If you declare it and dont submit it you get a penalty round/score which normally equates to 36 points. happened me by accident I created a round to see my HC on a away course I was playing with mates. Didn't add a score as I didnt intend it as a counting round. Got a penalty score which is actually 1 of my top 8 now 🙄 asked my HC sec could he remove it said he would and didnt.. 🤷

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985405#Comment_120985405

I'd view it as very similar to not submitting your card so that you avoid the .1s. If you take advantage of your form and submit a load of cards when you're playing well and then stop when you're playing badly it has the same effect. One is within the rules of the game and one is not, but in spirit to me they're similar.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985420#Comment_120985420

There's no onus in the rules, but I think there's an ethical one. Manipulating your handicap is wrong. If you're choosing to only submit the rounds when in good or bad form, you're manipulating it. In reality, barring the low guys using their handicaps to qualify for scratch cups or the elite amateur events I don't care about people doing it. I think they're kidding themselves hanging onto a 15 handicap when they are actually more of an 18 these days, but the only actual effect it has is that they'll struggle a little more in comps. But the little bit I do care says that manipulating your handicap is wrong.

Most clubs don't have 4 comps per week. The difference between comp and casual rounds from a handicap point of view is that you declare at the start of your round for casual if you're going to submit it, whereas you simply have to for a comp. So if you're playing in comps there's no question as too whether or not you should submit scores. On casual scores I think there is and in my view you should be consistent.

I didn't realise you weren't allowed to submit a round on the same day as a comp. I wonder if I've ever done it.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985623#Comment_120985623

I don't think many golfers have the luxury of knowing their form before a round though! Yes we can go through good and bad spells but it's never too consistent. So I think taking advantage of form isn't that much of a reality.

So where does practice come into it for you? Every round of golf doesn't need to be counting towards a handicap, that's unrealistic. A casual round that isn't declared is just practice - so there's no difference between a declared round and a competition. For a declared round there's also no question as to whether you should submit, you have to.

That's specific to my club. I'm not sure if it's implemented in practice, it was brought in at the very start when people were unsure how the whole general play thing would work out.

blue note

It's just about consistency for me. If you generally submit your casual rounds but you know on the day you're just not going to take your round too seriously then it's fair enough to just play it as a practice round and not submit, even if you're playing properly. If you routinely don't submit your non-comp round then they're all practice. And if you routinely don't, but just want to the odd time that's fine too. And obviously if you're taking gimmies or hitting mulligans....

And no, form is certainly no guarantee. One of the lads I play with most often doesn't often submit cards because they shoot his handicap up. He was off about 24, but should have been 30. I think he's 26 now after losing a couple of shots due to penalty scores for non-return of cards! But I'll always remember a day with him in New Forest when he was lighting the place up. Even off his artificially low handicap he was destroying me and the other lad in the group. And he was so sour when he found out he couldn't decide to submit the card when he hit about 36 points on the 14th. It was hilarious!

srfc d16

Sorry I am totally confused about the point you are trying to make here.

I might be reading this wrong but do you think people deciding one way or another whether to submit a registered score before they play a casual round are manipulating their handicap?

blue note

Specifically if they're doing it deliberately to increase or decrease their handicap. So the two obvious examples would be if someone decides to avoid submitting casual rounds or playing in comps so that they would

1. Keep a high handicap going into the Captains prize.
2. Keep a low handicap so that they qualify for elite amateur events.

I think the majority here would be fine with the second because it doesn't affect us. But I think if someone went through a bad patch for a couple of months, went up a few shots and then sorted out their game but didn't submit anything before the Captains day....... I would hazard a guess that people would regard it as disgraceful behaviour.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120987059#Comment_120987059

Forgive me if I’m taking you up wrong BN, but when you say doing it deliberately do you mean, say, “I’m playing well, but don’t want to get cut before the captains, so I won’t enter the comp” ? I’ve no issue with that at all, can’t see how anyone would tbh, as long as the decision is made before the round in question and not after they see how they played. They’re not impacting on the integrity of the competition of the day. Likewise, a low guy staying low by not playing in comps, I’ve no real issue with, it was the ones who used to decide after their round whether or not to enter that I had a problem with.

Honestly I don’t see anything wrong with a player entering, not entering, playing a casual counting round or just a practice round, because that’s all decided in advance, and let’s be honest, none of us know how we’ll play on the day. As long as a player isn’t intentionally playing poorly, missing putts etc. I don’t see an issue. The system is supposed to represent how you’re playing, so in reality, the more you play, the more accurate your handicap will be at that point in time.

in your example above, I can’t really see it happening, someone not entering a comp because the Captains is coming up and they’re afraid of getting cut. Obviously I’m not saying that never could happen, but I just don’t think it would. I mean, if someone is of that mindset, they’re already aware enough to know that not shooting a good score is the easiest thing in the world to do in golf, intentionally or not. Any bandit who can’t make 30pts look believable isn’t worthy of the name 😃!

thewobbler

I’ve captain’s prize coming up Sunday week, and I’ve two counting rounds coming out next two. The second one will get me a stroke back for the major, unless I score well.

I will find a way to get two rounds in before then. I will be going out to play well in both, and if I can’t, at least I get a small consolation prize loaded up. When i say small, an extra stroke will give me a little confidence but it won’t improve my swing.

