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Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05
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Rows Grower wrote: »There's no getting away from the fact that Leo leaked a confidential document to friend of his
Well knock me down with a feather.
I am not saying this is not accurate, but as I keep saying, if people are not able to post something where the salient points are nothing other than 'friend' leak' 'leo' then it's just a rehash of something that has been said over, and over again, month on month. Just bringing something up without adding anything feels like it's being brought up just for the sake of it.
Bobby Story.Rows Grower wrote: »who had threatened to do damage to the party Leo was leader of if he didn't.
O'Thuanthail never threatened to do damage to Fine Gael. He was a clear supporter of Fine Gael. NAGP were clearly antagonistic to the government, and threatened they would advise their members to publicly denounce Fine Gael as a party which did not favor 'patient services in the community' if they weren't included in negotiations.
And well, they weren't included in negotiations. They complained about the government in their death rattle, as Fine Gael threw earth over the corpse of the organization.Rows Grower wrote: »And he was caught, and what he did was against the law.
No need for an investigation lads, Rows Grower has got this all worked out already.0 -
This electoral threat happens to be in a letter to FG TDs/the Heydon letter.RandomName2 wrote: »Electoral threats posed by trade unions are fairly toothless tigers.
No. Varadkar leaked a confidential document, the draft of the agreement that had not been finalised, to his friend O'Tuathail.As a pathetic gesture of good will Varadkar gave the information about the concluded agreement to the heads of NAGP.
The threat followed by the leak of the confidential document is the problem for Varadkar and FG.
Regards...jmcc0 -
Of course you can, but the letter with the Kildare street address at the bottom is kind of pertinent to the point being made.
Being that..- NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
- That they wanted to be, but were not, included in negotiations?
- That they said that the government's strategy was actively harmful for local healthcare?
They should have hired better PR if you didn't already know that because they said all the above, all the time, on all their social media feeds.0 - NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
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RandomName2 wrote: »Being that..
- NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
- That they wanted to be, but were not, included in negotiations?
- That they said that the government's strategy was actively harmful for local healthcare?
They should have hired better PR if you didn't already know that because they said all the above, all the time, on all their social media feeds.
No, the point made was varadkar chose to send it to zero Craic home address, rather than that of NAGP Kildare street address.
(But I think you knew that)0 - NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
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RandomName2 wrote: »Being that..
- NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
- That they wanted to be, but were not, included in negotiations?
- That they said that the government's strategy was actively harmful for local healthcare?
They should have hired better PR if you didn't already know that because they said all the above, all the time, on all their social media feeds.
Here's another problem for Varadkar, FG and NAGP:
Members were holding off paying subscriptions until they knew what was in the DoH/IMO contract. (NAGP went into voluntary liquidation in May 2019.)
Regards...jmcc0 - NAGP was antagonistic to the government?
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(But I think you knew that)
I certainly did not.
So you are saying that the official letter from NAGP is interesting solely because it includes NAGP's address? Why would headed paper include one of their member's home address?
It really doesn't matter whether information is sent to someone's office or home. The important bit is sending the information. So, if the information was couriered to O'Thuanthail's GP surgery it would make zero difference to this.
It could have been sent in plain post to the NAGP office, with it being addressed specifically to O'Thuanthail. Again, this doesn't really change much. It would actually be worse as basic post would be less reliable and secure than a courier. He could have done it by registered post I suppose.
And the point.. the point.. I think this is just a repost of the 'pal' posts. Is the sum and total worth of this point is that O'Thuanthail was a friend of Varadkar's?0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »I certainly did not.
So you are saying that the official letter from NAGP is interesting solely because it includes NAGP's address? Why would headed paper include one of their member's home address?
It really doesn't matter whether information is sent to someone's office or home. The important bit is sending the information. So, if the information was couriered to O'Thuanthail's GP surgery it would make zero difference to this.
It could have been sent in plain post to the NAGP office, with it being addressed specifically to O'Thuanthail. Again, this doesn't really change much. It would actually be worse as basic post would be less reliable and secure than a courier. He could have done it by registered post I suppose.
And the point.. the point.. I think this is just a repost of the 'pal' posts. Is the sum and total worth of this point is that O'Thuanthail was a friend of Varadkar's?
No.......
There's a seperate issue to the contents of the letter sent to Martin Heydon by NAGP.
That being (as has already been discussed and posted just this morning) that it was interesting Leo asked for his (OTuathail) home and private address, rather than send it to him at NAGP address on Kildare street.
Note, (this has been covered today also) this followed after OTuathail made his threat about standing against fg candidates, and placing anti fg propaganda in GPs surgeries if they didn't get the information they wanted.
