Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

RandomName2

James Brown wrote: »

Well he seemingly always delivers.

Said the Fine Gael fanboy. Who was a friend of Varadkar's. Sounds to me like he was trying to win over his audience.

James Brown wrote: »

I believe he did it to try avoid any loss of support for himself and FG. Why else would he leak a confidential document?

Because he wanted to encourage a less hostile response by NAGP to the agreement? That is, in fact, the stated reason. Getting general GP support for the GP agreement would ultimately be a win for Fine Gael.

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

Said the Fine Gael fanboy. Who was a friend of Varadkar's. Sounds to me like he was trying to win over his audience.



Because he wanted to encourage a less hostile response by NAGP to the agreement? That is, in fact, the stated reason. Getting general GP support for the GP agreement would ultimately be a win for Fine Gael.

I'm basing my opinion on the conversation they had. Not the effort at an excuse Varadkar gave.

jmcc

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just got to double check the date this was posted. It would be embarrassing if I was replying to a post from the second page of this thread.

You do seem to be creating strawman arguments and arguing with them rather than with what people post.

The Village Magazine published the original article on Varadkar leaking the confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail in October 2020 and FG has been trying to spin its way out of it ever since. The Village Magazine kept digging while the newspapers and RTE tried hard to ignore the story. FG kept trying to change the narrative and has been claiming that Varadkar leaked the confidential document to his friend in order to get the NAGP onboard.

The problem is that other facts have emerged since then and there has been an FOI request by SF which obained an e-mail by Varadkar where he knew that the agreement was not in the public domain and asked when the IMO would publish it and distribute it to its members. That discredited the spin about the contract/agreement being in the public domain.

Well, maybe you are new to this conversation, and it's your first time posting in this thread.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.

But this has been the stance of Fine Gael since 31st October 2020.

It is mere political spin. The Village Magazine ran the story about Varadkar leaking a confidential document to his friend and FG has on the back foot ever since. It also emerged that Simon Harris, the Minister for Health, was still trying to get a copy of the agreement as late as 17th April 2019.

I've outlined why O'Thuanthail being Varadkar's friend is as relevant as O'Thuanthail's sexuality, in the same way it being sent to O'Thuanthail's office would make this no different from it being sent to his home. The information, and potential harm, is the crux of the matter.

Bringing up the canard of O'Tuathail's sexuality again? How pathetic! It is irrelevant.

The point wasn't about the confidential document being sent to the O'Tuathail's office. It was about it being sent to his home address rather than the NAGP address. Varadkar directly asked O'Tuathail for his home address and, if the timeline is correct, this was before Varadkar even had a the copy of the confidential document as it was waiting in the car for him when he arrived back from Brussels. That emerged in the e-mail obtained by an SF FOI request and quoted in the Irish Examiner article.

What was that threat about?

Go read the Heydon letter. It has been linked on the thread. The letter outlined the effect of NAGP members campaigning against FG in elections.

If he had run out of Leinster House with it bundled under his arm, and pressed into O'Thuanthail's sweaty palms, that would be significantly different from it being sent to his home? Of course not.

Yet another attempt to distract from the facts.

If it had been sent to NAGP office, and addressed personally to O'Thuanthail nothing would be different.

And again.

The facts are that Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail. He asked O'Tuathail for his home address in order to send it directly to O'Tuathail bypassing the NAGP office. That ensured that the leaked confidential document directly reached O'Tuathail instead of running the risk of having been opened by a secretary or other person.

The FOIed e-mail quoted Varadkar as saying that he wanted to read it again. He, Varadkar, did not say that he wanted the document in order to bring NAGP onboard. O'Tuathail tried to get a copy of the document from Simon Harris and failed. He contacted Varadkar and Varadkar obtained a copy of the document for him within hours. If Varadkar was so intent on keeping NAGP in the loop then why didn't he leak/provide previous drafts and details to NAGP directly? The confidential document that Varadkar leaked to his friend was part of a Department of Health negotiation with the IMO and NAGP was not part of that negotiation.

You would be the first to say it would make no difference were that the actual course of events. I'm not sure why there is the need for all this distraction.

You are simply trying, and failing, to distract from the facts. Varadkar, while taoiseach, leaked a confidential document to his friend. Varadkar is now under criminal investigation.

Regards...jmcc

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

Getting general GP support for the GP agreement would ultimately be a win for Fine Gael.

