Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'm going to go through this statement, line by line, for your benefit.


It is good to get the detail
Details of the agreement presumably


but I find this exercise very frustrating. The outline of the deal was agreed about two weeks ago.
This means that the IMO agreement had been concluded for weeks, so there was no reason for the actual document to be sent around.


The GPs have not seen it, the public have not seen it, and we have not seen it. We are being given pages of facts and figures now. We have not seen them before.
This is saying that they are currently being given the details, but should have received them before this date. He is saying that it is very difficult to give an informed opinion without time to digest the details of the agreement, an opinion echoed by other members.


I have asked the Department for them and I have asked the HSE. We have been denied access to any of the detail. We are sort of expected to stand up here now and respond.
He is saying that they should have been sent the agreement in advance, and that debating the details of the agreement with such little notice is unreasonable.


I agree with him. I don't see any real reason the agreement couldn't have been sent in advance. Small potatoes though.

Sigh.....

If you read further you will see he's clearly referencing some bullet points "facts and figures" they've been given, but they didn't have the actual agreement, you know the same agreement Leo sent to Zero Craic?

From the same Dail debate.

However, former Independent TD and GP Michael Harty revealed he had seen more details of the deal.

The County Clare deputy told the Dáil he had a copy of the agreement in his possession, and said the agreement was “still under discussion at IMO meetings”.

“I may have an advantage, being an IMO member, in that I have in my possession a document which outlines, in broad brush strokes, what is contained in the agreement,” he said.

bolded bit for clarity.

That TD stating he actually had a copy of the agreement in his possession, which would indicate the rest did not. He further stated he had it because he was an IMO member, not because he was a TD (Simon Harris couldn't even obtain a copy sure) and said it was still under discussion at IMO meetings.

Also, here's when the agreement was published on the site.

It would be another month before the full detail was announced. The Department of Health published the entire text of the IMO deal on 17 May 2019.

RandomName2

McMurphy wrote: »

Sigh.....

Either way the implication would be that the details of the agreement (which were discussed at length in the Dail) were clearly not confidential at this stage.

Is there a meaningful distinction between the details of the agreement and the pdf?

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

Either way the implication would be that the details of the agreement (which were discussed at length in the Dail) were clearly not confidential at this stage.

Is there a meaningful distinction between the details of the agreement and the pdf?

Leo doesn't know what the exact day was he passed the documents to OTuathail only that he did so between 11th or the 16th (I find this hard to believe though) either way, these dates were before the Dail debate, and even during the Dail debate the full text of the agreement hadn't been made public.

So in that context, I highly doubt the Gardai or DPP will be taking it into consideration any meaningful distinction between them, when making their decisions to prosecute or not.

RandomName2

McMurphy wrote: »

Leo doesn't know what the exact day was he passed the documents to OTuathail only that he did so between 11th or the 16th (I find this hard to believe though) either way, these dates were before the Dail debate, and even during the Dail debate the full text of the agreement hadn't been made public.

So in that context, I highly doubt the Gardai or DPP will be taking it into consideration when making their decisions to prosecute or not.

What grounds do you have to believe OTuathail received the document before the 16th? The first date we see on the WhatsApp messages is dated the 17th.

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

What grounds do you have to believe OTuathail received the document before the 16th? The first date we see on the WhatsApp messages is dated the 17th.

Well there's the fact Leo Varadkar himself said he sent it sometime between 11th and the 16th, so tberes s window of 5 days there. I don't actually know when he received it, I said I didn't believe Leo when he said he wasn't sure when he sent it.

By the way, just because he let the inner sanctum know he had it on the 17th proves nothing anyway. Leo probably didn't think Zero Craic would be silly enough to brag about it on WhatsApp.

Leo Varadkar wrote:

He said he posted the document to Dr Ó Tuathail between April 11th and 16th 2019 on a confidential basis believing that it would be published in full imminently.

As shown last night, we know it really wasn't published in full until May 17th

Over a month after Leo sent it to OTuathail.

thomas 123

McMurphy wrote: »

Well there's the fact Leo Varadkar himself said he sent it sometime between 11th and the 16th, so tberes s window of 5 days there. I don't actually know when he received it, I said I didn't believe Leo when he said he wasn't sure when he sent it.

By the way, just because he let the inner sanctum know he had it on the 17th proves nothing anyway. Leo probably didn't think Zero Craic would be silly enough to brag about it on WhatsApp.



As shown last night, we know it really wasn't published in full until May 17th

Over a month after Leo sent it to OTuathail.

Just waiting for maryanne84 to come in with “a full 10 days after it was discussed at x event”

McMurphy

thomas 123 wrote: »

Just waiting for maryanne84 to come in with “a full 10 days after it was discussed at x event”

She's welcome to, I've a few follow up questions for her if she does.

shatners bassoon

blanch152 wrote: »

No, the Gardai are investigating it on foot of a complaint made to them, something they have to do no matter how frivilous the complaint.

