Labour's Corbyn suspended for reaction to anti-semitism report

biko

I suppose the difference is when your government calls Erdogan their friend it's foreign policy, but if a party leader does it then it's single party policy.

bunderoon

Danzy wrote: »

If you spent 5 minutes looking at the Labour Against Anti semitism posts , you would see a party with a severe problem and no interest in acting on it.

While Klan leaders like David Duke or Nick Griffin endorsed Corbyn for his anti semitism, I don't think he is a traditional anti semitic tosser.

He is a product of the modern left, it's identity obsessions, enjoys the radical chic of militant opposition to Israel's occupation of Palestine, turns a blind eye to the extreme antisemitism so common in most of that movement.

A friend and help to antisemites, a sneaking regarder for it.

Isnt it entirely possible that they heard from the British media that Corbyn 'is' an Antisemite, so they endorse him. As opposed to, you know, evidence that he actually is one.
Speaking of evidence, I asked a while back for some. I havent come across any yet.
Objecting to Israeli policies do not make you an anti-semite.

RWCNT

Gervais08 wrote: »

Nice deflection. Guess we won’t see any yarmulkes coming out of your house.

It's a question/comparison, if that's deflection then so is this contribution from you earlier today:

Gervais08 wrote: »

Can you point out the last time a Jew went into the streets in Europe and killed innocent people going about their normal, lawful activities - in the name of the Jewish faith ?

Spoiler alert - you won’t be able to.

The reasonable thing to do when a poster claims they'd be the first to condemn an antisemitic statement from JC, would be to provide them with an antisemitic statement from JC and await response. But no, that's too much trouble, let's just (very carefully, mind you) call them an anti-semite. Poor form

Tom Mann Centuria

Corbyn is currently not allowed back in the parliamentary Party. So he's allowed to be in Labour, and an MP, but currently not a Labour MP for whatever reason. All makes perfect sense I'm sure. Starmer is taking the death by a thousand cuts approach to this. Dragging it out is gold for the media and doesn't at all look decisive, and he can't hide behind Evans or the party for this, it's all on him.

Sand

bunderoon wrote: »

Objecting to Israeli policies do not make you an anti-semite.

I'm fairly sure it does for all intents and purposes. If Corbyn was avowedly pro-Israeli, he'd not face any accusations of antisemitism.

biko

bunderoon wrote: »

Objecting to Israeli policies do not make you an anti-semite.

I agree, Israel is a nation while Judaism is a religion.
If you think Saudi Arabi policies are deplorable it doesn't make you Islamophobic, in my opinion (others may disagree).
Judasim isn't even the state religion in Israel (like Sunni Islam is the official state religion in Saudi Arabia).

Sand

biko wrote: »

I agree, Israel is a nation while Judaism is a religion.
If you think Saudi Arabi policies are deplorable it doesn't make you Islamophobic, in my opinion (others may disagree).
Judasim isn't even the state religion in Israel (like Sunni Islam is the official state religion in Saudi Arabia).

The basic law of Israel is that Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people though. Its not a multicultural state.

biko

From PEW research
About eight-in-ten (81%) Israeli adults are Jewish, while the remainder are mostly ethnically Arab and religiously Muslim (14%), Christian (2%) or Druze (2%).
Overall, the Arab religious minorities in Israel are more religiously observant than Jews.

These groups all are largely isolated from one another socially; there is virtually no religious intermarriage in Israel, and strong majorities of Jews, Muslims, Christians and Druze say all or most of their close friends belong to their own religious group.

Sounds like regular multicultural to me.

Sand

biko wrote: »

From PEW research
About eight-in-ten (81%) Israeli adults are Jewish, while the remainder are mostly ethnically Arab and religiously Muslim (14%), Christian (2%) or Druze (2%).
Overall, the Arab religious minorities in Israel are more religiously observant than Jews.

These groups all are largely isolated from one another socially; there is virtually no religious intermarriage in Israel, and strong majorities of Jews, Muslims, Christians and Druze say all or most of their close friends belong to their own religious group.

Sounds like regular multicultural to me.

Virtually no religious intermarriage? Why is that?

biko

The anti-Semitic problem is when someone like Corbyn invites Raed Salah for tea.
Raed Salah didn't just say he disagreed with Israeli policies, he called called Jews germs.
Corbyn called Salah an "honoured citizen".

Do you know where Raed Salah lives?
He lives in Israel

Sand

biko wrote: »

The anti-Semitic problem is when someone like Corbyn invites Raed Salah for tea.
Raed Salah didn't just say he disagreed with Israeli policies, he called called Jews germs.
Corbyn called Salah an "honoured citizen".

Do you know where Raed Salah lives?
He lives in Israel

Well, he would no doubt argue he lives in occupied Palestine. He is a critic of Israel and indeed has been accused of antisemitism. He himself has conclusively rejected that claim:

"I unequivocally condemn all forms of racism, including anti- Semitism, Islamophobia, and racism towards my own people, the Palestinians."

So, I guess that is that cleared up.