A win for Fine Gael..... Wouldn't a certain act apply there if that's the case?

Nobotty

A political party isn't a person and of course if it was the intention, it spectacularly failed
Next

McMurphy

Nobotty wrote: »

A political party isn't a person

You might need to read the legislation again nobotty, this isn't a "gotcha moment" for you I'm afraid. Here's a hint...... Varadkar (a person) sent it to OTuathail (also a person) to his home address, not to NAGP (not a person) at their business address....

A. Using confidential information obtained in the course of his or her office [and how else can the information here have been obtained?], or doing an act in relation to his or her office, which – “ being more general – “would also cover using confidential information.

B. in either instance it depends on [obtaining an advantage for another person [O Tuathail]. The reaction of the NAGP “inner sanctum” shows they clearly knew they were getting an advantage.

C. that the act was for the purpose of corruptly obtaining the advantage.

Basically covers those sending the information, and those in receipt of it.

and of course if it was the intention, it spectacularly failed
Next

I don't think success or failure of an intention gets someone off with anything. Don't believe me?

Ask anyone doing time for attempted fraud, robbery or murder for starters.

Nobotty

You might want to check the election results again Mc or your nickname for him,was it Leo the 5th? Or remain in cloud cuckoo land
That 'theory' is a huge judge judy laugh out loud moment when compared to the reasoning vradakar gave
Its a presumtion of guilt supposition as opposed to what the law provides for
I do know what you are really at here though,you enjoy needling the Fg'ers
If they're concerned by your last 2 posts or any of this opinion,they'd be stupid

RandomName2

jmcc wrote: »

You do seem to be creating strawman arguments and arguing with them rather than with what people post.

You are simply trying, and failing, to distract from the salient points.

Your straw-men arguments about people refusing to admit that Varadkar leaked.

The repetition, over and over, of aspects relating entirely to optics.

Do you think your argument gets progressively stronger by just repeating the same old line 'Leo leaked a document to a pall.'

jmcc wrote: »

That ensured that the leaked confidential document directly reached O'Tuathail instead of running the risk of having been opened by a secretary or other person.

He sent it to his secretary, who sent it via courier, to O'Thuanthai's house. I don't think.. that needs any further counterargument. Not that that point had any real substance to it anyway, as you are using it to distract.

jmcc wrote: »

Go read the Heydon letter. It has been linked on the thread. The letter outlined the effect of NAGP members campaigning against FG in elections.

Buzz buzz. You bringing up this, again? I've already discussed Goodey's letter. If you have anything further to add, or want to counter any of the points I have already made on that matter, go ahead. You are just trying to distract, and repeat the same soundbites.

All this, same old, same old, rehash rehash.

It's not October 2020, it's.. it's April 1st 2021.

April 1st. Oh sorry jmcc, thought you were seriously contending that that was an argument you were advancing, didn't realize this was just a wind up.

Sad to see Leo quitting politics and returning to medicine in the US with his partner. I wish him well anyway.

RandomName2

Nobotty wrote: »

You might want to check the election results again Mc or your nickname for him,was it Leo the 5th? Or remain in cloud cuckoo land
That 'theory' is a huge judge judy laugh out loud moment when compared to the reasoning vradakar gave
Its a presumtion of guilt supposition as opposed to what the law provides for
I do know what you are really at here though,you enjoy needling the Fg'ers
If they're concerned by your last 2 posts or any of this opinion,they'd be stupid

The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.

skimpydoo

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad to see Leo quitting politics and returning to medicine in the US with his partner. I wish him well anyway.

That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

RandomName2

skimpydoo wrote: »

That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

But.. there's no getting away from the fact that Leo leaked a document to his pal.

Sorry, just wanted to apply the default, brain-dead contribution that's usually seen in this thread (which I am henceforth naming 'the echo rebuttal').

Fann Linn

RandomName2 wrote: »

But.. there's no getting away from the fact that Leo leaked a document to his pal.

Sorry, just wanted to apply the default contribution usually seen in this thread (which I am henceforth naming 'the echo rebuttal').

Well he did apologise for it.

jmcc

RandomName2 wrote: »

The repetition, over and over, of aspects relating entirely to optics.

No. Those are the facts. You've been repeatedly trying to distract people from the facts of what happened. Perhaps you don't want to see Varadkar charged and the fallout that will affect FG and, perhaps, make FF look good by comparison.

