2020 All Ireland Senior Football Championship MOD NOTE POST #1

Coybig_

robbiezero wrote: »

While the knockout element of the football championship has made it very exciting and results like the Cork one v Kerry have been brilliant, I'd still prefer to have the back door or super-eights.
We are at provincial final stage in 3 of the provinces now and when the championship should be coming to a crescendo, it really looks like that with 2 of the top 4 gone already, there is probably only 1 big clash of significance in terms of winning the All-Ireland remaining.

Compare to the hurling championship where you have the top 6 teams in the country left in the championship and 5 mouth-watering games to come.

That doesnt quite work in the football where you have teams lining up for their annual humiliation at the hands of Dublin. In hurling most of the teams have a chance against the others on a given day. That is not the case in football. It is anti competitive.

We certainly dont need a Super 8 league format for Dublin to be getting more games to dole out hammerings, or for dead rubbers like Cork v Roscommon last year.

Furthermore a team can lose twice and still win an All Ireland. That is not compatible to hurling either.

BonnieSituation

robbiezero wrote: »

While the knockout element of the football championship has made it very exciting and results like the Cork one v Kerry have been brilliant, I'd still prefer to have the back door or super-eights.
We are at provincial final stage in 3 of the provinces now and when the championship should be coming to a crescendo, it really looks like that with 2 of the top 4 gone already, there is probably only 1 big clash of significance in terms of winning the All-Ireland remaining.

Compare to the hurling championship where you have the top 6 teams in the country left in the championship and 5 mouth-watering games to come.

Would you stop!

What round is hurling at now? Preliminary semi final round 2?

When's the group stage final qualifier round robin starting?

robbiezero

Coybig_ wrote: »

That doesnt quite work in the football where you have teams lining up for their annual humiliation at the hands of Dublin. In hurling most of the teams have a chance against the others on a given day. That is not the case in football. It is anti competitive.

We certainly dont need a Super 8 league format for Dublin to be getting more games to dole out hammerings, or for dead rubbers like Cork v Roscommon last year.

Furthermore a team can lose twice and still win an All Ireland. That is not compatible to hurling either.

If Dublin beat Donegal in that semi-final, they will likely win the All-Ireland this year with playing only 1 team from next years Division 1.

Not their fault and I think they are that good, that they would still win it if they had to play all the other teams in Div 1 to win the All-Ireland.
If it was to go back to straight knock-out, it needs to be an open draw. Its a really unfair system that sees Tyrone exit the championship in the first round while Dublin can piss about beating cannon fodder.

breezy1985

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Would you stop!

What round is hurling at now? Preliminary semi final round 2?

When's the group stage final qualifier round robin starting?

The hurling championship is actually pretty simple and the best way to do a championship is group first then knockout now whether it's provincial or not that's how it needs to go for football too

robbiezero

breezy1985 wrote: »

The hurling championship is actually pretty simple and the best way to do a championship is group first then knockout now whether it's provincial or not that's how it needs to go

Agreed. For me, what you want in a championship is to have the best teams in the country in the mix at the tail end of it, which we are definitely getting in the hurling.
There are few enough teams at the top table in the football to have 1 of the top 4 gone after the first round.

robbiezero

dobman88 wrote: »

As a Kerry man, I'm obviously gutted they're gone but I think it makes a case for the return to knockout. That win for Cork actually meant something. I saw a comment elsewhere, not only did they beat Kerry, they knocked them out of the championship. That's massive when you think about it. We have seen back doors let a team build up a bit of momentum and come back to haunt a team later in the year. For me, the football is more exciting this year because of it whereas last year, a loss even in the poxy super 8s didnt spell disaster.

All that, along with the main point is that it frees up loads of time for the club game instead of a long drawn out county season which will be far more positive in the long run imo.

Ya, that is certainly a good point and worth considering. Its only a hollow victory to win it and have the other team go farther in the championship, which happens all the time in the hurling.

BonnieSituation

breezy1985 wrote: »

The hurling championship is actually pretty simple and the best way to do a championship is group first then knockout now whether it's provincial or not that's how it needs to go for football too

I never thought it was difficult. I just think it's daft. Hurling is petrified of declaring a loser. It's pathetic.

In a time when we had to reduce games in all codes due to covid, hurling organisers couldn't help having a few loser medal games added in.

