Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

Bannasidhe

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Very strange response..... care to expand on it a bit.

Did you spot the little lads around ‘ culpable’ .

Couldn’t think of a better word at the time.

Couldn't you think of a better word than everyone either?

Everyone includes the victims Brendan.

Were they culpable?

Twice in your post you said 'everyone'.
For a fella who likes to split hairs when it suits your agenda I am simply pointing out that you may wish to rethink your claim that everyone was culpable as that's an 'interesting' take on the incarceration of thousands of women and children.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Just asking questions?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

It is becoming increasingly infuriating to be routinely lied about in this way.

Invent an emotive/sensational point of view for a poster, then criticise them for it. Several posters engage in this.

blanch152

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

When I say ‘everybody’ Francie , I mean is that ‘society’ and the ethos of the time allowed this stuff to happen.

The conditions which allowed these actions to occur were accepted in the society which existed at the time.

You must understand that what was completely normal and accepted in different eras would not be tolerated or accepted in today’s society.

There are numerous examples of this over the decades and to hang the ‘blame’ on a particular coterie, whilst accepting that some played a bigger part than others is frankly foolish.

Do you think that all the stuff which we accept and treat as normal today will be all accepted as normal in 2031 or 2041.

Go way out a that Francie and take off the auld wind-swept goggles off yersel.

You are absolutely correct there Brendan.

In the Middle Ages, women were burned at the stake for being witches. Was that acceptable? No, of course it isn't.

However, it was a normal facet of society at the time. Whether you say it was accepted by society or accepted by everyone is only language, the principle is the same. Attitudes to homosexuality, minorities, nationalist violence etc. as well as women have also changed and matured over the years. Society deemed it acceptable in 1916 to deny women the vote, and society deemed it acceptable in 1921 to fight wars for independence. Those attitudes changed over the decades since, and what was acceptable back then, isn't acceptable now, or even in more recent decades.

Any discussion that fails to take account of changing mores and morals is a discussion that fails.

RandomName2

Marine Layer wrote: »

No evidence so? Just blaze statements applying today's standards to decades ago

I'd kind of say you're both wrong, although Francie getting all soapboxy about it is distracting.

I think it is legitimate to apply morality to people within the last 100 years using modern standards. The abuses of the Catholic Church should have been obvious to any decent person as being immoral.

Someone said that the status quo in relation to the Church, and the stultifying nature of Irish society in general, was accepted by the general populace.

This sadly is true, but doesn't actually absolve political leaders of responsibility. It is also unfortunately the case that a strong stance against the Church would probably have had negative electoral repercussions. Nevertheless this doesn't remove the fact that the morally right thing to do would have been to adopt a stance that may have had negative political repercussions (ala Noel Browne).

This specific issue got raised mainly because of the wild flailing which included the Spanish Civil War and Tory party as reasons why FG is an apparently evil party, or as skimpydoo put it 'everybody was in the wrong. All parties have skeletons in their cupboards'.

It's interesting that this same idea that 'let bygones be bygones. Everybody was in the wrong' is being forgotten about in relation to Ireland and the Catholic Church (because this exact issue is being used as invective against Fianna Fail and Fine Gael), but you'd be a fool if you didn't expect at least some hypocrisy. Hypocrisy in the same way that conflating Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, or Labour and the Stickies (really?) is used as a stock way of describing some of the parties here, but the same people doing this would balk at the sloppy terminology of SF-IRA. It's useful in this particular context as Fine Gael was, and still is, relatively hostile to the Catholic Church, but that wouldn't be useful for them in their use of this red herring.

Anyway

It's like describing a journalist as Varadkar's hagiographer in order to avoid discussing something. Ad hominem is a markedly worse tactic than just throwing mud until some of it sticks. In fact, it is fascinating to see the same individual use one news story as an opportunity for invective, while bats away another news story from the exact same paper as just being the product of Fine Gael puppets being used to distract from the other story. Fascinating mental leaps there.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Just asking questions?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

This post is technically just asking a question. :pac:

I think your side would be wise not to highlight discussion derailment to be honest.

Gish gallops has been employed in this thread a number of times, with the asker ignoring the answers, as they were never interested in the answers in the first place.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely correct there Brendan.