This thread has jumped the shark

nialler1978

Leo looked considerably browbeaten on Claire Byrne last night, no real energy or enthusiasm about him, seemed almost uninterested in discussing the topic or being there. This stuff must have him worn out.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

Just waiting for maryanne84 to come in with “a full 10 days after it was discussed at x event”

McMurphy wrote: »

She's welcome to, I've a few follow up questions for her if she does.

Morning all. Thrilled that you guys value my humble opinion. Here’s a link to the IMO Press Release dated April 5th 2019. I hope that it clarifies things and sets your minds at ease. https://www.imo.ie/news-media/news-press-releases/2019/statement-imo-reaches-210/index.xml

RandomName2

McMurphy wrote: »

Well there's the fact Leo Varadkar himself said he sent it sometime between 11th and the 16th, so tberes s window of 5 days there. I don't actually know when he received it, I said I didn't believe Leo when he said he wasn't sure when he sent it.

By the way, just because he let the inner sanctum know he had it on the 17th proves nothing anyway. Leo probably didn't think Zero Craic would be silly enough to brag about it on WhatsApp.

The whole point of the exercise was for OTuathail, the president of NAGP, to discuss it with the NAGP. The earliest he seemingly did so was the 17th. Maybe he wasn't very interested in the document and took several days to tell anybody about it.. but I don't think any of us really believe that. Most likely scenario is that he would boast about it the day after having received it.

McMurphy wrote: »

As shown last night, we know it really wasn't published in full until May 17th

Just checking: did I miss something? Skimpydoo showed that it was cached by Google on 17th May, which would actually indicate the latest, not earliest time, it was published in full.

Now I would suspect the HSE would take a while to upload it. They aren't known for being particularly technically savvy.. or prompt.. but something doesn't have to be easily available online to be considered published.

Baggly

Mod

McMurphy temporarily banned for ignoring the mod warning around bickering.

Everyone else please ensure you are civil in your posts.

FrancieBrady

It should be remembered that Varadkar is being investigated under the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018 according to the Irish Times. This clearly isn't just about whether he broke the Official Secrets Act.

Nobotty

I think whats needed here,is to convince vradakars base that he's toxic
The risk is,no crime is investigated as none exists
Thats going to just reinforce vradakars 'persecuted' base
My middle sentence above is key to where this goes
We are certainly looking at Mary Lou as Taoiseach soon anyway
Its just a case of who buddies up
An extra 10 or 12 seats for Sinn Féin will be a breeze,maybe 15
Just have to put up with the current show a while longer
Patience warriors and no fcuk ups please

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

The whole point of the exercise was for OTuathail, the president of NAGP, to discuss it with the NAGP. The earliest he seemingly did so was the 17th. Maybe he wasn't very interested in the document and took several days to tell anybody about it.. but I don't think any of us really believe that. Most likely scenario is that he would boast about it the day after having received it.

Him boasting about it on the WhatsApp group doesn't show when he initially received it though, perhaps himself and others discussed it in great detail before it was decided he could let the others in the "inner sanctum" know he had it?

As said. Leo himself said it was expected he would keep it confidential. I.E - not brag, especially not in a WhatsApp messenger group where it could be screengrabbed and cause the ructions it's actually caused.

Just checking: did I miss something? Skimpydoo showed that it was cached by Google on 17th May, which would actually indicate the latest, not earliest time, it was published in full.

Now I would suspect the HSE would take a while to upload it. They aren't known for being particularly technically savvy.. or prompt.. but something doesn't have to be easily available online to be considered published.

I'm not going by skimpys post though.

It's in the public domain when it was published.

According to Varadkar’s Dáil statement, “The matter did not return to Cabinet as no significant changes were made between then and its formal publication on May 17th,

skimpydoo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just checking: did I miss something? Skimpydoo showed that it was cached by Google on 17th May, which would actually indicate the latest, not earliest time, it was published in full.

What I posted last night was not when it was cached but when it was actually published.

McMurphy

skimpydoo wrote: »

What I posted last night was not when it was cached but when it was actually published.

Leo's statement to the Dail and his defence was based on when it was formally published. Not a Google cache.

Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Pintman Paddy Losty

McMurphy wrote: »

Leo's statement to the Dail and his defence was based on when it was formally published. Not a Google cache.

Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Careful Murph. Think you're thread banned. The gestapo will be all over you for disobeying mod instructions. Best scram.

markodaly

I have to commend RandomName for their patience in trying to outlay that actual facts here.
Perhaps we can agree to a timeline of events?

Gerald Howlin made a very strong defence in regarding this leak or non-leak as he put it.

RandomName2

skimpydoo wrote: »

The link became active on May 17th 2019.

That document was seemingly created in late March, last updated on May 17th.


https://pasteboard.co/JTX4Rza.png

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

That document was seemingly created in late March, last updated on May 17th.


https://pasteboard.co/JTX4Rza.png

Ahem....


Statement of the Tánaiste, Leo Varadkar T.D., Dáil Éireann, Tuesday 3 November 2020.