Oh I checked myself why there is no religious intermarriage in Israel. Its because the state of Israel doesn't recognize interfaith marriages. That doesn't sound like a multicultural state to me.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Sand wrote: »

The basic law of Israel is that Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people though. Its not a multicultural state.

Its an apartheid state

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Israel continued to impose institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians

Danzy

Harleigh Cool Hailstone wrote: »

Its an apartheid state

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

How does it square the fundamental reality that if they allow the right to return etc etc that it will end with their extermination?

That's the key complication in this. I don't particularly like the Israeli State or how it acts.

Danzy

Sand wrote: »

Well, he would no doubt argue he lives in occupied Palestine. He is a critic of Israel and indeed has been accused of antisemitism. He himself has conclusively rejected that claim:

"I unequivocally condemn all forms of racism, including anti- Semitism, Islamophobia, and racism towards my own people, the Palestinians."

So, I guess that is that cleared up.

Oh I checked myself why there is no religious intermarriage in Israel. Its because the state of Israel doesn't recognize interfaith marriages. That doesn't sound like a multicultural state to me.

Israel isn't a multi cultural State, nor does it view itself as.

It missed, never bought into the sweeping neoliberalism of the 80s and 90s that Western Europe endured. The multi culturalism that system created.

That's an ideology thing, much of Eastern Europe missed out on that as well.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Danzy wrote: »

How does it square the fundamental reality that if they allow the right to return etc etc that it will end with their extermination?

That's the key complication in this. I don't particularly like the Israeli State or how it acts.

It's similar to our own history here in Ireland of plantation, colonization and oppression but far worse for some Palestinians who got terrorised out of their homeland. Israel has some of the most racist laws in the world

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-renews-racist-marriage-law

A lot of support in Ireland for Palestinian rights probably due to the parallels of our own history
https://www.ipsc.ie/bds-the-background

Danzy

biko wrote: »

The anti-Semitic problem is when someone like Corbyn invites Raed Salah for tea..

Raed Salah's views on Jews, gays, women, religion, cultural freedom would mark him out as a reactionary even to the most ultra fascist in Europe.

Basic human rights and decency are deeply opposed by him.

RWCNT

biko wrote: »

I agree, Israel is a nation while Judaism is a religion.
If you think Saudi Arabi policies are deplorable it doesn't make you Islamophobic, in my opinion (others may disagree).
Judasim isn't even the state religion in Israel (like Sunni Islam is the official state religion in Saudi Arabia).

Mostly agree but also worth noting that Jews are a people, some of whom may not even practise Judaism. Antisemitism is often just straight up racism, as opposed to religious bigotry, although of course it can be both at the same time.

Eric Cartman

It almost seems like they've allowed Corbyn back in just to try screw over starmer.

Corbyn and the diehard corbynistas will ensure the British Labour Party remains in opposition until they leave. A very reactionary, stalinist brand of marxism that has no place in UK politics. Alienating ordinary working class British people.

joemurt

Gervais08 wrote: »

Can you point out the last time a Jew went into the streets in Europe and killed innocent people going about their normal, lawful activities - in the name of the Jewish faith ?

Spoiler alert - you won’t be able to.

The Lillehammer affair was the killing by Mossad agents of Ahmed Bouchikhi, a Moroccan waiter and brother of the renowned musician Chico Bouchikhi, in Lillehammer, Norway, on 21 July 1973.


You owe everyone on this thread an apology. Tut, tut. They also murdered someone in Italy a couple of weeks ago.



Also fUnFaCt - ''
The @EHRC
's three new commissioners are a Tory Lord, the daughter of a Tory Politician and David Goodhart. No investigation into institutional anti-Semitism and Islamophobia within the Conservative Party for the foreseeable then...


https://twitter.com/sensiblehuman96/status/1326956396114563075

Junkyard Tom

There was/is definitely an issue with antisemitism in the Labour Party but it became practically impossible to discern where the problem ended and a witch-hunt against Corbyn (or more accurately the policies he advocated) began.

I was trying to follow the issue on Twitter but gave up and just started watching David Schneider for cues as he's Jewish and a Labour supporter and points it out. I suppose prejudice against minorities is a constant issue so it's something that needs constant attention.

joemurt

biko wrote: »

The old thread on his anti-Semitism is now archived

You know Irish law differs from the UK, right?


Is this type of comment really worth risking your house for?

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

The anti-Semitic problem is when someone like Corbyn invites Raed Salah for tea.
Raed Salah didn't just say he disagreed with Israeli policies, he called called Jews germs.
Corbyn called Salah an "honoured citizen".

Do you know where Raed Salah lives?
He lives in Israel

Can you show us exactly where he said that? As that's a shocking thing to say, if true. If you cant, you shouldnt say that he did.

joemurt

David Schneider - yikes - as useful as following Rachel Riley. The things grifters do for money.

The EHRC found 2 cases of antisemitism out of a sample of 70 cases in their report. They had to revise and edit their report numerous times because it was libelous.

