Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

Loafing Oaf

caveat emptor wrote: »

Jaysus his own coming out against him and referencing his double speak.

What do you mean? The tweet is about the Tories

Plumbthedepths

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

What do you mean? The tweet is about the Tories

I would imagine Leo's hypocrisy is what the poster is suggesting and he's right.

Jim Root

boombang wrote: »

RTE Radio One's This Week are covering the issue, but the news bulletin beforehand made no mention of it. I continue to be unimpressed by RTE.

There’s a detailed article on the website with fresh quotes from various people this morning.

jammiedodgers

Amazing how PintmanPaddy reels everyone in everytime.

Nobotty

Fann Linn wrote: »

But it wasn't in the hands of GPs, Public or the opposition if we're to go by Donnelly's address to the Dail.

I've not much confidence in that guy,I think he's a spoofer
You can be very sure that the IMO were discussing the agreement that they agreed with their members
At that point it was no longer a secret

Better practice by the way in my opinion would have been to take everything down to the nitty gritty out of the agreement and send that under separate cover to Maitu o Tuatail requesting him to lobby his membership with it
I'll bet that's what we'll hear Tuesday

Jim Root

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Leo's bona fides in any future negotiations will be questioned. He simply cannot be trusted.

Yeah, whatever about surviving this, find it hard to see him as the top dog again. FG need to keep in situ for the moment tho I suspect.

caveat emptor

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

What do you mean? The tweet is about the Tories

Sorry I thought it was about him. I didn’t realise. It was in my feed, presumed it was a comment on his language. I’ll edit post to reflect that.

Signore Fancy Pants

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I'm really surprised at the levels of outrage on this?

The document he shared wasn't sensitive. He didn't gain, financially or otherwise, from sharing it. It wasn't best practice or the appropriate channel to share, but at the end of the day, most of the information was public at that stage.

People really think he needs to resign over this? Ha!

The only reason you are surprised is because you don't understand security classification of documents, including who is authorised to compile, produce, disseminate and recieve them.

The fact that your understanding of wrongdoing is limited to if LV financially benefitted or not. Also, your determination that the document "wasn't sensitive" is wrong. If it wasn't sensitive, it wouldnt have been security classified.

Official documents range from Unclassified, Restricted, Confidential, Secret to Top Secret. A Confidential document has a high security classification.

The wider issue rests with LV. While this is a singualr incident, it puts into doubt all documents of interest which LV has had access to which come under the Official Secrets Act.

As Taoiseach, LV would have sat on the National Security Committee. A breach of the Official Secrets Act on any level discredits him completely.

He now cannot be trusted and a full investigation is warranted...regardless if you agree or not.

walshb

Leo showed incredibly poor judgment here...I mean, he was our Taoiseach, not some novice councillor or first time TD...

I think this could grow legs..

Quite inappropriate behaviour from someone be who should be displaying nothing but the highest of standards and ethics.

Remember Leo’s take on the Denis Naughten affair?

omega man

Perhaps I’m not up to speed but was this not simply a negotiated government/union deal document? It’s not exactly classified state secrets...
Also my experience in the private sector is that both sides regularly leak information during and post negotiations.
From a legal perspective does stamping “confidential”and/or “not for circulation” actually have any status in itself?

Fann Linn

Nobotty wrote: »

I've not much confidence in that guy,I think he's a spoofer
You can be very sure that the IMO were discussing the agreement that they agreed with their members
At that point it was no longer a secret

Better practice by the way in my opinion would have been to take everything down to the nitty gritty out of the agreement and send that under separate cover to Maitu o Tuatail requesting him to lobby his membership with it
I'll bet that's what we'll hear Tuesday

I've no time either for Donnelly but surely when he asked those questions in DE on 19 April 2019 the obvious reply was that the deal WAS in public knowledge.

However it wasn't and on 17 May 2019 it was released. Almost a full month later.

I really hope the Shinners and Kelly from LP are getting their ducks in a row here and go out and nail him.

Come to think of it Kelly has been very quiet since this broke, wonder if he has more info.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

The only reason you are surprised is because you don't understand security classification of documents, including who is authorised to compile, produce, disseminate and recieve them.