In the Middle Ages, women were burned at the stake for being witches. Was that acceptable? No, of course it isn't.

However, it was a normal facet of society at the time. Whether you say it was accepted by society or accepted by everyone is only language, the principle is the same. Attitudes to homosexuality, minorities, nationalist violence etc. as well as women have also changed and matured over the years. Society deemed it acceptable in 1916 to deny women the vote, and society deemed it acceptable in 1921 to fight wars for independence. Those attitudes changed over the decades since, and what was acceptable back then, isn't acceptable now, or even in more recent decades.

Any discussion that fails to take account of changing mores and morals is a discussion that fails.

Yet the Commission found that Dept of Health inspectors doggedly highlighted overcrowding, the criminal lack of medical training and antenatal care as well as the high rate of infant mortality, yet were ignored and downplayed.

Were those inspectors from the future or something? They could see it and see it was wrong.

You guys, routine defenders of FG FF, are still downplaying and doggedly evading responsibility.

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely correct there Brendan.

In the Middle Ages, women were burned at the stake for being witches. Was that acceptable? No, of course it isn't.

However, it was a normal facet of society at the time. Whether you say it was accepted by society or accepted by everyone is only language, the principle is the same. Attitudes to homosexuality, minorities, nationalist violence etc. as well as women have also changed and matured over the years. Society deemed it acceptable in 1916 to deny women the vote, and society deemed it acceptable in 1921 to fight wars for independence. Those attitudes changed over the decades since, and what was acceptable back then, isn't acceptable now, or even in more recent decades.

Any discussion that fails to take account of changing mores and morals is a discussion that fails.

Any discussion that claims 'everyone' was culpable in cases where either the State or Religious authorities (or quite often both working in concert) were directly involved in the prosecutions of countless victims is a) ignoring the fact that the victims formed part of these societies and b) displaying either their utter lack of understanding of history or shamelessly using past atrocities to defend current incompetence.

No - 'everyone' were not culpable - in exactly the same way as 'we' did all not party. Claiming otherwise is a frankly pathetic trope designed to try and let those in authority off the hook.

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Any discussion that claims 'everyone' was culpable in cases where either the State or Religious authorities (or quite often both working in concert) were directly involved in the prosecutions of countless victims is a) ignoring the fact that the victims formed part of these societies and b) displaying either their utter lack of understanding of history or shamelessly using past atrocities to defend current incompetence.

No - 'everyone' were not culpable - in exactly the same way as 'we' did all not party. Claiming otherwise is a frankly pathetic trope designed to try and let those in authority off the hook.

Those in authority only get there because society allows and tolerates them to hold that authority. Blaming those in authority is the easiest way to excuse others from their faults.

ohnonotgmail

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'd kind of say you're both wrong, although Francie getting all soapboxy about it is distracting.

I think it is legitimate to apply morality to people within the last 100 years using modern standards. The abuses of the Catholic Church should have been obvious to any decent person as being immoral.

Someone said that the status quo in relation to the Church, and the stultifying nature of Irish society in general, was accepted by the general populace.

This sadly is true, but doesn't actually absolve political leaders of responsibility. It is also unfortunately the case that a strong stance against the Church would probably have had negative electoral repercussions. Nevertheless this doesn't remove the fact that the morally right thing to do would have been to adopt a stance that may have had negative political repercussions (ala Noel Browne).

This specific issue got raised mainly because of the wild flailing which included the Spanish Civil War and Tory party as reasons why FG is an apparently evil party, or as skimpydoo put it 'everybody was in the wrong. All parties have skeletons in their cupboards'.

It's interesting that this same idea that 'let bygones be bygones. Everybody was in the wrong' is being forgotten about in relation to Ireland and the Catholic Church (because this exact issue is being used as invective against Fianna Fail and Fine Gael), but you'd be a fool if you didn't expect at least some hypocrisy. Hypocrisy in the same way that conflating Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, or Labour and the Stickies (really?) is used as a stock way of describing some of the parties here, but the same people doing this would balk at the sloppy terminology of SF-IRA. It's useful in this particular context as Fine Gael was, and still is, relatively hostile to the Catholic Church, but that wouldn't be useful for them in their use of this red herring.

