2020 All Ireland Senior Football Championship MOD NOTE POST #1

tobefrank321

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So just like Tipp this year?

Yes exactly although they also beat an off form Galway team in 2016. Its much rarer these days.

The AI is a mess these days but then again it was always unbalanced.

Every so often you'd have a small county reach a semi final, the supporters go nuts, big day in Croker, the dream of every boy to play in croker nonsense, only for them to be beaten by 15 to 20 points.

There's no value in that for anyone.

ThunbergsAreGo

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Yes exactly although they also beat an off form Galway team in 2016. Its much rarer these days.

The AI is a mess these days but then again it was always unbalanced.

Every so often you'd have a small county reach a semi final, the supporters go nuts, big day in Croker, the dream of every boy to play in croker nondense, only for them to be beaten by 15 to 20 points.

There's no value in that for anyone.

Totally agree, the backdoor has lessened the likelihood of an unusual semi finalists.

There is likely a big decision coming up for the GAA, is the plan to have an American style anyone can win system, or a Premier Leafue type top 4 only?

awaywithyou

blowitupref wrote: »

Seen this tweeted by Journalist John Fogarty yesterday.

Dublins average winning margin on route to their last 8 AI finals.

2011 - 3.9 points
2013 - 10.2 points
2015 - 13.2 points
2016 - 8.6 points
2017 - 14.8 points
2018 - 13 points
2019 - 14.8 points
2020 - 17.5 points

Average winning margin in their last 7 finals 2.1 points.

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I know plenty are talking down Mayo chances thinking they will defend as loosely as yesterday but i think Mayo will be a lot more focused defensively for this match and one shouldn't be surprised if Dublin win another AI final by a narrow margin.

But Dublin will win.. Mayo will put up a good show... thge usual... but thew dubs will never look like losing and will either do enuf to win or bury mayo like they did last year

TCDStudent1

awaywithyou wrote: »

But Dublin will win.. Mayo will put up a good show... thge usual... but thew dubs will never look like losing and will either do enuf to win or bury mayo like they did last year

Its a very different Mayo team this year.

Masteryos

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Totally agree, the backdoor has lessened the likelihood of an unusual semi finalists.

There is likely a big decision coming up for the GAA, is the plan to have an American style anyone can win system, or a Premier Leafue type top 4 only?

Unfortunately a premier league style would work more than anything else. A top 4 or 5 or Dublin, Kerry, Mayo Donegal and Tyrone would at least ensure more competitive games near the end of the All Ireland vs an American style system were trying to balance it in football might not work.

American sports works partially because of the draft, giving weaker teams a chance to grab the up and coming players to build a successful team with. I don't see lads from Kerry or Dublin playing for Sligo under that system. Unless you mean something else.

I think we need to acknowledge, a bit like in hurling that there is a clear gaps in teams skill and create a series based around that. Having a tiered format at least means that games should be more closer and could help raise he standards.

People will look at Tipp and Caven this year as to why a system shouldn't exist for their Ulster and Munster wins but the Semi finals really showed that the overall gap in skill is still there and teams like that tank out after their successful runs in the provisional series.

dunnerc

HBC08 wrote: »

Just saw Gilroy on the Sunday Game.
If you are trying to defend the indefensible it helps if you are smart,articulate and likeable,he is none of these.

In your opinion
I believe he is all of the above and more .

kippy

dunnerc wrote: »

In your opinion
I believe he is all of the above and more .

He didn't come across well at all. (Neither contributor did to be fair)

Personal highlight for me was his attempt to equate racism with not letting a person born/living in Leitrim play for a county other than Leitrim.....
One of many daft things he said.

dunnerc

kippy wrote: »

He didn't come across well at all. (Neither contributor did to be fair)

Personal highlight for me was his attempt to equate racism with not letting a person born/living in Leitrim play for a county other than Leitrim.....
One of many daft things he said.

Sure its all about opinions !

kippy

dunnerc wrote: »

Sure its all about opinions !

This came to mind.

Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt!

TCDStudent1

Masteryos wrote: »

Unfortunately a premier league style would work more than anything else. A top 4 or 5 or Dublin, Kerry, Mayo Donegal and Tyrone would at least ensure more competitive games near the end of the All Ireland vs an American style system were trying to balance it in football might not work.

American sports works partially because of the draft, giving weaker teams a chance to grab the up and coming players to build a successful team with. I don't see lads from Kerry or Dublin playing for Sligo under that system. Unless you mean something else.

I think we need to acknowledge, a bit like in hurling that there is a clear gaps in teams skill and create a series based around that. Having a tiered format at least means that games should be more closer and could help raise he standards.

People will look at Tipp and Caven this year as to why a system shouldn't exist for their Ulster and Munster wins but the Semi finals really showed that the overall gap in skill is still there and teams like that tank out after their successful runs in the provisional series.

Declan Darcy kinda did that in the 90's.

tobefrank321

kippy wrote: »

He didn't come across well at all. (Neither contributor did to be fair)

Personal highlight for me was his attempt to equate racism with not letting a person born/living in Leitrim play for a county other than Leitrim.....
One of many daft things he said.

