Labour's Corbyn suspended for reaction to anti-semitism report

biko

quokula wrote: »

All of this due to the rise of right wing populism and its enablers like the British Tories.

That seems odd. Can you show sources backing you up that all of this (100%) is because of right-wing populism?

This New York Times piece says it's from all sides.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/world/europe/antisemitism-europe-united-states.html

This Atlantic piece agrees with NYT.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/seventy-five-years-after-auschwitz-anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise/605452/

https://www.survation.com/new-polling-of-british-jews-shows-tensions-remain-strong-between-labour-and-the-british-jewish-community/

2019

The poll, conducted using Survation’s telephone panel of Jewish adults in Great Britain, found that 86% of respondents believe that there are high levels of antisemitism among Labour Party members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1 to 5 scale where 1 represented low levels of antisemitism and 5 represented high levels), the same percentage as in 2018. Only 6% felt there were similar levels of antisemitism within the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, with 46% stating that UKIP had high levels of antisemitism.

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

Oh, by "he" you mean Salah and not Corbyn?

I posted the quote from Washington Post earlier
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/07/16/labour-dissidents-decry-partys-anti-semitism-corbynites-attack-messenger/

More news links. Do we have any links to the direct footage or links to the published works from this fella (never heard of him before) or is it just links to news reports?

I ask, as otherwise its just random nobodys on the internet calling people names/labels without proof. Just like calling Corbyn an antisemite without actual proof (not 2nd hand news links of 'situations').

Both may well be. But we shouldn't called them something like this until you have actual proof. We know how corrupt news organisations are.

Funny things about words. You may or may not be Jewish Biko. So can people start calling you an Antigentile or a self hating gentile for spreading unsubstantiated claims about others?

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

That seems odd. Can you show sources backing you up that all of this (100%) is because of right-wing populism?

This New York Times piece says it's from all sides.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/world/europe/antisemitism-europe-united-states.html

This Atlantic piece agrees with NYT.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/seventy-five-years-after-auschwitz-anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise/605452/

https://www.survation.com/new-polling-of-british-jews-shows-tensions-remain-strong-between-labour-and-the-british-jewish-community/

2019

Is this poll the opinion of these people from what they've read/heard or what they've actually experienced from these party members? Highly doubt its due to meetings with party members. Have any of us met lots of FF/FG/SF party members? Of course not. So how is this poll measured? Makes hardly any sense, yet you have put it here as some sort of proof to what you are saying previously.

As I said before, we shouldnt post unproven subjective stuff on this thread. It's silly and disingenuous.

biko

bunderoon wrote: »

More news links. Do we have any links to the direct footage or links to the published works from this fella (never heard of him before) or is it just links to news reports?

Do you think Washington Post is wrong?
Why don't you believe them?

It is kinda odd how I provide sources but you just cast the facts aside.

breezy1985

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It almost seems like they've allowed Corbyn back in just to try screw over starmer.

Corbyn and the diehard corbynistas will ensure the British Labour Party remains in opposition until they leave. A very reactionary, stalinist brand of marxism that has no place in UK politics. Alienating ordinary working class British people.

I know it's anecdotal but all the working class British people I knew voted for him including many from up North England. And i a working class Irishman also voted for him.

ancapailldorcha

breezy1985 wrote: »

I know it's anecdotal but all the working class British people I knew voted for him including many from up North. And i a working class Irishman also voted for him.

Too many didn't though. That's the problem. I voted Labour in 2019 because I wanted a People's Vote. If that wasn't on the agenda then I'd have voted Lib Dem.

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

Do you think Washington Post is wrong?
Why don't you believe them?

It is kinda odd how I provide sources but you just cast the facts aside.

This is the thing. WE dont know if Washington Post is right or wrong. Do they have an agenda/bias as do most big publications and TV news companies.

Its not odd at all. You provide news links, but not actual evidence/facts.

Three simple, yet massive examples of how media get things wrong:
1) Trump becoming president.
2) Brexit going ahead.
3) Coronavirus is just a flu and not more harmless than the flu.

Its simple. You call someone something, back it up with evidence, not he said/she said. Otherwise it just looks foolish.

biko

bunderoon wrote: »

This is the thing. WE dont know if Washington Post is right or wrong. Do they have an agenda/bias as do most big publications and TV news companies.

Its not odd at all. You provide news links, but not actual evidence/facts.