BonnieSituation

robbiezero wrote: »

Agreed. For me, what you want in a championship is to have the best teams in the country in the mix at the tail end of it, which we are definitely getting in the hurling.
There are few enough teams at the top table in the football to have 1 of the top 4 gone after the first round.

The best teams is subjective though.

Kerry have no right to be at the tail end of the championship after losing to Cork. Same as Laois, Kildare and Tyrone etc.

This is how knock-out championships should be.

breezy1985

robbiezero wrote: »

Agreed. For me, what you want in a championship is to have the best teams in the country in the mix at the tail end of it, which we are definitely getting in the hurling.
There are few enough teams at the top table in the football to have 1 of the top 4 gone after the first round.

The fallacy with the football championship is that because you have 32 teams competing that you have more competitive teams than hurling with its 10 teams. But 8 of those 10 teams could win the All Ireland and in reality only about 8 football teams could really win Sam right now if someone could take Dublin out

BonnieSituation

breezy1985 wrote: »

The fallacy with the football championship is that because you have 32 teams competing that you have more competitive teams than hurling with its 10 teams. But 8 of those 10 teams could win the All Ireland and in reality only about 8 football teams could really win Sam right now if someone could take Dublin out

You're the only one calling it a fallacy.

I mean, wasn't to be a two-tier championship but for covid?

I get that you need to defend hurling's obtuse format but a bit of perspective would be nice.

robbiezero

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The best teams is subjective though.

Kerry have no right to be at the tail end of the championship after losing to Cork. Same as Laois, Kildare and Tyrone etc.

This is how knock-out championships should be.

Fully agree on Kerry. They have no one to blame but themselves. Theirs should have been a very straightforward route to an AI and I think in their minds they were there already. No sympathy for them.

I do think its harsh on Tyrone though. They get an unfair draw by dint of geography.

BonnieSituation

robbiezero wrote: »

Fully agree on Kerry. They have no one to blame but themselves. Theirs should have been a very straightforward route to an AI and I think in their minds they were there already. No sympathy for them.

I do think its harsh on Tyrone though. They get an unfair draw by dint of geography.

It's almost as if the provincial championships are an archaic slice of nonsense.

robbiezero

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's almost as if the provincial championships are an archaic slice of nonsense.

Agreed.

dobman88

robbiezero wrote: »

Agreed. For me, what you want in a championship is to have the best teams in the country in the mix at the tail end of it, which we are definitely getting in the hurling.
There are few enough teams at the top table in the football to have 1 of the top 4 gone after the first round.

I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 championships this year or any year tbf as the rules differ so much. And you have a tiered hurling system so the best teams will always play each other. Also this is the football thread and I've no interest in hurling really, I even fast forward the hurling on the Sunday game so I'll bow out of that discussion.

Wrt the football, no team has a God given right to progress. Kerry couldn't beat Cork, g'luck. Same for Tyrone against Donegal, bye bye. Roscommon and Galway gone, they're the breaks. On the flip side of that, Cork and Tipp now have a serious chance to win a Munster football title and progress to an All Ireland semi final. Cavan are on a mighty run and have an Ulster final to look forward to in reward for their hard work. Mayo won Connacht for the first time in what? 4 or 5 years. Meath against Kildare mattered yesterday and turned into a good game because of the knock out effect.

I think overall knock out has been positive. Its not Dublins fault they're so far ahead of the rest, in Leinster at least. But it's better to have Kerry and Tyrone gone instead of them possibly coming back to knock out Cork or Cavan later on which is possible in other years

BonnieSituation

dobman88 wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 championships this year or any year tbf as the rules differ so much. And you have a tiered hurling system so the best teams will always play each other. Also this is the football thread and I've no interest in hurling really, I even fast forward the hurling on the Sunday game so I'll bow out of that discussion.

Wrt the football, no team has a God given right to progress. Kerry couldn't beat Cork, g'luck. Same for Tyrone against Donegal, bye bye. Roscommon and Galway gone, they're the breaks. On the flip side of that, Cork and Tipp now have a serious chance to win a Munster football title and progress to an All Ireland semi final. Cavan are on a mighty run and have an Ulster final to look forward to in reward for their hard work. Mayo won Connacht for the first time in what? 4 or 5 years. Meath against Kildare mattered yesterday and turned into a good game because of the knock out effect.