Regards...jmcc

RandomName2

jmcc wrote: »

No. Those are the facts. You've been repeatedly trying to distract people from the facts of what happened. Perhaps you don't want to see Varadkar charged and the fallout that will affect FG and, perhaps, make FF look good by comparison.

Regards...jmcc

This post contributes noting. Zip.

There's the echo rebuttal, but there's also the meta distraction. The two are interconnected.

'Hey stop distracting. Did you know leo leaked a document. Stop distracting. Leo leaked a document. Why do you keep trying to distract me? Leo leaked a document to a pal. All the time you are trying to distract people from the fact leo leaked a document to a close friend of his.'

Back what feels like a hundred pages ago I called this white noise. Clearly it is meant to avoid discussion, or deep analysis.

I say 'What did NAGP stand to gain?'
'Stop distracting. Leo leaked a document'

Over and over again. Anytime the discussion gets difficult you veer away from it, dragging up old points, going back in circles, bringing the conversation back 5 months.

And it's not just you. It's most of your side in the debate (well not really debate 'he apologized. He leaked a document to a pal. Close friend. Very close friend. His house. Pal. Leaked. Leo. Document. Pal. Leaked'

Well if you are not prepared to actually debate the matter, then I suppose that is adieu for now.

_Kaiser_

skimpydoo wrote: »

That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

It's more like wishful thinking, or it'd be the best thing he could ever do for the country.

For that latter reason alone it couldn't be real!

jmcc

RandomName2 wrote: »

This post contributes noting. Zip.

As usual, your post is just pompous verbosity that seeks to distract people from the facts. Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail. This action is now the subject of a criminal investigation.

You may want to relive your glory days of secondary school debating but this is a very serious issue for Varadkar, O'Tuathail and FG.

*plonk*

Regards...jmcc

Jim Root

It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going

Jim Root

Jim Root wrote: »

It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going

Lot of emotional effort and time has gone into it,
Jim. The long hours and the hard slog. Time will tell, but I get the feeling they are going to be disappointed.

Nobotty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Lot of emotional effort and time has gone into it,
Jim. The long hours and the hard slog. Time will tell, but I get the feeling they are going to be disappointed.

Well one side will be
The other will be going hahaha
This thread is just another tit for tat playground

James Brown

McMurphy wrote: »

A win for Fine Gael..... Wouldn't a certain act apply there if that's the case?

That's exactly what Varadkar was at.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad to see Leo quitting politics and returning to medicine in the US with his partner. I wish him well anyway.

I'm not sure he will escape extradition.

James Brown

Jim Root wrote: »

It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going

We get lads constantly denying the facts. Mind it can be entertaining. My favourite was 'what's confidential?' and the idea Leo was doing it for the common good

RandomName2

James Brown wrote: »

That's exactly what Varadkar was at.

The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.

RandomName2

What did NAGP stand to gain?

jmcc wrote: »

Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail.

Why do you keep saying that

jmcc wrote: »

As usual, your post is just pompous verbosity that seeks to distract people from the facts.

Are you going to discuss this?

jmcc wrote: »

You may want to relive your glory days of secondary school debating but this is a very serious issue for Varadkar, O'Tuathail and FG.

skimpydoo

skimpydoo wrote: »

That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

SOHBP!

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.

We can only go on the evidence. There's the 'means' issue and the whatsapp conversation, where at least to me it's obvious what the motivation was.
Of course that's for the Garda to officially deduce.

I've little interest and put even less weight into any theories outside of that.

Yes, you are creating theories and adding surmising and then knocking it as 'horse manure'. Fair enough. I wouldn't bother.

Nobotty

James Brown wrote: »

That's exactly what Varadkar was at.

In your opinion
Conjecture isnt enough for a crime especially from political oponents
Its not enough to demonstrate that he wanted to look good for getting the contract over the line with all gps not just IMO gp's
Not by a shot longer than from here to Australia
Repeating a party line over and over in the face of a more benign and plausible explanation from Vradakar himself is chocolate tea pot territory to me
There are more worthy issues to drive nails with
But hey ho,like the funerals obsession on tbe other thread,I've no powers to get people to switch tack
Tit for Tat

skimpydoo

Deleted User wrote: »

SOHBP!

??

McMurphy

RandomName2 wrote: »

What did NAGP stand to gain?

Are you seriously going to say you aren't aware zero craic said

he wanted to “destroy” the IMO and to take “the wind out of their sails”