People trust news, that is the whole point of real journalism - to be truthful.
RTE started 'Truth Matters' to point that out.
Journalists on major news sites make damn sure to have fact-checked everything.

But, if you don't want to believe the news, how can you be sure of anything at all?
I think maybe there is nothing else I can do for you. I can only lead you to the water.

breezy1985

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Too many didn't though. That's the problem. I voted Labour in 2019 because I wanted a People's Vote. If that wasn't on the agenda then I'd have voted Lib Dem.

Some do some don't. My problem with Mr. Cartman is this "ordinary working class people" thing of pretending to care but actually just perpetuating the stereotype that we are all the Workington man eating our Gregg's pasties in our white vans for lunch. It's another attempt to keep us in our place by invalidating and working class people who are progressive, 3rd level educated or not white

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

People trust news, that is the whole point of real journalism - to be truthful.
RTE started 'Truth Matters' to point that out.
Journalists on major news sites make damn sure to have fact-checked everything.

But, if you don't want to believe the news, how can you be sure of anything at all?
I think maybe there is nothing else I can do for you. I can only lead you to the water.

People are lead by news these days. Hardly anyone truly trusts news 'companies'.
I dont want opinion pieces based on no evidence. Like you, I;d want THE news and with footage/evidence/proof of it happening.
RTE, christ, what can anyone say about that crowd.
How do you know that Journalists on major news sites make damn sure to have fact-checked everything? Have you proof?

An example of a reporter/editor/write for the New York Times - Bari Weiss.
Google that Joe Rogan interview. If you havent seen it, you will be shocked at the amount of unsubstantiated claims she makes.
And if you would form your opinion from a reporters ill-informed opinion, then it leads us to here - this very thread. An echochamber of nonsense.

Dont lead people to water when you havent checked the quality of that water.

Danzy

breezy1985 wrote: »

Some do some don't. My problem with Mr. Cartman is this "ordinary working class people" thing of pretending to care but actually just perpetuating the stereotype that we are all the Workington man eating our Gregg's pasties in our white vans for lunch. It's another attempt to keep us in our place by invalidating and working class people who are progressive, 3rd level educated or not white

It's not in validating, it's pointing out that the majority of the working class do not support Labour now.

That's a major crisis for the party and why it suffered a defeat not seen since the 1930s.

The class divide between modern left parties and the working class is not confined to one country.

It's a class divide, it's a values divide but it is also a divide between those, regardless of class etc who benefit from globalization and neoliberalism vs those who do not.

Danzy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It almost seems like they've allowed Corbyn back in just to try screw over starmer.

Corbyn and the diehard corbynistas will ensure the British Labour Party remains in opposition until they leave. A very reactionary, stalinist brand of marxism that has no place in UK politics. Alienating ordinary working class British people.

They would prefer the safety and purity of opposition to the reality of power.

The right looks for converts and the left looks for heretics.

joemurt

Gervais08 wrote: »

Bad faith posting I’m afraid - that was a Mossad assassination and a **** up where they got the wrong person.

Not the same clearly!!!

And you think I “owe everyone an apology”?? Behave eh ?

Not bad faith at all mate.


You set the criteria. I matched it. Facts are facts. Sorry if they make you look silly.


You should apologize.



Own your mistake.

ancapailldorcha

biko wrote: »

People trust news, that is the whole point of real journalism - to be truthful.
RTE started 'Truth Matters' to point that out.
Journalists on major news sites make damn sure to have fact-checked everything.

But, if you don't want to believe the news, how can you be sure of anything at all?
I think maybe there is nothing else I can do for you. I can only lead you to the water.

Check any US Politics thread on this site and you'll see Trump supporters throwing out "MSM" and "fake news" everywhere. I've seen you smugly dismiss opinions you don't like without even reading them so this just rings hollow.

I don't deny Labour's antisemitism problem, either its existence or that the leadership should have done a lot more about it. However, concern from tabloids, blogs and so on reeks of dis-ingenuity.

joemurt

biko wrote: »

It was to my point that Jews in Europe are again threatened by anti-Semitism, and when one of the major parties in Britain can't stem it then it doesn't bode well for the future.

If the refugees we welcome now hate the refugees we welcomed previously, what responsibility lies with us?

Didn't the PM of Israels son have to apologize for being an anti Semite? Doesn't set a great standard for everyone else, does it?