Plumbthedepths

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Careful Murph. Think you're thread banned. The gestapo will be all over you for disobeying mod instructions. Best scram.

Are you calling the Moderation team the Gestapo?

Baggly

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Careful Murph. Think you're thread banned. The gestapo will be all over you for disobeying mod instructions. Best scram.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Are you calling the Moderation team the Gestapo?

Mod

Hilarious.

Report if you see an issue folks. Dont comment on thread and derail the thing.

markodaly

3rd of April - The deal was agreed on the between the HSE and the IMO.
5th of April, - The IMO released a press statement on the outlining some of the key aspects of the deal.
10th of April - Cabinet signs off on the deal
11th-16th of April, - Leo gave the NGAP a copy of the agreement more likely the tail end of those dates.
16th of April - Dail debate on the deal
16th of April - Dr Harty, Independant TD reveals he has the entire agreement in his possesion.
16th of April - Ingrid Miley, industrial relations correspondent for RTE states she has seen more extensive parts of the deal as per her reports.
17th of April. - Andrew Jordan from the NGAP stating that their members must be given access to the new agreement on Twitter
17th of May. - Deal was published in full to the public


Am I getting anything wrong here on the timeline?
Forgetting anything?
Missing anything?

RandomName2

McMurphy wrote: »

Him boasting about it on the WhatsApp group doesn't show when he initially received it though, perhaps himself and others discussed it in great detail before it was decided he could let the others in the "inner sanctum" know he had it?

So you discuss it with lots of people, but not the most important members of your union? Note that this was clearly the first the members of the 'inner sanctum' had heard about it, at all.

While it is not outside the realms of possibility, this is not very plausible.

McMurphy wrote: »

As said. Leo himself said it was expected he would keep it confidential. I.E - not brag, especially not in a WhatsApp messenger group where it could be screengrabbed and cause the ructions it's actually caused.

That is totally true, but he would have expected it to be shared with the top of the NAGP in some shape or form. That was the entire point of the exercise.

McMurphy wrote: »

I'm not going by skimpys post though.

Again we are getting into weird terminology. Usually creating a link to something is not considered to be publishing. Technically speaking, it has never been published as there is no publisher, nor am I sure if it has been printed and bound. There isn't even an author listed. This would usually crop up around copyright, but this document wouldn't even be subject to copyright.

So while them taking weeks to upload it is nothing out of the usual, it should raise significant eyebrows if substantive changes were made after April 16th. I cannot imagine there were, as the agreement had been finalized at the beginning of April, and the details of the agreement debated in the Dail on the 16th.

Incidentally: you were the only person on your side of the debate seemingly willing to go to sources for your arguments, and not regurgitate braindead soundbites and rhetorical questions.

RandomName2

markodaly wrote: »

Am I getting anything wrong here on the timeline?
Forgetting anything?
Missing anything?

17th April: top members of the NAGP learn that OThuatail has a draft copy of the agreement.

markodaly

RandomName2 wrote: »

17th April: top members of the NAGP learn that OThuatail has a draft copy of the agreement.

OK, the updated version.

3rd of April - The deal was agreed on the between the HSE and the IMO.
5th of April, - The IMO released a press statement on the outlining some of the key aspects of the deal.
10th of April - Cabinet signs off on the deal
11th-16th of April, - Leo gave the NGAP a copy of the agreement more likely the tail end of those dates.
16th of April - Dail debate on the deal
16th of April - Dr Harty, Independant TD reveals he has the entire agreement in his possesion.
16th of April - Ingrid Miley, industrial relations correspondent for RTE states she has seen more extensive parts of the deal as per her reports.
17th of April. - Andrew Jordan from the NGAP stating that their members must be given access to the new agreement on Twitter
17th April - top members of the NAGP learn that OThuatail has a draft copy of the agreement.
17th of May. - Deal was published in full to the public


Can we please refer to this timeline to head up any falsehoods?

RandomName2

McMurphy wrote: »

Ahem....

You can ahem on this matter all you want.

Clearly the contract with the IMO was concluded at the beginning of April, as has already been well established in this thread.

The document describing the agreement was created and its contents debated in the Dail on the 16th.

From then until a month later is a bit of a mystery, currently. This was as much meta information as I was able to obtain from the document itself, which lists no dates, no authors, has no versions described, has no breadcrumbs to follow. All I can tell was when it was created, and when it was last updated.

markodaly

It is also clear that many members of the IMO had the agreement to view and digest before it was passed onto the NGAP.

James Brown

When people ask what 'confidential' or 'public domain' means they are either unwilling to take information on board or, (hopefully for their sake) just taking the piss.

Varadkar leaked a confidential government document to his pal. The Garda have initiated a criminal investigation and Varadkar is a person of interest.
These are the facts.

The idea that Varadkar apologised for the manner in which he passed a publicly available document which the Garda are now carrying out a criminal investigation on, is some Olympic level gymnastics.