Followed by NAGP tweeting at the end of April 2019 that many of its members still hadn't seen this agreement, and were holding off renewing subs until they had.
NAGP went into voluntarily liquidation in May 2019.
All been covered already.0 -
No.......
That being (as has already been discussed and posted just this morning) that it was interesting Leo asked for his (OTuathail) home and private address, rather than send it to him at NAGP address on Kildare street.
I've already answered that it doesn't actually change anything in relation to this. If you are saying it is interesting from a motivation point of view, it presumably wouldn't be in terms of secrecy. Putting it in ordinary post, addressed specifically to O'Thuanthail would be more secretive than using a courier.Note, (this has been covered today also) this followed after OTuathail made his threat about standing against fg candidates, and placing anti fg propaganda in GPs surgeries if they didn't get the information they wanted.
I don't know why this keeps getting repeated. The threat was from Chris Goodey. A bit like the 'pal' jibes, it isn't really relevant that it was from Goodey rather than O'Thuanthail, the relevance (insofar that there is any, and there is not much) is that it was NAGP. In the same way that the address at which O'Thuanthail is being used to distract, so too is the person who sent the letter to that minister (he actually sent a lot of letters, as I said, NAGP did not exactly hold back in its criticisms). Distract from what? Surely the salient aspect is the information.
As I said in the deleted post, relating to the scrubbing of the homophobic stuff, it all feels like the distraction is meant to point at back-door shenanegans without actually being specific. It isn't relevant that O'Thuanthail was a friend of Varadkar's, what matters is whether the information disclosure is in break of the Official Secrets Act, and whether material gain was afforded to Varadkar through the transaction.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »I've already answered that it doesn't actually change anything in relation to this. If you are saying it is interesting from a motivation point of view, it presumably wouldn't be in terms of secrecy. Putting it in ordinary post, addressed specifically to O'Thuanthail would be more secretive than using a courier.
It's significant because it looks like Leo was sending it to OTuathail in a personal capacity, rather than sending it to him via NAGP Kildare street address - IE an official capacity.
It's like a supplier sending Xmas gifts to a purchaser from within a company to the purchasers home address. happens all the time within my industry, bottle of fancy whiskey/gin etc sent to an individual's home address to ensure they enjoy it personally.
Also, it's still to be clarified whether Leo sent it via courier/taxi (both of which I reckon would be fairly traceable) or just good old fashioned post. Not so traceable.
I don't know why this keeps getting repeated. The threat was from Chris Goodey. A bit like the 'pal' jibes, it isn't really relevant that it was from Goodey rather than O'Thuanthail, the relevance (insofar that there is any, and there is not much) is that it was NAGP. In the same way that the address at which O'Thuanthail is being used to distract, so too is the person who sent the letter to that minister (he actually sent a lot of letters, as I said, NAGP did not exactly hold back in its criticisms). Distract from what? Surely the salient aspect is the information.
As I said in the deleted post, relating to the scrubbing of the homophobic stuff, it all feels like the distraction is meant to point at back-door shenanegans without actually being specific. It isn't relevant that O'Thuanthail was a friend of Varadkar's, what matters is whether the information disclosure is in break of the Official Secrets Act, and whether material gain was afforded to Varadkar through the transaction.
My bad, I was confusing that letter and the one Zero Craic sent after the meeting that came on foot of the Goodey one.
Half a dozen of one and six of the other mind you.0 -
It's significant because it looks like Leo was sending it to OTuathail in a personal capacity, rather than sending it to him via NAGP Kildare street address - IE an official capacity.
Yes, but this is merely optics, surely. And optics that aren't witnessed by anyone is like one hand clapping.0 -
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RandomName2 wrote: »Yes, but this is merely optics, surely. And optics that aren't witnessed by anyone is like one hand clapping.
The optics weren't supposed to be witnessed by anyone. That's the fly in your ointment.0 -
The optics weren't supposed to be witnessed by anyone. That's the fly in your ointment.
But at the end of the day optics are just optics. They just give an appearance of something. If anything they distract from the core aspects.
Varadkar's apology was in relation to the optics. He said that it should have looked more professional, but that the principal of providing information relating to the GP agreement was not itself wrong (either ethically or legally). This is the case to prove or disprove. Everything else is just optics and optics are, as they ever have been, largely irrelevant.
