No notice

Enquiring

Recently a friend of mine started a new job, they didn't give notice to their old job, they just left and started the new job, telling them on the last day that they weren't working there anymore. They were on a permanent contract in the old job.

They got paid monthly in the old job and their payday is not for another week I think. Does anyone know can their old employers withhold the payment or is there any other implications for not giving notice?

OMM 0000

They can't withhold payment for days worked.

Technically they could sue for breach of contract, but this almost never happens unless you're very senior (e.g. a CEO being poached).

Obviously you can't use them as a reference, and there's a risk you could run into the same manager or HR in a future job (due to Ireland being small).

Enquiring

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They can't withhold payment for days worked.

Technically they could sue for breach of contract, but this almost never happens unless you're very senior (e.g. a CEO being poached).

Obviously you can't use them as a reference, and there's a risk you could run into the same manager or HR in a future job (due to Ireland being small).

Yeah, they actually started the new job before quitting the old one! I told them it was a bad idea but they just laughed and said they already got a reference off them.

I don't think they care about running into their old manager unfortunately, they just seem delighted about getting one over on them. They're old manager contacted them after they quit and my friend just laughed down the phone at them.

OMM 0000

Your friend is going to have a difficult life.

silver2020

Hope a future employer doesn't make too many enquiries into previous employment.

Your "friend" would probably be the first person to cry foul if an employer did not follow the rules.

But they will get paid up to the day they left

Enquiring

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Your friend is going to have a difficult life.

I thought this would catch up with them. Surely they can withhold his pay? You say not though.

If not, I think he's got away with it. He's making more money in the new job and he got full pay from the other job even when he was already working the new job. Doesn't seem right.

Enquiring

silver2020 wrote: »

Hope a future employer doesn't make too many enquiries into previous employment.

Your "friend" would probably be the first person to cry foul if an employer did not follow the rules.

But they will get paid up to the day they left

Yeah, they made a lot of complaints about this employer. They feel they were justified in what they did because of this.

The old employer will have to grudgingly pay up though? I can see why they won't be happy at all about this.

TheChizler

How were they doing the two jobs at the same time? For how long

Abel Ruiz

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Your friend is going to have a difficult life.

Absolute nonsense. Ireland is not small.
What exactly is going to happen. No crime was committed. Stop with this difficult life crap.
The op friend was obviously not in an important role, and probably wasn't on good money in the old job.
Who cares. The manager will move on quick.
Life goes on. I very much doubt he'll 'suffer' for this in 30years.

Difficult life haha. Gas stuff

Enquiring

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Ireland is not small.
What exactly is going to happen. No crime was committed. Stop with this difficult life crap.
The op friend was obviously not in an important role, and probably wasn't on good money in the old job.
Who cares. The manager will move on quick.
Life goes on. I very much doubt he'll 'suffer' for this in 30years.

Difficult life haha. Gas stuff

It does seem a bit silly. I warned my friend about these things but if they can't withhold pay, it looks like they got away scot free.

In fairness, the employer didn't seem great from what my friend has told me. I don't really feel sorry for them.

Dav010

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Ireland is not small.
What exactly is going to happen. No crime was committed. Stop with this difficult life crap.
The op friend was obviously not in an important role, and probably wasn't on good money in the old job.
Who cares. The manager will move on quick.
Life goes on. I very much doubt he'll 'suffer' for this in 30years.

Difficult life haha. Gas stuff

You got all that from the op?

NinjaTruncs

Depending on the size of the company if the friend is being a dick after leaving you could find the company is willing to spend money going to court for breach of contract, it could be a small price to pay for the company and make things difficult for the friend.

While not knowing what is in the friends contract there are probably other clauses they have breached. I've been involved in a review of a past employees emails, as they left on bad terms and his manager found a reason to justify a review of all outbound emails. Things were found within those email that could have made life difficult for the past employee. Ultimately the manage/legal decided not to take it further as the issues were small, but they could have if they wanted.

In my opinion if you're not getting on with your current employer just leave and forget about the company, don't try to make a point or get one over on them .

Abel Ruiz

Dav010 wrote: »

You got all that from the op?

Yes there are 4 posts about the op friend.
But the 'difficult life' post was written just after two posts.

How come you don't question that poster????? Huh

OMM 0000

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Ireland is not small.
What exactly is going to happen. No crime was committed. Stop with this difficult life crap.
The op friend was obviously not in an important role, and probably wasn't on good money in the old job.
Who cares. The manager will move on quick.
Life goes on. I very much doubt he'll 'suffer' for this in 30years.

Difficult life haha. Gas stuff

A person who is incredibly disrespectful and doesn't respect contracts or convention is going to find his behaviour catches up with him.

I seriously doubt this is the first time he has acted like this, and won't be the last, hence the "difficult life" he's going to have.

Abel Ruiz

OMM 0000 wrote: »

A person who is incredibly disrespectful and doesn't respect contracts or convention is going to find his behaviour catches up with him.

I seriously doubt this is the first time he has acted like this, and won't be the last, hence the "difficult life" he's going to have.

So you've jumped to loads of conclusions.
And I get criticism for doing similar....

Anyway, from the op's posts, the friend was obviously not in a high position, not on good money, not happy with his job.
He left, and we guess he didn't steal or do anything like that, then the company will just forget him and look for someone else.
It'll cause more work for his ex colleagues for a few weeks. That's it.

