Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

Suckit · 24-01-2022 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526355#Comment_118526355

1. It was a contract, not a negotiation document

Don't let Leo hear you saying that.

Brucie Bonus · 24-01-2022 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527961#Comment_118527961

It was a published government document, then it wasn't confidential, then it wasn't a government document at all. Then it was a done deal. Now its a note on a Supermac's paper bag :)

Whatever works for Leo on the day.

24-01-2022 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527961#Comment_118527961

Why? If one wants to be really pedantic it wasn't a contract untill the people who it was aimed at started signing

Prior, colloquially it could be called many things including a contract

All immaterial

Suckit · 24-01-2022 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528110#Comment_118528110

The post I quoted says it was a contract. Leo says it wasn't (previously said it was) and you're saying it's both.

https://vocaroo.com/11m6Y6TPLxCd

We should all be referring to the time it was shared. It is also relevant as to what it was to become/what it became, but when discussing the time of the leak, what it was then.

What you are suggesting is that we can name it what it was at any given time. Can we go back as far as when the paper it was written on, was a tree?

RandomName2 · 25-01-2022 1:24am

Just a quick summary

It was already established that the GP contract was already concluded with IMO.
In fact, it has been concluded already that the IMO exercised a monopoly in relation to the contract as the government deliberately froze NAGP out of the negotiations.
It has already been established that NAGP had nothing to gain as an organisation from the details of the GP contract.
It has been established that NAGP as an organisation had been starved of funding and was close to bankruptcy by the time it saw the GP contract.
It has not been established whether or not the NAGP could significantly harm or hinder Fine Gael if they decided to campaign for or against them among its members and patients. However it has been proven that NAGP remained hostile to Fine Gael after receiving the GP contract.
It has also been made clear that the readers digest version of the contract was well known in Leinster House at this time.
We all already know that the full unabridged version of the contract was published online by Department of Health, (and is still freely available for anyone to look at), shortly after NAGP received a copy.
Nobody has established if, and to what extent, there were changes between the copy available at the time the NAGP got a copy and the one that was available online.

There was an attempt about 9 months ago to prove that what Varadkar did was illegal, but those that were arguing this seemed to give up and begin trolling after that point.

Now those who are still on this topic have moved the goalposts and are no longer interested in legality, but some nebulous ethical grounds, which at the moment seems to be hung up on debating the definition of what is or is not a contract. Strangely they are also hung up on the definition of confidentiality, which is only relevant if considering something from a legal standpoint. For what it's worth the case for confidentiality fell apart 200 pages ago and moved onto corruption as a new line of attack before that particular position was abandoned.

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 3:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528851#Comment_118528851

Can you show where the contract was concluded when it was leaked? I've not read that.

We've people claiming it wasn't a contract.

We don't know if it was illegal. There is a criminal investigation ongoing.

We have some people saying the government never intended to freeze out the NAGP.

There are articles on how O'Tuathail needed a win as the membership were losing faith and thats why he asked Varadkar. If they were nearing bankruptcy that would add up wouldn't it? O'Tuathail would be looking to save his union.

There was no copy available to the NAGP. They got a leaked copy.

If its illegal, nobody expects Leo to end up in the joy. How the case turns out means little to me. The deed is done. We'll maybe get a 'lessons learned'.

markodaly · 25-01-2022 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528995#Comment_118528995

How the case turns out means little to me

Great!

Maybe then we dont have to talk about the same old talking points every day then?

25-01-2022 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528141#Comment_118528141

Rubbish again

Its status was clarified in a radio interview

No impact

Colloquial used prior

That is all

blanch152 · 25-01-2022 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527952#Comment_118527952

Primary sources always trump secondary sources in any discussion.

Varadkar's words are on the record in the Dail.

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529479#Comment_118529479

Your primary source is the government right? Okay...

I quoted directly from the article. You called that me lying.

blanch152 · 25-01-2022 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531199#Comment_118531199

You misrepresented an article that misquoted Varadkar, his actual words in the Dail proved that.

Your position is effectively that if Leo says "The world is round", and a newspaper says that Leo spoke about whether the world is flat, and you claim that Leo said the world is flat, that you are correct. Essentially that is what happened in this case.

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531282#Comment_118531282

I quoted varadkar from an article.

