Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

As said to you last night,a persons right to their good name isnt so brittle that someone who actually isnt au fait with the status of a document can have it removed simply by that someone claiming it was still subject to the official secrets act

The veracity has to be established first
No official secret,No crime
As the document already left the cabinet and was being circulated among private citizens,I expect thats that
No amount of wishfull thinking will change it
Gardaí have to investigate every complaint reported to them,however frivolous

his 'good name' in respect of what happened here is gone when he confessed to wrongdoing after being exposed in the media.

And no, I am not interested in your take of he law, that's in the Gardai's hands now.

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

So guilty untill proven innocent,I see
Have you moved to North Korea?

Clutching at straws now Nobotty.

The complainants claims of guilt and Leo's claims of innocence will be ignored in a dispassionate inquiry into what happened. That's what happens when you are investigated or supposed to anyhow.

McMurphy

Nobotty wrote: »

As said to you last night,a persons right to their good name isnt so brittle that someone who actually isnt au fait with the status of a document can have it removed simply by that someone claiming it was still subject to the official secrets act

The veracity has to be established first
No official secret,No crime
As the document already left the cabinet and was being circulated among private citizens,I expect thats that
No amount of wishfull thinking will change it
Gardaí have to investigate every complaint reported to them,however frivolous

Just to echo Francie here, his good name, certainly with regards passing confidential information to his pal is absolutely no longer a question.

Unless I was imagining him admitting, and apologising for doing so?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sigh>
The gardai are investigating if a crime has been committed i.e. a criminal investigation - which may or may not find evidence of criminality on two counts and which may or may not lead to the Tanaiste going to jail.
All true - all factual.

Investigating if a crime has been committed is NOT a criminal investigation, it is routine preliminary enquiries.

blanch152

IngazZagni wrote: »

Incorrect. It's a preliminary investigation. If the Gardai feel there could be a crime committed then it will proceed to a formal criminal investigation.

Some posters clearly do not understand the difference.

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

his 'good name' in respect of what happened here is gone when he confessed to wrongdoing after being exposed in the media.

And no, I am not interested in your take of he law, that's in the Gardai's hands now.

He may have no name for not leaking stuff but you know thats not what Im talking about
Im thinking at this stage theres an episode of Louis Theroux to be made in these threads
Ler me know when its on and I'll record it

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

He may have no name for not leaking stuff but you know thats not what Im talking about
Im thinking at this stage theres an episode of Louis Theroux to be made in these threads
Ler me know when its on and I'll record it

You arrived back on these threads, highly critical of the entrenched opinions here. Here you are entrenched in trying to keep the words 'criminal and Varadkar' out of the same sentence.

It's a criminal investigation Nobotty, be it preliminary or formal. Nobody has suggested Leo has been found to be a criminal..yet.

Relax.

Nobotty

blanch152 wrote: »

Investigating if a crime has been committed is NOT a criminal investigation, it is routine preliminary enquiries.

Can you not see the problem,some posters here have with what Leo did?
With FF and FG,they see a never ending whiff of cronyism which handing documents or giving information to your friend privately is easily a possible example?
Its not much of an extention of that to be hoping for 'criminal investigations'
In my view if it came to that vradakar would need to step aside and it would be doubtfull he'd be stepping back

The problem for his haters is,his base I expect have accepted him which is why his party are up on their GE performance and thats infuriating

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You arrived back on these threads, highly critical of the entrenched opinions here. Here you are entrenched in trying to keep the words 'criminal and Varadkar' out of the same sentence.

It's a criminal investigation Nobotty, be it preliminary or formal. Nobody has suggested Leo has been found to be a criminal..yet.

Relax.

In all fairness now,Id do the same for anyone
Its not an entrenched position,its reality and thats one thing youll always hear from me
Theres absolutely nothing entrenching about the truth and reality
Its often uncomfortable
And No ,there is NO criminal investigation unless the document is found to have been covered by the official secrets act
All points to it not being as it was already released to private citizens

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

You are welcome.

There are plenty more 'predictions' from months back as well, none of which have come to pass.

They are not predictions. They are not claims.
One states there's a potential for jail time based on what he did. The other believes they should receive jail time.

These are not:

Many a regular poster had grand claims on what would happen to Leo, from being sent to jail to being sacked, to be out on his ear within the week the story broke.

In short complete baloney and spin from youse.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Am I wrong? Releasing this story the week of the US presidential election? Amateur stuff, but anyway.

The only people who care about this are some people on Twitter, some people on boards and other forums and The Village Magazine.

Granted it made the news when it was revealed that the Gardai were making preliminary enquires, as it's their job to do. But this story is done unless some other major revelation is brought to bare, which is not at all likely.

Who do you think are on Twitter? I see everyday folk, celebrities, politicians, companies, groups, state boards etc.

If it was held onto for a more opportune time would that be fair and unbiased reporting? Not every publication has the character of the folk shill for FF/FG.
The FF/FG/Greens should care about this. Stating they don't care just bolsters their shame.