Yeh it was just a surreal piece of broadcasting. McEntee was like a rabbit in headlights, no preparation, shouted down and couldn't get a word in.

Daft things from Gilroy- grandparent rule, Dublin needs even more funding, combine Cork and Kerry, cavan and monaghan because they are so close, Dubs volunteer harder, etc.

How can a former inter county manager know so little about gaelic football? It was like a post 10 pints barstool rant.

bucketybuck

Masteryos wrote: »

A top 4 or 5 or Dublin, Kerry, Mayo Donegal and Tyrone would at least ensure more competitive games near the end of the All Ireland vs an American style system were trying to balance it in football might not work.

There is a huge assumption there, that the likes of Donegal, Tyrone and Mayo will continue to operate at a level that can least can be considered opposition for Dublin.

And I don't see that as a given at all. Unlike Dublin some of those counties absolutely will be subject to the vagaries of the talent pool, where a golden period can be followed by a dearth of talent for a few years. Think Cork, Armagh, Down and Derry, previous division one sides now going through barren years.

Structure a championship around a select few sides and you would want to be damn sure those sides can actually continue to compete, and that is very far from a given.

Its rather fundamental to the Dublin problem in fact. The population and structure there gives them a conveyor belt of consistent quality around which to build squads, so they will always compete. No other county can say that with such certainty.

Always_Running

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Its a very different Mayo team this year.

Changes from last year's match If both start with the teams that started in the semi finals

Dublin

Out - Jack Mccaffrey, Michael Darragh Macauley, Brian Howard, Paul Mannion

In - Eoin Murchan, Seán Bugler; Paddy Small, Robert McDaid

Mayo

Out - Rob Hennelly, Brendan Harrison, Colm Boyle, Séamus Ó Shea, Fionn McDonagh, Donal Vaughan, James Carr

In - David Clarke, Oisín Mullin, Eoghan McLaughlin, Conor Loftus, Kevin McLoughlin, Ryan O'Donoghue, Tommy Conroy

lawrencesummers

What good is it splitting Dublin in two if the all Ireland final is contested every year between the two Dublin teams?

lawrencesummers

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What good is it splitting Dublin in two if the all Ireland final is contested every year between the two Dublin teams?

Hardly would be when the current team gets it tight to beat the 2 and 3 team in country currently.

lawrencesummers

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Hardly would be when the current team gets it tight to beat the 2 and 3 team in country currently.

They can only field 15 players at a time. Nothing to say the second 15 wouldn’t be extremely competitive.

lawrencesummers

lawrencesummers wrote: »

They can only field 15 players at a time. Nothing to say the second 15 wouldn’t be extremely competitive.

There's a lot more to suggest that than there is to suggest they'd contest the all Ireland final between them every year.

bucketybuck

There is an incredibly easy way to guage if a second Dublin team would be competitive.

Would a team with a forward line of Paul Mannion, Brian Howard, Kevin McMenaman, Cormac Costello, Colm Basquel and Conor McHugh be successfull?

dunnerc

bucketybuck wrote: »

There is an incredibly easy way to guage if a second Dublin team would be competitive.

Would a team with a forward line of Paul Mannion, Brian Howard, Kevin McMenaman, Cormac Costello, Colm Basquel and Conor McHugh be successfull?

Quite possibly if it had a good defense and midfield as well

ThunbergsAreGo

bucketybuck wrote: »

There is an incredibly easy way to guage if a second Dublin team would be competitive.

Would a team with a forward line of Paul Mannion, Brian Howard, Kevin McMenaman, Cormac Costello, Colm Basquel and Conor McHugh be successfull?

What way are you splitting Dublin

eastie17

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Yeh it was just a surreal piece of broadcasting. McEntee was like a rabbit in headlights, no preparation, shouted down and couldn't get a word in.

Daft things from Gilroy- grandparent rule, Dublin needs even more funding, combine Cork and Kerry, cavan and monaghan because they are so close, Dubs volunteer harder, etc.

How can a former inter county manager know so little about gaelic football? It was like a post 10 pints barstool rant.

Unfortunately its what we have come to expect from our national broadcaster, how Des Cahill is still in that gig is beyond me, did you see the bit where someone must have been in his ear telling him to go back and check if he really did just say that Dublin had offered to help other Leinster counties and they turned it down? A broadcaster with half a brain would have picked up on that as soon as he said it, not 3 minutes later after the lad in the control booth tells him to

flasher0030

bucketybuck wrote: »

There is an incredibly easy way to guage if a second Dublin team would be competitive.

Would a team with a forward line of Paul Mannion, Brian Howard, Kevin McMenaman, Cormac Costello, Colm Basquel and Conor McHugh be successfull?