You have issue with the article but you'd rather get personal. Try stick to the discussion.

I wouldn't put anything past Varadkar he has tweeted and spoken some shite.

blanch152 · 25-01-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528995#Comment_118528995

We have some people saying the government never intended to freeze out the NAGP.

We have a link to where Varadkar said that the government never intended to freeze out the NAGP and in the Government decision promised to keep them involved. This is verified fact.

25-01-2022 4:30pm

I find it amusing that with a straight face,anyone suggests what O'Tuathail got wasn't the same as what was signed up to by the minority of gp's in the IMO and those who were in the disbanded NAGP

It implies the NAGP made changes to the document

Basically anyone coming out with that IS making stuff up

If you've to make stuff up to maintain your case,then your case is in real trouble

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531339#Comment_118531339

That poster seems to disagree. It was a confidential negotiation between the IMO and health department. Why weren't the NAGP there? Why did O'Tuathail need a favour to see it? Doesn't hold water.

blanch152 · 25-01-2022 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531611#Comment_118531611

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2020-11-03/16/

Here we go again.

"We committed, however, to keep the NAGP engaged, involved and informed as to the progress and outcome of negotiations. The then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, informed the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health in February 2019 that while negotiations were with the IMO, "there was a role for the NAGP to play in terms of being consulted and involved". In fact, in a Government memorandum at the start of the talks process in March 2018 the Cabinet was informed that there would be "formal consultation" with the NAGP."

That is the full and final answer. The Government decided to keep the NAGP involved. All Varadkar did wrong was the manner in which he kept them involved.

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532401#Comment_118532401

By leaking a confidential negotiation document upon his friends request. If it was legit he wouldn't have had to do it on the sly. O'Tuathail would have been able to approach the dept of health had they not already allegedly kept them in the loop.

The NAGP wanted to be at the table. Some GPs were members of both organisations and some were members of neither. Ultimately, the Government decided to deal with the IMO alone, as its long-standing negotiating partner and Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, affiliate. The Opposition was very critical of this at the time.

We committed, however, to keep the NAGP engaged, involved and informed as to the progress and outcome of negotiations.

Who's 'we'? And what does 'however' mean in this context? Despite the wishes of government? Harris wasn't party to the leak and he actually was Health Minister. "Informed as to the progress and outcome" is not being privy to the negotiation details is it?

"The government decided to deal with the IMO alone". That's what I quoted. It was directly from the paper. I did not try post out of context. If you've issue it's with the paper.

The IMO is a members organisation. That group was in negotiations not the NAGP. While the outcome might have a bearing on NAGP members, it is why Varadkar had to slip it to his friend on the sly.

You are using vague word play from the culprit to defend his leaking.

When a union is in confidential negotiation with the government I don't believe it's practise to slip a rival union or Marty Whelan a copy of the negotiation document.

blanch152 · 25-01-2022 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532471#Comment_118532471

Would you just look at the convoluted conspiracy theory of a web you are weaving to try and construct any alternative explanation that might convince you that you were somehow correct that the government never wanted the NAGP involved?

The case against Varadkar is as thin as can possibly be.

Brucie Bonus · 25-01-2022 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533000#Comment_118533000

I've questions. My only theory is why he did it, which I believe was to ingratiate himself with the NAGP lobby.

The government decided not to involve the NAGP while involving the NAGP? They were going to keep the NAGP informed but their head had to whatsapp Varadkar to ask for a favour and he had to pass it to his friend on the sly and Harris wasn't aware. All seems legit 😎

The case is not for me to pass judgement on as I am not familiar with the law in that area.

Brendan Bendar · 26-01-2022 9:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533124#Comment_118533124

Over a total of 11000 posts and this comes out!!!

CarProblem · 26-01-2022 1:29pm

Table Tennis.gif

Brucie Bonus · 26-01-2022 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533826#Comment_118533826

You're buying into the party PR. I've mentioned he's under criminal investigation alright. But that's about it. Don't believe the (bot) hype.

Don't bother addressing the comments themselves though...

Faugheen · 26-01-2022 5:12pm

I'm looking forward to the day nothing happens as a result of this (it's a question of morality, not legality) and then everyone claims the Gardai and the government are in cahoots.