I would guess folk are waiting on any findings from the Garda.
Facts are he did wrong and wasn't held accountable and was supported by FF/FG/Green. What ever reputations they had have been further damaged.

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

There isnt a hope in hell of that as he's negotiated 2 more years as Taoiseach for himself
2 years when the population will be fully vaccinated and Id expect our economy and the worlds to be roaring forward
To paraphrase haugheys description of Ahern 'the cleverest politician of them all'
Sinn Féin know this which is why their strategy is virulent towards him in particular as evidenced also by their more prominent supporters typical postings here
Whats super annoying is,he went into this declaring to be earlier happy to 'relish' going into opposition but instead 'stumbled' back into power and doubtless will express the same again in 2 years
Nothing goes on forever,there is that

It is my opinion and it is past tense because the opportunity for FF/FG/Green to show any standards has past.
Will this be recollected as my claiming he'd be sacked?

Varadkar is an opportunist. He doesn't have half the wit I'd attribute to the like of Haughey or Ahern.

SF again, (Obsessed?)? Whatever about SF, you suggest absolutely nobody in public or private life have any real issue with what Varadkar did. That's at best wishful thinking or pure spin designed to dismiss any due criticism.

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

In all fairness now,Id do the same for anyone
Its not an entrenched position,its reality and thats one thing youll always hear from me
Theres absolutely nothing entrenching about the truth and reality
Its often uncomfortable
And No ,there is NO criminal investigation unless the document is found to have been covered by the official secrets act
All points to it not being as it was already released to private citizens

Again you ignore the corruption complaint which is over and above the OSA.

You are trying too hard Nobotty

blanch152

Nobotty wrote: »

Can you not see the problem,some posters here have with what Leo did?
With FF and FG,they see a never ending whiff of cronyism which handing documents or giving information to your friend privately is easily a possible example?
Its not much of an extention of that to be hoping for 'criminal investigations'
In my view if it came to that vradakar would need to step aside and it would be doubtfull he'd be stepping back

The problem for his haters is,his base I expect have accepted him which is why his party are up on their GE performance and thats infuriating

The document wasn't confidential, wasn't covered by the OSA.

I have previously given the example whereby the Government enters pay negotiations with ICTU. PDFORRA and the GRA are not part of these discussions because of some recognition issues. As a result, the government shares the confidential negotiation documents with them regularly, early drafts, final drafts etc. There was a situation a couple of years back where one document got leaked to a newspaper and ICTU went mad about it leaking, blaming those outside the process. However, the reason for sharing the document with PDFORRA is the same one as the reason for sharing this document with O'Tuathail. It is the way that these things work and there is no cronyism or criminality involved.

The only difference is that Varadkar knew O'tuathaill and shared it through private channels and not through normal ones. He has apologised for that but there is nothing criminal or cronyism about it.

Suckit

Nobotty wrote: »

There isnt a hope in hell of that as he's negotiated 2 more years as Taoiseach for himself
2 years when the population will be fully vaccinated and Id expect our economy and the worlds to be roaring forward
To paraphrase haugheys description of Ahern 'the cleverest politician of them all'
Sinn Féin know this which is why their strategy is virulent towards him in particular as evidenced also by their more prominent supporters typical postings here
Whats super annoying is,he went into this declaring to be earlier happy to 'relish' going into opposition but instead 'stumbled' back into power and doubtless will express the same again in 2 years
Nothing goes on forever,there is that

I'm not sure I get that point... Haughey said of Ahern that he was the mosdt devious of them all. Are you suggesting that Varadkar is the the cleverest politician of them all?

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again you ignore the corruption complaint which is over and above the OSA.

You are trying too hard Nobotty

Unless theres something new there like an actual monetary gain,thats going nowhere either
If you are suggesting that,youll be relying on Vradakar not sueing you because as you know allegations of that nature arent safe to make behind an internet moniker
Veracity first
You go to the guards who decide on the veracity
No veracity,no criminality
It really is that simple ,no trying hard at all

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

Unless theres something new there like an actual monetary gain,thats going nowhere either
If you are suggesting that,youll be relying on Vradakar not sueing you because as you know allegations of that nature arent safe to make behind an internet moniker
Veracity first
You go to the guards who decide on the veracity
No veracity,no criminality
It really is that simple ,no trying hard at all

I'm not suggesting anything...it is you who are trying the case here and finding him innocent.

P.S. There does not have to be any evidence of monetary gain for it to be adjudged corrupt.

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

Unless theres something new there like an actual monetary gain,thats going nowhere either
If you are suggesting that,youll be relying on Vradakar not sueing you because as you know allegations of that nature arent safe to make behind an internet moniker
Veracity first
You go to the guards who decide on the veracity
No veracity,no criminality
It really is that simple ,no trying hard at all

He passed a confidential document to a pal. That's one part. The pal was the head of a rival union. This raises issues of trust regarding negotiations with government, specifically any with Varadkar.
The other part for me is Varadkar doing it to try get support from members of his pal's union by doing them a solid, 'Leo always comes through' or something to that effect.
The final part is how FF/FG/Greens shrugged it off.
I don't put much weight in the Garda investigation. It's unlikely they'll get any truth for any of those they question anyway.
I think it was you asking why it's still being talked about? Well someone was. It's still being talked about because LV's apologists and defenders come on here all day every day spouting all kinds of nonsense.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything...it is you who are trying the case here and finding him innocent.