When you start to include anti racists like Corbyn in these 'figures' of rising anti semitism across Europe people will tend not to put to much weight into them. Which isn't great for the Jewish people across Europe.

breezy1985

Danzy wrote: »

It's not in validating, it's pointing out that the majority of the working class do not support Labour now.

That's a major crisis for the party and why it suffered a defeat not seen since the 1930s.

The class divide between modern left parties and the working class is not confined to one country.

It's a class divide, it's a values divide but it is also a divide between those, regardless of class etc who benefit from globalization and neoliberalism vs those who do not.

Your missing my point. It's this specific reference to the "ordinary work class person". I don't ever hear people talk about alienating the ordinary upper class person. The "ordinary working class person" is a fake construct

biko

joemurt wrote: »

Didn't the PM of Israels son have to apologize for being an anti Semite?

I don't know. Until you have a source it didn't happen.

joemurt

And don't put to much credibilty into anything sited by the 'campaign against anti Semitism' twitter handle.

I believe the bloke who runs it thinks it perfectly exceptable for Labour members to discuss if Nazi's who killed millions of Jewish people are hot or not........which is pretty bizarre.

joemurt

biko wrote: »

I don't know. Until you have a source it didn't happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/netanyahu-son-yair-antisemitic-cartoon-george-soros


I might be wrong about him apologizing. Maybe he didn't.

biko

I suppose it goes to show that anyone can do or say something anti-Semitic, also Jewish people.
Is it an excuse? No.

biko

One could argue it's ok for Jews to do anti-Semitic things.
Like black people can say n****r, but no-one else is allowed.

Danzy

breezy1985 wrote: »

Your missing my point. It's this specific reference to the "ordinary work class person". I don't ever hear people talk about alienating the ordinary upper class person. The "ordinary working class person" is a fake construct

Nothing is absolute one way or the other. I get your point.

Maybe it is because you often hear Labour or Labour activists talking about working class politics, the working class etc etc.

The majority of the working class are against Labour and often passionately so.

Too many pretend that that is false Consciousness, the most self defeating and arrogant concept ever to damage left wing movements.

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

I don't know. Until you have a source it didn't happen.

You see, that's better. Verify before posting.

biko

He just posted a news source and I accepted it, whereas you didn't believe my news sources.
I'm gullible like that - I accept a lot of what I read in the major papers to be true.

bunderoon

biko wrote: »

He just posted a news source and I accepted it, whereas you didn't believe my news sources.
I'm gullible like that - I accept a lot of what I read in the major papers to be true.

No, the news source provided proof and quoted people who seen it.
Theres a big difference in the above verses a reporter or article who didnt, but published it and had readers accept it as truth.

suicide_circus

Corbyn did not have to do anything overtly anti semetic in order to be culpable in presiding over a culture in which anti semitism was allowed to fester.

breezy1985

Danzy wrote: »

Nothing is absolute one way or the other. I get your point.

Maybe it is because you often hear Labour or Labour activists talking about working class politics, the working class etc etc.

The majority of the working class are against Labour and often passionately so.

Too many pretend that that is false Consciousness, the most self defeating and arrogant concept ever to damage left wing movements.

Every major city in England votes Labour. The entirety of East and South East London along with most of working class Manchester, Liverpool and so on. They have been against Labour on Brexit but beyond that hate Tories with a passion

bunderoon

suicide_circus wrote: »

Corbyn did not have to do anything overtly anti semetic in order to be culpable in presiding over a culture in which anti semitism was allowed to fester.

Very true. He was the leader.
But again, where is the proof that the party has antisemitic members and that it was 'festering'? Any examples of this culture? I read this too in the media but there were no actual examples given. Examples of being against Israeli policies, but nothing against semetic poeple.

Can you define what you think an antisemite is? And which members of this party did/say antisemitc things.

suicide_circus

bunderoon wrote: »

Very true. He was the leader.
But again, where is the proof that the party has antisemitic members and that it was 'festering'? Any examples of this culture? I read this too in the media but there were no actual examples given. Examples of being against Israeli policies, but nothing against semetic poeple.

Can you define what you think an antisemite is? And which members of this party did/say antisemitc things.

You'll have to ask the Equality and Human Rights Commission who seem to think there were problems.

bunderoon

suicide_circus wrote: »

You'll have to ask the Equality and Human Rights Commission who seem to think there were problems.

And in there, lies the problem.