I think overall knock out has been positive. Its not Dublins fault they're so far ahead of the rest, in Leinster at least. But it's better to have Kerry and Tyrone gone instead of them possibly coming back to knock out Cork or Cavan later on which is possible in other years

This.

Coybig_

robbiezero wrote: »

If Dublin beat Donegal in that semi-final, they will likely win the All-Ireland this year with playing only 1 team from next years Division 1.

Not their fault and I think they are that good, that they would still win it if they had to play all the other teams in Div 1 to win the All-Ireland.
If it was to go back to straight knock-out, it needs to be an open draw. Its a really unfair system that sees Tyrone exit the championship in the first round while Dublin can piss about beating cannon fodder.

They routinely swat away Division 1 teams with ease. Mayo were division 1 last year and league champions, Dublin beat them by 10. Roscommon were in Divison 1 last year, Dublin beat them by 18! Meath were promoted from Division 2 to Division 1 last year, Dublin beat them by 16. It does not matter who they play. They are so far above everybody else that it makes no difference. Giving them more division 1 teams to play means more teams for them to humiliate.

Better the 1 percent chance that somebody beats them in straight knockout than giving them a chance to be beaten twice and still qualify for an all ireland final.

Football will not be fixed by adding more games for Dublin to win. It will not be fixed by adding more games in which the rest squabble over who gets to be hammered by Dublin in an All Ireland Semi Final and Final.

The imbalance needs to be looked at seriously for the good of football.

In hurling, with just 12 teams to pick from we have had 4 of them win an All Ireland in the past five years and 1 more contest an All Ireland final and lose. Beyond them, the likes of Cork a puck away from All Ireland final in 2018 and close too in 2017. Wexford almost made an All Ireland final in 2019.

That type of competitiveness has been lacking from football for a very, very long time and the gap does not seem to be closing. The GAA seem to want to cover their eyes and ears about this imbalance so at least the pure knockout adds some emotion to the whole process rather than the typical inevitability of the whole thing.

Bonniedog

I don't agree that hurling championship is a better arrangement. Watching games so far you can easily tell where teams know they still have another shot, and maybe even an easier one. Waterford put it up to Limerick yesterday, but they had accepted their fate knowing they'd be out again at the weekend in last 6/7 minutes.

Fr Tod Umptious

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's almost as if the provincial championships are an archaic slice of nonsense.

And that my friend is the crux of it all.
A sports league wedded to pre Norman monarchial geography has no place in the 21st century.

dinjo99

Is there any logic in staging the potential semi final between Dublin and Donegal in Croke Park this year?

The usual argument of facilitating the large crowd is not valid this year. Why not play it in Clones? If one team is to have home advantage, why not play it in Ballybofey?

Dublin would probably still be favourites but I think if they had to play Donegal in Ballybofey it would make things much more interesting!

I realise that it is nor Dublin's fault that they have had home advantage for a huge majority of their five in a row matches but I don't see the logic of giving it to them again this year when the match will be played in an empty stadium.

thelad95

dinjo99 wrote: »

Is there any logic in staging the potential semi final between Dublin and Donegal in Croke Park this year?

The usual argument of facilitating the large crowd is not valid this year. Why not play it in Clones? If one team is to have home advantage, why not play it in Ballybofey?

Dublin would probably still be favourites but I think if they had to play Donegal in Ballybofey it would make things much more interesting!

I realise that it is nor Dublin's fault that they have had home advantage for a huge majority of their five in a row matches but I don't see the logic of giving it to them again this year when the match will be played in an empty stadium.

Clones in December would be a swamp. Teams who make it to the All Ireland series deserve to play in Croke Park, one of the finest sporting facilities in Europe, not a swamp in the pissing rain in a small town in Monaghan, just to take away a supposed home field advantage in what will be an empty stadium anyway.

By the way, Dublin would still win comfortably if the game was played on a club field in Leitrim for what it matters.

crossman47

dinjo99 wrote: »

Is there any logic in staging the potential semi final between Dublin and Donegal in Croke Park this year?

The usual argument of facilitating the large crowd is not valid this year. Why not play it in Clones? If one team is to have home advantage, why not play it in Ballybofey?

Dublin would probably still be favourites but I think if they had to play Donegal in Ballybofey it would make things much more interesting!