Which is why I find the insistence of people repeating ad nauseum 'leo the leak gave documents to his pall' so tiresome. It wouldn't matter if O'Thuanthail hated Varadkar and was a life-time member of the Solidarity party. It is as relevant as his sexual orientation (which I had no knowledge of until the threadbanned guy discussed it). This always has been about the information. The information. The information. What public good did it potentially provide? What potential harm could its disclosure do? That's all that has ever been relevant, but people here are interested in optics, optics, optics (mainly their own, but sometimes with the thread topic thrown in).
In truth it is hard at this distance to actually come to a conclusion about the document. I have looked to see if it's online, and I can't find it. If there was no, and never would be, any opportunity to make significant changes to the GP agreement after providing it the NAGP then there's very little basis for there being any harm. It is not as if the information itself is at all sensitive after all. However if significant amendments were made after its debate in the Dail, on foot of suggestions from NAGP, that's a different story entirely. The public good angle is a straightforward enough narrative. This was the GP agreement which was going to be enacted. It was important to get GPs to sign up to it. Informing the largest GP union of the core aspects of this agreement would be useful to this end.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »But at the end of the day optics are just optics. They just give an appearance of something. If anything they distract from the core aspects.
Varadkar's apology was in relation to the optics. He said that it should have looked more professional, but that the principal of providing information relating to the GP agreement was not itself wrong (either ethically or legally). This is the case to prove or disprove. Everything else is just optics and optics are, as they ever have been, largely irrelevant.
Which is why I find the insistence of people repeating ad nauseum 'leo the leak gave documents to his pall' so tiresome. It wouldn't matter if O'Thuanthail hated Varadkar and was a life-time member of the Solidarity party. It is as relevant as his sexual orientation (which I had no knowledge of until the threadbanned guy discussed it). This always has been about the information. The information. The information. What public good did it potentially provide? What potential harm could its disclosure do? That's all that has ever been relevant, but people here are interested in optics, optics, optics (mainly their own, but sometimes with the thread topic thrown in).
In truth it is hard at this distance to actually come to a conclusion about the document. I have looked to see if it's online, and I can't find it. If there was no, and never would be, any opportunity to make significant changes to the GP agreement after providing it the NAGP then there's very little basis for there being any harm. It is not as if the information itself is at all sensitive after all. However if significant amendments were made after its debate in the Dail, on foot of suggestions from NAGP, that's a different story entirely. The public good angle is a straightforward enough narrative. This was the GP agreement which was going to be enacted. It was important to get GPs to sign up to it. Informing the largest GP union of the core aspects of this agreement would be useful to this end.
Can you quote where Varadkar states by 'manner' he means conveyance or format and not leaking? Isn't this just your opinion?
Reads like he apologised for not going through proper channels, i.e. leaking.
People need repeat it because folk keep denying it happened when it did.
The 'feels' are irrelevant. He passed on/leaked a confidential, unreleased, not yet published negotiation document to his pal, the then head of a rival union to the one engaged in the negotiations. These are the plain facts. These facts are all that's relevant.
As above, what you or anyone else feels could or might be of advantage or disadvantage it completely irrelevant.0 -
James Brown wrote: »Can you quote where Varadkar states by 'manner' he means conveyance or format
Core aspects. Information disclosed.
Going through it with O'Thuanthail line by line, sending it to his house, communicating its contents through an obscenely long string of emojis, courier, taxi, post, his house, the office, government buildings, the side of the street. Switch up the variables and the result is the same.
He says he should have gone through it with O'Thuanthail line by line, in person, and you say this is him saying he shouldn't have leaked it. I.. don't think I have anything to say on this front..James Brown wrote: »People need repeat it because folk keep denying it happened when it did.
Like the conspiracy theory stuff, I find these make believe people who deny that Varadkar leaked are part of that optics campaign I have already dismissed as irritating, distracting, and irrelevant. People who post it are arguing it with noone. They just want to be heard. Well, since it's 'optics', I suppose that should be 'read', but same idea. It is metaphorical noise even if it isn't literal noise.
At least it would have merit on twitter because the usual crowd would be trying to get a particular hashtag trending. Again, for the sake of optics.0 -
Varadkar, according to the e-mail that was subject to the FOI request claimed that he wanted to look at the agreement again. There's no mention of it being given to O'Tuathail or the NAGP.
"Do you have a copy of this [the contract]? SH [Simon Harris] gave it to me but I put it into the recycling bin having read it. Want to look at it again."
https://twitter.com/mattcarthy/status/1374872796510179332/photo/1
"Varadkar told the Dail that he sought the document for his personal use, but these revelations show that he was making arrangements to leak it before he even had it in his possession." (Pearse Doherty/SF)
There does seem to be an FG attempt to change the narrative to make it appear that Varadkar was trying to bring the NAGP onboard despite the NAGP not being party to the negotiations. A confidential document was leaked by Varadkar to his friend O'Tuathail after NAGP had sent that letter outlining the effects of NAGP members campaigning against FG.
