Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973386#Comment_118973386

"Is it? I think you'll find it's not illegal to share a confidential document, otherwise it would make it very difficult to produce confidential documents."

Yes it is. Presumably because they keep getting leaked/shared.

"Confidential" in itself implies that they are not to be shared.

Wombatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973336#Comment_118973336

You prove my point. If somebody like yourself, a boards randomer shall we say, who isn't a legal professional I presume, can get to the nub of the matter, then it won't prove to be a complex matter for the professionals working on the case.

It's may become complex if unwarranted or undue influence is brought to bare or if the parties to the matter deliberately obfuscate.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973420#Comment_118973420

All of these things are tangible. Not in the literal, "I have it in my hands" sense, but in the sense that they can be proven to have occurred or existed at some point.

Anyway, this is basically my point.

We can all agree this is a complex matter of debate, and not a simple, "sharing the document makes him guilty" declaration.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973466#Comment_118973466

"Confidential" implies that the audience of the document is to be restricted. I know it seems like I'm splitting hairs here, but this is the whole argument. You can't say that sharing a confidential document is illegal, because it's not. For a start, it's perfectly fine on every level to share a confidential document with people who are entitled to see it. If the audience is not explicitly defined, then any recipient may be permitted to share the document with another if they believe there is a good reason why that person can or should be entitled to see it too.

Outside of that, a document being marked "confidential" may not necessarily make it illegal - i.e. an offence - to share it with other parties. It may be a civil issue.

Nearly every word in the section of the act posted above has a specific meaning, which makes it all hinge on the who, what, how, where and why.

To expect Gardai to understand the nuances not just of this law, but every law, and make determinations as to guilt, is not only unreasonable, it's asking the impossible. This is the very reason that courts and legal professionals exist - to tease out and debate these matters.

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973130#Comment_118973130

Of course Gardai also send files to the DPP that have no conclusion before during or after they're sent, did somebody suggest they don't.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973523#Comment_118973523

"If the audience is not explicitly defined"

From the Cabinet Handbook of the Dept. of the Taoiseach:

2.20 Circulation of Government Memoranda

It is for each Department to ensure that it has appropriate

arrangements for the Minister to access or obtain, as appropriate,

Government documents in order and in good time.

2.21 Safekeeping of Government Memoranda

Documents (in paper or electronic or any other form) relating to

meetings of the Government and any drafts of same, from whatever

source they are received, are strictly confidential and as such should

receive restricted Departmental circulation

2.22 Each Minister should ensure that a system operates which restricts

access to and circulation of Government documents in his/her

Department to defined persons and, in consultation with management

in the Department, that definite procedures and controls, as may be

appropriate to the circumstances, are implemented.

The written procedures and controls within each Department and Office

should include a protocol setting out details of: -

(1) Persons who should be registered to have access to

Government records online and the appropriate level(s) of

access to be granted

(2) The circumstances in which printed copies of Government

documents may be generated, together with arrangements for

their control during their life cycle.

The first paragraph in 2.22 could deem Simon Harris responsible for the initial leaking of the document, as he was the person on charge of the relevant department and was ultimately responsible for it not being shared outside.

brokenangel

Just because a document is confidential doesn't mean it cannot be shared. I hope people understand this.

If nobody could share it then every confidential document would be fairly pointless as nobody could read it.

1. If Leo has broken some rule/regulation then it will have been uncovered by the Gardai and it is up to the DPP to determine from the legal documents if that means a court case should happen
2. If Leo hasn't broken some rule/regulation then the case is shut and everyone moves on.

I fully expect of number 2 happens that a certain group will certainly not accept it and will try the usual faux outrage over the internet etc. Why? well because they don't like FG. If it was a TD in the party they support and something happened and they got proved innocent then they would be happy with the outcome. Such is the carry on at the moment.

Hence why you have the likes of Paddy Cosgrove who has already started whipping up a frenzy with his "followers" that if Leo doesn't get charged it will be a miscarriage of justice. Even yesterday trying to compare this to the Kinahans....deranged

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973793#Comment_118973793

If a document is marked 'Confidential/Not for Circulation' is it OK for it to be shared/circulated to anybody outside the parties involved in it's preparation (before the document is officially published), would it be OK if Varadkar couriered a copy of it out to me at my gaff?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972361#Comment_118972361

Claiming the criticism is from 'the online SF army' is quite Trumpian.

Trump being the former president our hero called Clare County Council for in the hopes of doing said president a solid.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973420#Comment_118973420

Every single one of the examples you give is tangible.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973597#Comment_118973597

Firstly, the Cabinet document is not law.

Secondly, the document was not a government document to which the Cabinet Handbook applies, as it was already in the possession of the IMO.

(Note: any accompanying Government Memo would be a government document, but not the negotiated document).

This was already explained months ago, yet posters keep repeating discredited nonsense as if it was some gotcha moment.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973853#Comment_118973853

Are you still claiming the DPP are “factually incorrect “ in the descriptions of what they do?

Yes confidential documents can be shared. If they couldn’t then how could Leo have got it in first place, or anyone after the person wrote it.

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974653#Comment_118974653

So any document marked 'Confidential/not for circulation' can be circulated to all and sundry, can I ask what would be the point of marking any document 'Confidential/not for circulation'.