Anyway

It's like describing a journalist as Varadkar's hagiographer in order to avoid discussing something. Ad hominem is a markedly worse tactic than just throwing mud until some of it sticks. In fact, it is fascinating to see the same individual use one news story as an opportunity for invective, while bats away another news story from the exact same paper as just being the product of Fine Gael puppets being used to distract from the other story. Fascinating mental leaps there.



This post is technically just asking a question. :pac:

I think your side would be wise not to highlight discussion derailment to be honest.

Gish gallops has been employed in this thread a number of times, with the asker ignoring the answers, as they were never interested in the answers in the first place.

my side? what side would that be? what side would you be? Is there a list somewhere?

markodaly

jmcc wrote: »

O'Toole was interviewed on April 5th. Varadkar was interviewed on April 9th. The story about them being interviewed was published on April 18th. Between April 9th and April 18th, Varadkar's hagiographer was banging the drum about SF's electoral register database.

Regards...jmcc

Oh the hilarity.

So, Leo and MOT were interviewed about a leak and you are now giving out that the Gardai themselves didn't leak the fact that they were interviewed.... sooner?

Brilliant!

markodaly

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Have we managed to pin the entire existence of Mother & Baby homes on Varadkar yet?

My thoughts exactly....
Why are we talking about Tuam and the M&B in this thread?

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

Those in authority only get there because society allows and tolerates them to hold that authority. Blaming those in authority is the easiest way to excuse others from their faults.

On the contrary.
Those in authority get away with committing abuses because there is a vocal cohort within society that shuts down any criticism or attempts at enforcing accountability.

The Nothing To See Here Brigade are the part of society responsible - the victims are the part of society that pays the price.

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

On the contrary.
Those in authority get away with committing abuses because there is a vocal cohort within society that shuts down any criticism or attempts at enforcing accountability.

The Nothing To See Here Brigade are the part of society responsible - the victims are the part of society that pays the price.

Hammer connects with nail.

RandomName2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

my side? what side would that be? what side would you be? Is there a list somewhere?

There tends to be a binary opposition here. I haven't kept tabs on this thread for several weeks so I don't actually know if you are in a particular camp (just made an assumption). Apologies if it isn't the case.

markodaly wrote: »

My thoughts exactly....
Why are we talking about Tuam and the M&B in this thread?

I explain this above. It's the Nothing to See Here Look Over There Brigade.

Necro

Marine Layer and FrancieBrady, stick each other on ignore if you can't post in a civil manner towards each other. Everyone else, back on topic please

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Couldn't you think of a better word than everyone either?

Everyone includes the victims Brendan.

Were they culpable?

Twice in your post you said 'everyone'.
For a fella who likes to split hairs when it suits your agenda I am simply pointing out that you may wish to rethink your claim that everyone was culpable as that's an 'interesting' take on the incarceration of thousands of women and children.

I take your point but I would have though most adult people would have understood the point i was making.

Things evolve, things move on, let’s behave like adults and do likewise.

Bubbaclaus

In a, probably futile, attempt to bring the thread back on topic to Varadkar, I see he topped the latest approval ratings of the main parties (3 Government parties + largest opposition).

https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1383566088470888452?s=19

It would be interesting to see where other party leaders came out, complicated of course by the parties that do not have a specific leader.

Johnthemanager

blanch152 wrote: »

Those in authority only get there because society allows and tolerates them to hold that authority. Blaming those in authority is the easiest way to excuse others from their faults.

A couple of masks slipping today!!

Necro

Up At Fleecies wrote: »

*mod snip*

I'll get it though , don't worry it'll come to me!

Threadbanned

Bannasidhe

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I take your point but I would have though most adult people would have understood the point i was making.

Things evolve, things move on, let’s behave like adults and do likewise.

I understood entirely the point you were making which is - everyone was responsible.
This is incorrect. The people who carried out abuses and those who enabled them to do so were responsible.
The victims, who were also members of society, were in no way, shape, or form responsible but it suits your narrative to paint them as 'culpable'.

Yes, let's behave like adults and call those in authority to account for their actions and request that those who turn a blind eye to abuses of power do likewise.