O'Tuathail had asked Harris for a copy of the document but did not get it. He then asked his friend Varadkar for a copy and Varadkar obtained it and sent it the same day.
The confidential document was sent to O'Tuathail's home address (Varadkar asked for it.) rather than the business address of the NAGP. No matter how FG tries to spin this, it is a very serious situation for Varadkar and the credibility of FG.
Regards...jmcc0 -
Varadkar, according to the e-mail that was subject to the FOI request claimed that he wanted to look at the agreement again. There's no mention of it being given to O'Tuathail or the NAGP.
"Do you have a copy of this [the contract]? SH [Simon Harris] gave it to me but I put it into the recycling bin having read it. Want to look at it again."
https://twitter.com/mattcarthy/status/1374872796510179332/photo/1
"Varadkar told the Dail that he sought the document for his personal use, but these revelations show that he was making arrangements to leak it before he even had it in his possession." (Pearse Doherty/SF)
There does seem to be an FG attempt to change the narrative to make it appear that Varadkar was trying to bring the NAGP onboard despite the NAGP not being party to the negotiations. A confidential document was leaked by Varadkar to his friend O'Tuathail after NAGP had sent that letter outlining the effects of NAGP members campaigning against FG.
O'Tuathail had asked Harris for a copy of the document but did not get it. He then asked his friend Varadkar for a copy and Varadkar obtained it and sent it the same day.
The confidential document was sent to O'Tuathail's home address (Varadkar asked for it.) rather than the business address of the NAGP. No matter how FG tries to spin this, it is a very serious situation for Varadkar and the credibility of FG.
Regards...jmcc
All members of the NAgP would have to sign that same contract ,thats 40% of the countries gp's meaning it was a good idea to bring them in
Vradakar was doing this on the quiet(or so he thought)
How do you get over the hurdle of that case he's making and make it a crime?
Vradakars FG base are obviously already with him on this if being consistently 10% up on the GE in red c polls is anything to go by
I'm just not see'ing anything here troublesome for them
Everything is out in the open,theres nothing new since the thread started and the 2 debates other than the Gardaí are rightly being thorough, is there0 -
Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail. He knew, based on the FOIed e-mail that IMO had not published the document and had not distributed it to its members. NAGP was not party to the negotiations. NAGP also had members who were holding off renewing their subscriptions as they did not know what was in the DoH/IMO contract. The board of NAGP resigned in late April 2019 and NAGP went into voluntary liquidation with debts of around 400K Euro in May 2019.All members of the NAgP would have to sign that same contract ,thats 40% of the countries gp's meaning it was a good idea to bring them in
Vradakar was doing this on the quiet(or so he thought)
Varadkar was not making a case. He was making excuses after the story broke. There is an on-going criminal investigation dealing with the issue of what laws may have been broken and who may have broken them.How do you get over the hurdle of that case he's making and make it a crime?
If the Village Magazine had not published this story, it might never have been told and there would have been no criminal investigation into Varadkar leaking a confidential document to his friend. Both the Official Secrets Act and corruption legislation have been mentioned.
Regards...jmcc0 -
So like I asked last night,is it the boards.ie prosecution supposition that vradakar did this to save the NAGP? Versus vradakar's being,these guys needed to be on board,I know their president so I'll facilitate him but I took an unfortunate short cutVaradkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail. He knew, based on the FOIed e-mail that IMO had not published the document and had not distributed it to its members. NAGP was not party to the negotiations. NAGP also had members who were holding off renewing their subscriptions as they did not know what was in the DoH/IMO contract. The board of NAGP resigned in late April 2019 and NAGP went into voluntary liquidation with debts of around 400K Euro in May 2019.
Thats your basis for a crime
[ cue Judge Judy laugh]Varadkar was not making a case. He was making excuses after the story broke. There is an on-going criminal investigation dealing with the issue of what laws may have been broken and who may have broken them.
If the Village Magazine had not published this story, it might never have been told and there would have been no criminal investigation into Varadkar leaking a confidential document to his friend. Both the Official Secrets Act and corruption legislation have been mentioned.