P.S. There does not have to be any evidence of monetary gain for it to be adjudged corrupt.

What case?

The Gardai haven't even concluded that there is a case to investigate let alone answer.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

What case?

The Gardai haven't even concluded that there is a case to investigate let alone answer.

Head. Meet brick wall. With some force. Repeatedly.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

What case?

The Gardai haven't even concluded that there is a case to investigate let alone answer.

Deleted User wrote: »

Head. Meet brick wall. With some force. Repeatedly.

I see what happened here.
Francie was saying;

I'm not suggesting anything...it is you who are trying the case here and finding him innocent.

Francie says here that he's not saying anything. So it's not Francie saying it at all. You with me?

He goes on to say that the other poster (Nobotty) is the one seemingly 'trying the case here'.

So when youse are asking what case, there's no case etc. youse got the wrong end of the stick and completely misunderstood Francie's comment.

Not to worry, stuff happens.

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything...it is you who are trying the case here and finding him innocent.

P.S. There does not have to be any evidence of monetary gain for it to be adjudged corrupt.

Ah we're back to North Korean justice again
Guilty untill proved innocent and in this instance before even anything illegal has been established
Its not the politics I advocate or aspire to
I see (again)

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything...it is you who are trying the case here and finding him innocent.

P.S. There does not have to be any evidence of monetary gain for it to be adjudged corrupt.

Ah, the well-known kangaroo system of justice. Let the mobs with the pitchforks set the man alight.

JustAThought

One hand washing the other. Leaked commercially sensitive documents being given to an insider friend for him to try and commercially profit from it. Exactly the type of cronyism we have been ridden with for decades. Maybe the Competition Authority should be next in line to investigate. lets face it - they were government documents compiled using state resources that were secretly given to a friend in the business. They should be looking very closely at it and the businesses and practices of all parties concerned - as should revenue.

How many more of these insider deals have given commercial advantage to the families and friends of politicians. Corruption and cronyism and anti competitive practices at their best. there are laws against all of them.

Maybe revenue and cab should start with the self declared assets and business interests listed on that kildare street website the pretends to list all business interests by politicians and their families. CAB and revenue should definately be digging there - especially when this kind of thing is going on and everyone just shrugging their shoulders casually over it.

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

Ah we're back to North Korean justice again
Guilty untill proved innocent and in this instance before even anything illegal has been established
Its not the politics I advocate or aspire to
I see (again)

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah, the well-known kangaroo system of justice. Let the mobs with the pitchforks set the man alight.

Lads, have a look at the law relating to corruption. It is exactly as I said: monetary gain does not have to proved:

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2017/122/eng/initiated/b12217d.pdf

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Lads, have a look at the law relating to corruption. It is exactly as I said: monetary gain does not have to proved:

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2017/122/eng/initiated/b12217d.pdf

I think you should write mystery novels,you'd be good at it
24 hours you're pretending now not to know the difference between investigating a complaint and investigating a crime
Such levels of reality suspension are prerequisite

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

I think you should write mystery novels,you'd be good at it
24 hours you're pretending now not to know the difference between investigating a complaint and investigating a crime
Such levels of reality suspension are prerequisite

It's alleged Varadkar broke the law, committed a crime, and the Garda are investigating.
By your understanding there'd be no such thing as a criminal investigation.
They aren't investigating the complaint, they're investigating if a crime took place or not.

Nobotty

James Brown wrote: »

It's alleged Varadkar broke the law, committed a crime, and the Garda are investigating.
By your understanding there'd be no such thing as a criminal investigation.
They aren't investigating the complaint, they're investigating if a crime took place or not.

Sorry James,Thats NOT the procedure
However much you may want it to be

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

I think you should write mystery novels,you'd be good at it
24 hours you're pretending now not to know the difference between investigating a complaint and investigating a crime
Such levels of reality suspension are prerequisite

24 hours ago you thought there was only one complaint. You are bandying about claims about N. Korea etc rather than accept that in order to test the veracity of the complaints the Gardai will have to review all the evidence available. That is a Criminal Investigation Unit looking into criminal behaviour.

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

24 hours ago you thought there was only one complaint. You are bandying about claims about N. Korea etc rather than accept that in order to test the veracity of the complaints the Gardai will have to review all the evidence available. That is a Criminal Investigation Unit looking into criminal behaviour.

Yeah,I did say yesterday to you that it was hardly going to be the traffic corps involved
None of what you're saying changes the process ie that the complaints veracity is investigated first
No crime,no investigation of a crime
Veracity first