I’d like to think that this is how the the overwhelming majority of golfers approach WHS.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120988610#Comment_120988610

The majority of golfers I think would see that if their next 2 rounds to be removed from their 20 are 'scoring' ones, they'll have 'poor' outings in the 2 casual rounds that'll remove them. Let's be real here.

It's an ugly, ugly trend I've copped in 2022 and 2023 leading up to the Captain's Prize in my club.

thewobbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120988654#Comment_120988654

I’m getting the impression that you think you’re the only sane person in a madhouse.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120988731#Comment_120988731

Just speaking facts really. I only have 2 ‘competitive’ cards in for 2023 so far, both non-scoring for my index tho. Sample size excludes me from any scrutiny I think!

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120988654#Comment_120988654

I doubt the majority of golfers are like that - especially given the majority of golfers don't enter causal rounds.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989277#Comment_120989277

Come on now. I was obviously referring to that person’s situation who is going for a casual round.

People in that situation playing a casual round would probably end up taking shots they generally wouldn’t take on, take less time over putts and generally just arse about knowing ‘ah sure at least the handicap will go up’

Can’t blank deny it

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989277#Comment_120989277

Yeah I agree with this. There's no way its a majority. There might be a few bad eggs, but from what I've seen the majority don't even know what a score dropping out means or really how the whole thing works.

For instance I know that 6 of my next 8 rounds are counting rounds from April/May that will be dropping out. Unless I pull my socks up and string a few shots together I'll be going up in handicap. For me, its motivation to try eek out a good score somehow, despite a month or two of very average play. No way on earth I'd submit casual rounds to clear them out, mostly because I disagree with casual rounds being allowed in principle anyway.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989599#Comment_120989599

Apologies - I agree, if you're "squeezing in" two causal rounds because you have scores dropping out before a big comp then I'd question those rounds. You might not deliberately shoot a bad score but you're also not playing wholeheartedly to shoot your best score either.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989735#Comment_120989735

Again, I'm not saying you'd purposefully submit a casual round.

I'm just saying for the original person I quoted who is inputting a couple of casual rounds, that's the situation too many people can take advantage of, with the senitiment I posted previously - Taking on shots they'd never usually take on perhaps. Not taking time over putts. Just arseing about in general with the mentality that 'worst case scenario' their HC goes up

thewobbler

Callaway, they’ll both be competitive rounds. I’ve submitted 2 casual rounds in 3 years. That doesn’t float my boat.

And I’ll be going out to score well too.

But you know what I don’t understand in your protests here?

if I’m playing golf, and after a slow start and a couple of scratches - does it really matter whether that round is in a club competition or casual? Of course I’m going to spend a few holes trying things I normally wouldn’t in the pursuit of three pointers. And of course I’m going to lose a little concentration if that doesn’t happen. Even if I’m officially entered into a competition, I’m not actually competing at that point.

You do protest too much. If you’re finding that everyone else is dishonest but you, then you’re probably asking the wrong question.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990014#Comment_120990014

Ahh no, I get that alright and I get it could look bad in certain situations where someone appears to submit two casual rounds to get rid of two green ones. But, its still only a look, the guy could have decided he didn't want an increase and was trying to do a good score to replace the counting round dropping out - we'd never really know and most of the time when we "try" to play well, we don't. Its an honest question rather than purposefully playing devil's advocate, but where is the line between your best efforts and something other than that ? Like, as you say, taking on a shot you'd maybe not normally take on, or trying something different like a new putting routine or something ? We'll never improve if we don't reach for something. I know, for me, there are shots on my course that I'd possibly take on in a stableford comp but definitely wouldn't in a strokeplay one. Similarly, the best putter I've ever known, doesn't really line up his putts at all, a quick glance and away he goes. It even got to the point one time in a Barton Cup final where his partner felt he wasn't taking enough care and they had a row (quietly), and he told the guy to leave him alone on the greens and proceeded to hole a 20 footer on 16th to go one up. Someone who didn't know him could easily think he doesn't give a sh1te. Different folks and all that.

I dunno, I mean, for any of us, in a comp or not, the worst case is our handicap might go up. Some people play better when just ar$ing about, some people play worse when there's no comp on the line. I think it would take an awful lot of planning to ensure that you had a few counting scores dropping out just before the Captains tbh.

Fann Linn

‘Some people play better when just ar$ing about, ..,’

Played the 18th tonight in our place in the dark. Fine drive, on green in regulation and walked off with a birdie. Couldn’t believe it.

Walked off on Sunday last with an 8 at 13.50 in the middle of the day.

Simple auld game this golf!

prawnsambo

Failing to submit a score after registering an intent to submit one will result in a penalty score being applied if the intent has been registered using the Golf Ireland app. https://static.clubhouse.golfireland.ie/clubs/1000/uploads/files/play_golf/automatic%20penalty%20score%20process.pdf

Clubs also have the option to take action against players who consistently fail to return scores in club competitions. Here are the actions Kinsale GC take against repeat offenders. This is not an outlier, I've seen similar in other golf clubs.

Finally, A DQ in a strokeplay competition for not completing a hole does not invalidate the score for handicap purposes. So even if you do pick up on one or two holes, the card must still be submitted.