Regards...jmcc
You're right,there'd be no fuss if O'Tuathall hadnt whatsapped
But the rest is opinion without any juice at all as to where the crime is
The gain for FG and the saving a limited liability entity ,the Nagp from bankruptcy being evidence of crime is a stretch
To expect those to trump vradakars explanation in the eyes of investigators,however much yours or my politics doesnt like it,is cloud cuckoo land
Much more plausible IMO is,a complaint is made,its hot coal being thoroughly investigated as is the rightful process, and it probably wont be the junior staff signing off on its conclusion given it involves politics ,ie its sensitive0 -
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You haven't any crime (yet or most likely ever from what I can see)
The reason Judge Judy is laughing is because you are trying to invent one with 2 things that never happened
(a) FG got its lowest vote ever I think and (b) the NagP went bankrupt even with its president having the document and all irs gps signing up to it
I genuinely wonder if facts matter here
They should0 -
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You haven't any crime (yet or most likely ever from what I can see)
The reason Judge Judy is laughing is because you are trying to invent one with 2 things that never happened
(a) FG got its lowest vote ever I think and (b) the NagP went bankrupt even with its president having the document and all irs gps signing up to it
I genuinely wonder if facts matter here
They should
Point is he did what he did. Thankfully he was rumbled. Doing it and getting away with it wouldn't have made it okay.0 -
James Brown wrote: »Point is he did what he did. Thankfully he was rumbled. Doing it and getting away with it wouldn't have made it okay.
For the likes of you and me maybe, but for the likes of him, his hangers on and others in the golden circle, it would have been the perfect crime. The one that isn't investigated.When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.
Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.
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James Brown wrote: »Point is he did what he did. Thankfully he was rumbled. Doing it and getting away with it wouldn't have made it okay.
I agree,but high crime and mis deameanor to his base or the centre bits of FF/independents he might canibalise it is not
In life you are going to get,people,parties and voters that dont do what you want0 -
There does seem to be an FG attempt to change the narrative to make it appear that Varadkar was trying to bring the NAGP onboard despite the NAGP not being party to the negotiations.
Just got to double check the date this was posted. It would be embarrassing if I was replying to a post from the second page of this thread.
Now. It's from today.
Well, maybe you are new to this conversation, and it's your first time posting in this thread. If so, my apologies. But this has been the stance of Fine Gael since 31st October 2020.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-rejects-allegations-he-acted-unlawfully-in-sharing-draft-gp-contract-1.4396697
https://www.finegael.ie/statement-on-behalf-of-an-tanaiste-leo-varadkar/A confidential document was leaked by Varadkar to his friend O'Tuathail after NAGP had sent that letter outlining the effects of NAGP members campaigning against FG.
Again, I understand if you are new to this thread that you can't be wading through all 566 pages of content. After, all, people keep posting the same stuff, over and over again, so there's been a lot of content bloat, so it's understandable if you couldn't get though all of it.
I've outlined why O'Thuanthail being Varadkar's friend is as relevant as O'Thuanthail's sexuality, in the same way it being sent to O'Thuanthail's office would make this no different from it being sent to his home. The information, and potential harm, is the crux of the matter.
Also I have pointed out that the NAGP have always been opposed to the government: long before they received the GP agreement, and after they received the GP agreement. I can't say 'long' after before they didn't survive long afterwards, cursing the government with their last breaths as they fell into bankruptsy due, they claim, to the government freezing them out of contracts.
What was that threat about?
The government freezing them out of contracts.
Did the government stop freezing them out?
Nope!
So.. what where was this killer political blow? They are GPs. They've about as much political clout as a pear. The government could afford for them to die.The confidential document was sent to O'Tuathail's home address (Varadkar asked for it.) rather than the business address of the NAGP. No matter how FG tries to spin this, it is a very serious situation for Varadkar and the credibility of FG.
What? This. Again. If he had run out of Leinster House with it bundled under his arm, and pressed into O'Thuanthail's sweaty palms, that would be significantly different from it being sent to his home? Of course not. If it had been sent to NAGP office, and addressed personally to O'Thuanthail nothing would be different. You would be the first to say it would make no difference were that the actual course of events. I'm not sure why there is the need for all this distraction.Regards...jmcc
Cordially, Scofflaw.0 -
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RandomName2 wrote: »Damn remind me if I'm ever in trouble not to reach out to Varadkar!
Well he seemingly always delivers.
I believe he did it to try avoid any loss of support for himself and FG. Why else would he leak a confidential document? He could have told his pal, hold on a day or two it should be released soon. He could have said no.0 -
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James Brown wrote: »If ever I'm under criminal investigation I'll be sure to tell the Garda that.
The nod and wink culture of Irish politics we were supposed to see the end of in Enda's great vision and promise.1
This discussion has been closed.
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