The fact that your understanding of wrongdoing is limited to if LV financially benefitted or not. Also, your determination that the document "wasn't sensitive" is wrong. If it wasn't sensitive, it wouldnt have been security classified.

Official documents range from Unclassified, Restricted, Confidential, Secret to Top Secret. A Confidential document has a high security classification.

The wider issue rests with LV. While this is a singualr incident, it puts into doubt all documents of interest which LV has had access to which come under the Official Secrets Act.

As Taoiseach, LV would have sat on the National Security Committee. A breach of the Official Secrets Act on any level discredits him completely.

He now cannot be trusted and a full investigation is warranted...regardless if you agree or not.

Hahaha! Top Secret. Watching too many Hollywood films bucko!

The document was published a few weeks later. Clearly it wasn't sensitive.

Plumbthedepths

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Hahaha! Top Secret. Watching too many Hollywood films bucko!

The document was published a few weeks later. Clearly it wasn't sensitive.

During negotiations a document is sensitive, afterwards most likely no longer sensitive.
Genuine question are you being serious or trolling?

AndrewJRenko

Nobotty wrote: »

I've not much confidence in that guy,I think he's a spoofer
You can be very sure that the IMO were discussing the agreement that they agreed with their members
At that point it was no longer a secret

Better practice by the way in my opinion would have been to take everything down to the nitty gritty out of the agreement and send that under separate cover to Maitu o Tuatail requesting him to lobby his membership with it
I'll bet that's what we'll hear Tuesday

Why would the Taoiseach be interfering in a contract being managed by his Minister/Department of Health?

Nobotty wrote: »

But we don't know if he was or not
I'm sure we'll know more on Tuesday


I'm not desperate to play down any leak
I think we should get to the bottom of them
Leaks and the infamous Leo the leak twitter tag refers to leaking to newspapers or media
This is clearly different
My posts by the way have mainly been questioning the certainty some of you have about Vradakar breaking the law
There is no certainty on that
In fact I haven't seen anything to prove that at all
A document already in the possession of members of the public ie gp's or their families who are not civil servants,employed by the government or the cabinet and widely bullet pointed to members of the IMO is not a state secret or a cabinet document
I'll add another thing,how many times has anyone found the first empty document folder around their desk to send something on to someone? I know I have several times
So the folder mightnt be related to the document at all

These are all simple flaws in the gung ho sack him posts I'm reading here
Imagine what a legal team would say
By the way,I'm also wondering whats the legal position of posters here repeating currently unsubstantiated allegations from the village here?
Its probably not sound
Anyway looking forward to Tuesday now for the crack in the Dáil and may get at least 2 good nights sleep in readiness for it and the super exciting election night in the States

We know he didn't do anything to communicate with the 40% of GPs not in any organisation, so his suggestion that it was all about bringing GPs on board doesn't really stand up.

Fann Linn

omega man wrote: »

Perhaps I’m not up to speed but was this not simply a negotiated government/union deal document? It’s not exactly classified state secrets...
Also my experience in the private sector is that both sides regularly leak information during and post negotiations.
From a legal perspective does stamping “confidential”and/or “not for circulation” actually have any status in itself?

So you see no problem with posting leaks to third parties in contract talks?

IAMAMORON

It will be a good test of his resolve this week. Let us see how he scraps it out, I am looking forward to it personally.

Cards on the table here, I am not a Leo hater. But I cannot help feel that the carelessness of his connections and the lack of loyalty they have shown him is alarming. I would like to think that in future he will manage to see through ambitious dweebs like Matt Tool. I never liked him anyway. There is nothing worse than a leaky ship and the biggest black mark I am giving Leo is not being cute enough to spot the parasite. The naughty step beckons and I would say Coveney has a spring in his step this morning. His time may not be coming soon, but he is further up the mountain.

On a more positive note it will be great to see the back of Matt Tool. What a slimeball.

For everyone, left right and center, don't ever forget that you should be careful who you trust because when you are trusting someone you are also trusting everyone else that they are trusting, getting that wrong can prove costly after a while.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

During negotiations a document is sensitive, afterwards most likely no longer sensitive.
Genuine question are you being serious or trolling?