More anti Jewish racism in the Conservative party but that was overlooked by the powers that be because, unlike Corbyns Labour, they didn't have a pledge in their manifesto to stop selling weapons to Isral and SA, which is nice......

What I can't figure out is if racism was such a problem within Corbyns Labour, why has Starmer not removed thousands and thousands of members from the party? He only seems to be interested in removing Corbyn.

bunderoon

Sand wrote: »

I'm fairly sure it does for all intents and purposes. If Corbyn was avowedly pro-Israeli, he'd not face any accusations of antisemitism.

The point being missed here is that the charge of antisemitism is levelled against those who criticize Israel for their actions, home and abroad.
And that is incorrect.

Junkyard Tom

joemurt wrote: »

David Schneider - yikes - as useful as following Rachel Riley. The things grifters do for money.

Not a chance, he's very thoughtful and cares about the Labour Party. Rachel Riley seemed almost unhinged about the whole thing.

More anti Jewish racism in the Conservative party but that was overlooked by the powers that be because, unlike Corbyns Labour, they didn't have a pledge in their manifesto to stop selling weapons to Isral and SA, which is nice......

Oh for sure but that's whataboutery. The Labour Party is supposed to be anti-racist so should hold itself to a higher standard.

What I can't figure out is if racism was such a problem within Corbyns Labour, why has Starmer not removed thousands and thousands of members from the party? He only seems to be interested in removing Corbyn.

Yep, there were elements within the Labour Party who despise the anti-Blair side of the Party which is the side where my sympathies would lie myself.

Gervais08

joemurt wrote: »

The Lillehammer affair was the killing by Mossad agents of Ahmed Bouchikhi, a Moroccan waiter and brother of the renowned musician Chico Bouchikhi, in Lillehammer, Norway, on 21 July 1973.


You owe everyone on this thread an apology. Tut, tut. They also murdered someone in Italy a couple of weeks ago.



Also fUnFaCt - ''
The @EHRC
's three new commissioners are a Tory Lord, the daughter of a Tory Politician and David Goodhart. No investigation into institutional anti-Semitism and Islamophobia within the Conservative Party for the foreseeable then...


https://twitter.com/sensiblehuman96/status/1326956396114563075

Bad faith posting I’m afraid - that was a Mossad assassination and a **** up where they got the wrong person.

Not the same clearly!!!

And you think I “owe everyone an apology”?? Behave eh ?

biko

bunderoon wrote: »

Can you show us exactly where he said that? As that's a shocking thing to say, if true. If you cant, you shouldnt say that he did.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-s-not-an-anti-semite-he-s-just-very-unlucky

In 2011, Corbyn called Islamic Movement preacher Raed Salah a ‘very honoured citizen’, shortly before all that weirdness in which Salah was charged with inciting racism and violence against Jews and sentenced to eight months in chokey in Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism

Taken tea on the parliamentary terrace with Raed Salah, who he described as “a very honoured citizen” despite that fact that Salah was charged with inciting anti-Jewish racism and violence in January 2008 in Jerusalem and sentenced to eight months in prison. He was found by a British court judge to have used the “blood libel”, the medieval antisemitic canard that Jews use gentile blood for ritual purposes;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/10491940/footage-shows-jeremy-corbyn-embracing-islamic-hate-preacher-who-was-jailed-over-hamas-fundraising/

Yet the new clip – which emerged today – showed Corbyn shaking the cleric’s hand at the same meeting where he called him an “honoured citizen” and invited him for tea in Parliament.

A second clip shows the men embracing as they leave the venue.

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-s-not-an-anti-semite-he-s-just-very-unlucky

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/10491940/footage-shows-jeremy-corbyn-embracing-islamic-hate-preacher-who-was-jailed-over-hamas-fundraising/

These are just various news reports..
Can you show me where he said that they were germs?

quokula

biko wrote: »

Jews are leaving many previously safe countries.
Headlines unheard of for many decades are making a recent comeback:

• 1 in 3 British Jews have considered leaving the UK due to rising antisemitism.
• Europe's Jews Are Resisting a Rising Tide of Anti-Semitism
• Jews leave Swedish city after sharp rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes
• Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?

It seems somehow in the last 20 years the Brits and other Europeans have become quite anti-Semitic.

All of this due to the rise of right wing populism and its enablers like the British Tories. To then try and turn it around and blame one of the few politicians who's spent his life fighting against racism is almost laughable.

biko

bunderoon wrote: »

These are just various news reports..
Can you show me where he said that they were germs?

Oh, by "he" you mean Salah and not Corbyn?

I posted the quote from Washington Post earlier
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/07/16/labour-dissidents-decry-partys-anti-semitism-corbynites-attack-messenger/

“Panorama” showed us a clip of the cleric Raed Salah, in its words “a notorious anti-Semitic preacher who had called Jews ‘the Germs of all time,’”
and then followed it with a clip of Corbyn inviting Salah to tea at the House of Commons in 2012 because “he’ll deserve it.”