Edit: Why was there a Garda investigation carried out on Varadkar if there is no problem circulating documents marked 'Confidential/not for circulation' to all and sundry

On the first one I'm still leaving it with you to figure out

The Garda investigation was on foot of a complaint made

We're back to repetition galore in this thread again

Orchestrated probably

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975028#Comment_118975028

We sure are, but when unusual statements are made tis hard not to challenge them.

And to be fair to you you are a fair hand at the auld sh1te repetition yourself (and thats just from what I've seen over the last 2 days). What exactly was the complaint, Im assuming it had nothing to do with leaking a document marked 'Confidential/not for circulation' as it now appears that anybody can leak any auld document marked 'Confidential/not for circulation' to all and sundry as per your buddy above

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974983#Comment_118974983

Was the document "circulated to all and sundry"? I never heard that it was and I certainly never received a copy. So that statement is incorrect

A complaint was made, the Gardai have to investigate. plenty of information available from online

As I already said, you should take that helicopter out again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975060#Comment_118975060

As posted above, this statement is a pile of .........

as it now appears that anybody can leak any auld document marked 'Confidential/not for circulation' to all and sundry as per your buddy above

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975108#Comment_118975108

You posted above, Yes confidential documents can be shared, can you explain that to me please, I feel I must be getting denser.

Brucie Bonus

The IMO were a party to the confidential document. They helped draft it. Their having access doesn't mean diddly as regards any confidentiality.

We do know Varadkar passed it to his friend the then head of a rival union, not invited to the talks, and without the permission or knowledge of the dept. of health or IMO.

The DPP will come to a conclusion regarding any criminality.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975131#Comment_118975131

I suggest you read all the posts which have already clarified this including my own.

Can you clarify about "circulated to all and sundry"?

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975173#Comment_118975173

Ah c'mon you came out with the sh1te, gimme a break asking me to read thru 405 pages of mostly political crap.

Of course I can, at least in the context I meant it, and more than delighted to help you out. By circulated to all and sundry I mean anybody, like me, you, the dog named boo, and anybody else who might fancy having a goo at it.

Now for your explanation of Yes confidential documents can be shared, it doesn't have to be a literary masterpiece

skimpydoo

Let's get down to brass tacks. Can documents classed as confidential be shared? Can said documents be shared with unions not involved in negotiations?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975060#Comment_118975060

Nobody ever said that. What has been said is that marking a document Confidential/not for circulation does not necessarily impose any special status on it, and it can still be circulated to certain people.

Think about it. If I write a document and mark it confidential/not for circulation, your position is that I cannot show it to my boss or to a co-worker or to anyone, the document remain forever unseen. That is an absurdity, but it is the logic of what you are saying.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975230#Comment_118975230

Yes to both, and I have given examples many times on this thread of where this has happened.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975149#Comment_118975149

Except it does mean something.

Government documents are covered by the Cabinet Handbook. An agreement with the IMO is by definition not a government document, as a private entity also has access to the document.

The accompanying memo to government, which would explain the background, the government negotiation approach, how much it will cost, whether it is a good or bad deal etc. etc. IS a confidential government document, but the agreement itself IS NOT.

notsocutehoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975348#Comment_118975348

Are you typing on behalf of Marine Player?

Sorry, I'm after reading your post, and you're right it is absurd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975230#Comment_118975230

It would seem quite obvious to me,that the members of nagp known they were not to have access to this document anyway

Quite why some lemmings,wish to gaslight public into thinking leaking confidential state documents is a non-issue is beyond me,any normal country and its years in jail would be looked at....in ireland,its cheerlead by media and 33% of population,bizzare stuff really

jmcc

It is funny to see FG's Pound-shop Putin propaganda effort about there being nothing to see. Then there was a Garda criminal investiation and a file being submitted to the DPP. That, in the clown world of FG propaganda, is meaningless because FG's leader has not done and cannot do anything wrong.

If the DPP declines to go ahead with a prosecution then there will be claims of political favouritism and Varadkar's leadership of FG will be even more tainted thant it is already. A prosecution will mean that Varadkar may be an unacceptable candidate for taoiseach. There is a possibility of FG, FF and Green TDs suddenly developing a backbone and not voting for him as it could put their own careers as TDs in jeopardy.

If there was nothing to see, as FG's Pound-shop Putin propaganda so diligently assured everyone, there would have been no file submitted to the DPP. The "no laws were broken" line also collapsed as soon as the file was submitted to the DPP. FG propaganda now focuses on the lack of a Garda recommendation on the submitted file. This is a political timebomb that has been passed from the Gardai to the DPP. Will the DPP decide to prosecute? We don't know yet. Prosecution or no prosecution, FG's reputation for being the party of law and order has been destroyed. It may have to dispose of Varadkar as leader before December.

Regards...jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972361#Comment_118972361

How can it be an allegation,the blokes admitted to it in the dail,even going as far as apoligising?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975367#Comment_118975367

It was not for public consumption. Thats what we know. I don't claim to know what does and doesn't constitute a government document.

It was regarding the confidential and private negotiation between the IMO and dept. of health, which as I say, Varadkar passed it to his friend without the knowledge or approval of the parties concerned. Be it a government document, by the definition or back of a beer mat.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975460#Comment_118975460

Not for public consumption doesn't mean it couldn't be shared with limited others.

Varadkar is the party concerned.

We have been through this before many times, and it has been explained many times to you.