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

RandomViewer

omega man wrote: »

Perhaps I’m not up to speed but was this not simply a negotiated government/union deal document? It’s not exactly classified state secrets...
Also my experience in the private sector is that both sides regularly leak information during and post negotiations.
From a legal perspective does stamping “confidential”and/or “not for circulation” actually have any status in itself?

It's a bit windy out there to be p1ssing against it,

Pintman Paddy Losty

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

It could have been used by the NAGP to undermine the IMO. Ergo sensitive.

omega man

Fann Linn wrote: »

So you see no problem with posting leaks to third parties in contract talks?

I didn’t say that! I said it happens all time, particularly to the media. It’s nothing new with respect to union negotiations.

RandomViewer

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

So all Dobby and Cerberus deals will be free to view from this moment on?

Fann Linn

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

But they weren't. Leo had actually written himself on the cover, subject to change etc

There's a link from Twitter a few pages back.

omega man

RandomViewer wrote: »

It's a bit windy out there to be p1ssing against it,

I only asked some questions but thanks for the smart ass response.

FunLover18

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

Then why did he scrawl "subject to amendments/change" in big writing across the top.

caveat emptor

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It will be a good test of his resolve this week. Let us see how he scraps it out, I am looking forward to it personally.

Cards on the table here, I am not a Leo hater. But I cannot help feel that the carelessness of his connections and the lack of loyalty they have shown him is alarming. I would like to think that in future he will manage to see through ambitious dweebs like Matt Tool. I never liked him anyway. There is nothing worse than a leaky ship and the biggest black mark I am giving Leo is not being cute enough to spot the parasite. The naughty step beckons and I would say Coveney has a spring in his step this morning. His time may not be coming soon, but he is further up the mountain.

On a more positive note it will be great to see the back of Matt Tool. What a slimeball.

For everyone, left right and center, don't ever forget that you should be careful who you trust because when you are trusting someone you are also trusting everyone else that they are trusting, getting that wrong can prove costly after a while.

All pretty accurate. That’s why the mafia have omertà. Nips it in the bud. Guess they didn’t go through that ritual.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

Mate....hes admitted to taking confidential documents off his desk and handing em out to 3rd parties


His reputation is in tatters

irishproduce

Can someone tell me what the subtext is here.
Genuine question. I'm probably missing something but would appreciate even a one liner, what's the underlying "sting" here.

IMO were negotiating with the govt.
NAGP which had lots of members who walked out of IMO to this new union, were not included in the negotiations.
IMO and gov, agree deal.
Leo gives a copy to the NAGP leader.

All seems innocent enough folly. But I'm well aware there is something nefarious of concern here. Something that isn't said but is being poked at and will be poked at in the dail to find the answer "professionally".

What am I missing?
Appreciate it

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

All pretty accurate. That’s why the mafia have omertà. Nips it in the bud.

Only way 3 people can keep a secret,is of 2 of em are dead

twowheelsonly

CruelSummer wrote: »

He’s such an upstanding citizen of this country, encouraging protestors to barricade in Joan Burton into a Garda car and all sorts of non peaceful ‘protests’, I wonder did he support people protesting outside Simon Harris’ house when they had a new baby.

He was never mentioned in any reports nor pictured at that protest. Why would you even throw that in there other than to muddy the waters ?

Poor effort at deflection. 1/10

omega man wrote: »

Perhaps I’m not up to speed but was this not simply a negotiated government/union deal document? It’s not exactly classified state secrets...
Also my experience in the private sector is that both sides regularly leak information during and post negotiations.
From a legal perspective does stamping “confidential”and/or “not for circulation” actually have any status in itself?

Any government document with such stamps is by default considered to be subject to the Official Secrets Act.

I know that if I had even disclosed the contents of such a document yesterday (not to mind actually sending on the full document) I would be unemployed today. If a lowly Civil Servant would be sacked for such a breach then it follows that Senior Civil Servants and all Public Servants should be in the same boat. If he doesn't go then he has just handed everybody else a 'Get Out Of Jail' card.

Plumbthedepths

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The negotiations were over. Ergo not sensitive.

Was the document confidential ?