I realise that it is nor Dublin's fault that they have had home advantage for a huge majority of their five in a row matches but I don't see the logic of giving it to them again this year when the match will be played in an empty stadium.

I agree. Anywhere other than Croke Park so Dubs don't get their usual advantage.

BonnieSituation

crossman47 wrote: »

I agree. Anywhere other than Croke Park so Dubs don't get their usual advantage.

I'd play it on Tory if it shut these stupid conversations down.

dobman88

I saw a tweet saying similar that the GAA should use this season to bring the semi finals out of croke park. Of all the years to do it, this isnt it. We've seen the state of provincial grounds over the last few weeks on telly. The players deserve better than that and Croke Park is kept by full time groundsmen all year round so its a no brainer to have the semis there in a winter championship on what is undoubtedly the best surface in the country. If it was summer, I could see the argument but I still think semis should be played in HQ. The super 8s provide teams with a home game and reward for a semi final should always be croke park.

Also I think the whole, take Dublin out of croker, home advantage blah blah blah is such a lazy argument. They've played and not lost in numerous venues around the country recently.

BonnieSituation

Don't be coming in here with your so-called "facts".

breezy1985

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're the only one calling it a fallacy.

I mean, wasn't to be a two-tier championship but for covid?

I get that you need to defend hurling's obtuse format but a bit of perspective would be nice.

It wasn't a two tier championship it was a one tier with a stupid losers group that was tried and failed before and how many teams do you think can win Sam seeing as you think I'm wrong

Also what losers medals are being handed out in hurling?
The hurling championship could afford a back door in the timeframe given where as the football is too big one isn't right or wrong it's just logistics

jmayo

Rolo2010 wrote: »

Your team won by committing a cynical foul.

About time we got cynical like everyone else.

dinjo99 wrote: »

Is there any logic in staging the potential semi final between Dublin and Donegal in Croke Park this year?

The usual argument of facilitating the large crowd is not valid this year. Why not play it in Clones? If one team is to have home advantage, why not play it in Ballybofey?

Dublin would probably still be favourites but I think if they had to play Donegal in Ballybofey it would make things much more interesting!

I realise that it is nor Dublin's fault that they have had home advantage for a huge majority of their five in a row matches but I don't see the logic of giving it to them again this year when the match will be played in an empty stadium.

Just thinking of fact that Dublin have another advantage this year with covid.
For most of the teams left and looking at the most likely candidates for semis, the players will have to travel the length or breath of the country to play in Dublin.

How do all the players now travel to their away matches ?

I know HQ told teams a while back to park the buses (hits some counties with nice buses more than others ) and travel as individuals.

So why should players from the likes of Mayo, Cork, Donegal have to travel the whole way to Dublin when the Dublin players can roll out of bed and be at the ground in half an hour or so ?

I can see the arguments being made for Croker on pitch, Hawkeye, camera positions and press facilities.

But do we really need Hawkeye when teams have being playing without throughout the year.
And camera placement can be pretty ok elsewhere and well screw the press.

So really it is down to pitch.

So how good is the pitch going to be in December in comparison to everywhere else ?

dobman88

jmayo wrote: »

So really it is down to pitch.

So how good is the pitch going to be in December in comparison to everywhere else ?

Infinitely better and it's not even debatable

billyhead

What about PUC for the semis to shut up those who think Croker gives the Dubs an unfair advantage. The pitch down their would hold up well in December.

ArnoldJRimmer

billyhead wrote: »

What about PUC for the semis to shut up those who think Croker gives the Dubs an unfair advantage. The pitch down their would hold up well in December.

The Dubs fans need to stop being so sensitive about people pointing out this advantage. They've had two away games in the championship in around 25 years, and had two home games in the Super 8's two years ago. Whether it makes a difference with the Dublin right now is neither here nor there, its just about fairness.

If Donegal make it out of Ulster this year or any year, I have no issues with playing the All Ireland semi final in Croker, or an away game against the Dubs in the Super 8s, assuming that each team have one home, one away and one neutral game.

And I don't think Croker should even be a topic of discussion this year, if the Ulster Final was moved to Croker, and it was deemed safe for players to travel, I'd prefer it than having to play in the Athletic Grounds, as the pitch is in much better condition

ShamoBuc

The pitch in Cork is absolutely fantastic. Everyone who has played on it recently, even in monsoon conditions, has nothing but praise for it.