'Adulting' is not blaming the victims or trying to change the subject when your agenda are challenged. I'm thoroughly in favour of it.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hammer connects with nail.

Bit of a change from where you were hanging everything on FFFG.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bit of a change from where you were hanging everything on FFFG.

Another complete misrepresentation.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

In a, probably futile, attempt to bring the thread back on topic to Varadkar, I see he topped the latest approval ratings of the main parties (3 Government parties + largest opposition).

https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1383566088470888452?s=19

It would be interesting to see where other party leaders came out, complicated of course by the parties that do not have a specific leader.

Not one bit surprised that Leo is the most popular of the leaders. Not much competition to be fair. This #Leotheleak stuff is really just confined to a select pool of zombies on twitter.

Brendan Bendar

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Not one bit surprised that Leo is the most popular of the leaders. Not much competition to be fair. This #Leotheleak stuff is really just confined to a select pool of zombies on twitter.

This place is infested with them too.

FrancieBrady

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Not one bit surprised that Leo is the most popular of the leaders. Not much competition to be fair. This #Leotheleak stuff is really just confined to a select pool of zombies on twitter.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

This place is infested with them too.

The Tanaiste and former Taoiseach of the country was questioned for several hours by the Gardai and had his phone confiscated and now has had a file on his activity sent to the DPP for consideration.

The people desperately trying to downplay that since the get go are the zombies I would think.

How many Tanaiste has that happened to, do youse reckon?

My name is URL

See post 9082 you are threadbanned

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I understood entirely the point you were making which is - everyone was responsible.
This is incorrect. The people who carried out abuses and those who enabled them to do so were responsible.
The victims, who were also members of society, were in no way, shape, or form responsible but it suits your narrative to paint them as 'culpable'.

Yes, let's behave like adults and call those in authority to account for their actions and request that those who turn a blind eye to abuses of power do likewise.

'Adulting' is not blaming the victims or trying to change the subject when your agenda are challenged. I'm thoroughly in favour of it.

Adulting is not deliberately ‘misunderstanding’ my point of view either.

Bannasidhe

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Adulting is not deliberately ‘misunderstanding’ my point of view either.

I have 'misunderstood' nothing.
You stated, twice, that everyone was culpable for abuses carried out by agents of the Church and State acting in concert.

When this was queried you feigned confusion over the use of the word 'culpable' pointing out the 'wee lads' which apparently indicated you were having difficulty finding the correct term for 'guilty/involved/up to their necks in it'. A frankly tired attempt at deflecting from a query that clearly questioned your used of the word everyone, and your implicit blaming of victims of State/Church abuse due to everyone being complicit.

You were throwing out the 'we all partied' trope so beloved of those in authority when their utter failure to protect citizens - from among other things sexual/financial abuses - is pointed out. A trope echoed loudly by the Nothing to See Here defenders of the indefensible.

Nothing was 'misunderstood' Brendan. You were heard loud and clear.

I await the 'we all leak things' posts.

When you get down to the 'points of order' stage then you know the story is finished.

There's a very fruity story about the body politic going to emerge in the next few weeks. It ain't this one though.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have 'misunderstood' nothing.
You stated, twice, that everyone was culpable for abuses carried out by agents of the Church and State acting in concert.

When this was queried you feigned confusion over the use of the word 'culpable' pointing out the 'wee lads' which apparently indicated you were having difficulty finding the correct term for 'guilty/involved/up to their necks in it'. A frankly tired attempt at deflecting from a query that clearly questioned your used of the word everyone, and your implicit blaming of victims of State/Church abuse due to everyone being complicit.

You were throwing out the 'we all partied' trope so beloved of those in authority when their utter failure to protect citizens - from among other things sexual/financial abuses - is pointed out. A trope echoed loudly by the Nothing to See Here defenders of the indefensible.

Nothing was 'misunderstood' Brendan. You were heard loud and clear.

I await the 'we all leak things' posts.

In case of repeating myself, what in gods name has this to do with the thread?
Nothing? Oh right....

Gremlinertia

Thread dragged Off Topic yet again. Last warning, threadbans for next OT post