You can't just simplify it like that. If you take those out of the first team, then the whole notion of the impact subs is gone - thereby weakening the first team considerably. I know it's theoretical, but if say Fenton and O'Callaghan got injured, their replacements would result in the team being brought somewhat back to the chasing pack.
This is also likely to be Cluxton's last year (hopefully!" from a Mayo man's perspective, and I mean that with the utmost of respect for Stephen Cluxton). So more than likely Comerford takes that role going forward. The next in line keeper, whoever it is, is not exactly going to put the fear of God into any opposition.

timmyntc

Talk of splitting/amalgamations is stupid - you cant punish a team's success by splitting them.
Nor can you punish a team's lack thereof by amalgamating them with another county.

The issue is finances - GAA HQ should not be giving Dublin, a much denser county, (with a much bigger pool of players and a much bigger capacity to raise money themselves through sponsorships etc) far more money than other counties.

Most other counties have quite large transport and accommodation costs (on matchdays), & generally facilities will be worse.
Add to that the fact that Dublin clubs will have a kind of economy of scale advantage when it comes to employing GDOs/Physios/Coaches, not only are the clubs closer together (relative to country clubs), but the higher memberships per club mean they can afford more.


Once the finances are fairly distributed from GAA HQ, then there is no issue. If Dublin continue to dominate, it is at their own merit.
What that means for the game as a whole is a different story - but at least HQ won't be favouring one county's success over others.

bucketybuck

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What way are you splitting Dublin

Along its bench.

flasher0030 wrote: »

You can't just simplify it like that. If you take those out of the first team, then the whole notion of the impact subs is gone - thereby weakening the first team considerably.

Sure its simplified, it was a simple question that didn't need to be complicated.

Dublins bench/2nd team has multiple all stars in their prime, and I could actually make a case that those 6 players would be the 2nd best forward line in the entire country, its certainly better than all but a very few other counties.

And there are plenty of others I could have named. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to suggest that a Dublin 2nd 15 would be one of the very best teams in the country.

ThunbergsAreGo

timmyntc wrote: »

Talk of splitting/amalgamations is stupid - you cant punish a team's success by splitting them.
Nor can you punish a team's lack thereof by amalgamating them with another county.

The issue is finances - GAA HQ should not be giving Dublin, a much denser county, (with a much bigger pool of players and a much bigger capacity to raise money themselves through sponsorships etc) far more money than other counties.

Most other counties have quite large transport and accommodation costs (on matchdays), & generally facilities will be worse.
Add to that the fact that Dublin clubs will have a kind of economy of scale advantage when it comes to employing GDOs/Physios/Coaches, not only are the clubs closer together (relative to country clubs), but the higher memberships per club mean they can afford more.


Once the finances are fairly distributed from GAA HQ, then there is no issue. If Dublin continue to dominate, it is at their own merit.
What that means for the game as a whole is a different story - but at least HQ won't be favouring one county's success over others.

I do understand what you mean by the finances I really do, its an argument I understand but you have just said yourself Dublin is a much denser county with many more people in it.

Now what is the goal of the GAA to encourage participation, or to have a competitive Senior Championship ? I would argue that participation of the many is more important, and that may well be shared by the GAA

It is a very very difficult question to answer - the word "fair" above could be interpreted in so many different ways, and I have no idea what the right answer is.

elefant

timmyntc wrote: »

Once the finances are fairly distributed from GAA HQ, then there is no issue. If Dublin continue to dominate, it is at their own merit.
What that means for the game as a whole is a different story - but at least HQ won't be favouring one county's success over others.

I was about the disagree with you when I saw this phrase being used, but you're spot on with your point. There are some things the GAA can't control but they urgently need to get hold of the things that they can, however small an impact that will make at this stage.

lawrencesummers

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What way are you splitting Dublin

Atomic bomb?

timmyntc

elefant wrote: »

I was about the disagree with you when I saw this phrase being used, but you're spot on with your point. There are some things the GAA can't control but they urgently need to get hold of the things that they can, however small an impact that will make at this stage.

Exactly - the only 'fair' thing the GAA can do is distribute its funding better.
More funding to those who need it, rather than a proportional split per club member - Dublin clubs would have a better fundraising ability than more rural clubs, so GAA need to take that into account before distributing central funding.

If the goal is parity at senior inter-county level, then it will devolve into a farce of constantly splitting & amalgamating counties so that everyone gets a win at some stage. The reality is, not every county team will be competing for an All-Ireland. The GAA should do what they can to improve the standard in those counties & clubs, but you can't go drawing up new boundaries based on past performance. If anything it's a disincentive to win, because you risk your county getting split up.

bucketybuck

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Now what is the goal of the GAA to encourage participation, or to have a competitive Senior Championship ? I would argue that participation of the many is more important, and that may well be shared by the GAA

Go down that road and you come to the conclusion that the GAA's efforts should be targeted on the clubs, and not the intercounty scene.

Which would be a better idea than shuffling the deckchairs on a format that is inherently broken.

ThunbergsAreGo

bucketybuck wrote: »

Go down that road and you come to the conclusion that the GAA's efforts should be targeted on the clubs, and not the intercounty scene.

Which would be a better idea than shuffling the deckchairs on a format that is inherently broken.

Tend to agree with you, when you go down the rabbit hole of fairness and evenness - doing away with intercounty seem the most logical conclusion.

Intercounty should be the icing on top, not the cake