Maybe it is the first time, but if it isn't. He somehow managed to get another job, he must be doing something right.
His life is not ruined, that is my point.
'Difficult life' is way ott.

If you think it is, fair enough. Have a good one chief.

OMM 0000

Abel Ruiz wrote:

His life is not ruined, that is my point.

Obviously his life is not ruined. No reasonable person thinks that.

He started a new job while still contractually obligated to another one, didn't bother giving notice, and then laughed at the employer when they rang him asking what's going on.

That's not the behaviour of a normal person. It's the behaviour of someone who has respect for nothing. Those people don't have good lives, because the world does not respond well to them.

Enquiring

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Obviously his life is not ruined. No reasonable person thinks that.

He started a new job while still contractually obligated to another one, didn't bother giving notice, and then laughed at the employer when they rang him asking what's going on.

That's not the behaviour of a normal person. It's the behaviour of someone who has respect for nothing. Those people don't have good lives, because the world does not respond well to them.

I told my friend that this was wrong and was advising him against his bad behaviour. From what he's told me about the employer though, they didn't seem to have much respect for anyone including their employees. Maybe they won't have a good life either?

OMM 0000

Enquiring wrote: »

I told my friend that this was wrong and was advising him against his bad behaviour. From what he's told me about the employer though, they didn't seem to have much respect for anyone including their employees. Maybe they won't have a good life either?

Can you give an example of how the employer was disrespecting people?

Enquiring

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Can you give an example of how the employer was disrespecting people?

I don't know the ins and outs of it but apparently, they weren't showing staff much respect.

In fairness, my friend has never had issues in previous jobs and I have no reason to doubt what he's told me. I don't think he was right to do it but I can see why he was delighted getting one over his old employer.

That's why I thought his employer would withhold pay or something as he's was absolutely bulling that my friend had bested him.

s1ippy

Great to hear it OP

440Hertz

Not a particularly nice thing to do, as it leaves someone stuck, but the likelihood of consequences beyond someone having their nose out of joint is extremely slim and we have no idea of this was a mission critical job or something with minimal consequences for the employer.

How much your reputation matters, very much depends on what type of job you do, how senior it is, how important it is to you and how big the industry is.

If you’re unreliable in small sectors, that can come back to haunt you, but if you’re doing some high turnover or generic job, often it won’t.

If you keep doing things like that though, you do eventually get a bad rep, but that being said people walk out of jobs for various reasons - disputes, bad atmosphere, personality clashes etc etc . It happens and life goes on.

In short, the consequences are just going to be the social ones.

Enquiring

s1ippy wrote: »

Great to hear it OP

Yeah, I'm delighted that they'll get their pay and have no repercussions. It's not something they should be doing obviously but they seem to be much happier away from the previous employer.

They did right, a company wouldn’t think twice about getting rid of them if it suited. Definitely worth doing it with a place like that.

s1ippy

I've left a few jobs without seeing out the requisite notice period. My reputation hasn't been damaged one jot and I'm highly sought after whenever I apply for new positions. Granted I'm in the public service but unless the employer was put in a position where somebody completely irreplaceable left, I doubt they'll be bringing it up at the AGM or anything.

As many have mentioned here already, it reflects as badly on the employer who can't control his team or be relied upon to hire valuable staff. No offence to your friend intended but it's doubtful anyone beyond that one manager will even be made aware of the situation.

breezy1985

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They can't withhold payment for days worked.

Technically they could sue for breach of contract, but this almost never happens unless you're very senior (e.g. a CEO being poached).

Obviously you can't use them as a reference, and there's a risk you could run into the same manager or HR in a future job (due to Ireland being small).

I have worked places where the employer holds it back in the hopes the employee doesn't come looking for it or doesn't realise they are entitled to it but would pay if they came looking knowing that they legally had to

JustAThought

It wasn’t a very nice or respectful way to treat his employer - or manager but as the OP said, the manager had already given his a presumBly good reference before he scoffed him pff and was rude on the phone.

Problem will be, for his NEXT job, he will still need two past job referees. Now his ex manager has a choice - tell the next referee how he broke his contract, left them in the lurch mid project and disn’t serve out his notice - or just simply say ‘he left extremely abruptly’ - says nothing but says a lot. If the question arises ‘would you employ them again’ now they have him/her Or would you hire him again - again - now there could be a snag - for the OP’s friend.

As regards payment he will be paid, he will be in a poor position if he has to go back and get his holidays due or if they were forgotten on the payroll - scoffing and hanging up dosn’t oil wheels.

He could also have a problem if he called in sick so as not to work and was paid for that - while working in his new job. The dates from the payroll/ revenue will highlight this and if/when a query is raised then this can be made tricky for him - fraudulently claiming / whatever. Now then he would have a proper HE black mark against him that his old manager could use. Again - entirely their discresion.

Regardless most people have bigger fish to fry but old employees can stick a spanner in the works and your prospects quickly enough - if they feel evil enough or are bothered. You are relying on a non revenge motivated ex manager or someone who maybe is mature enough not to hold grudges - or be bothered by small stuff or feel hurt and aggrieved.

Either way the longer s/he stays in his new job the less it will matter. Im shocked in this climate someone threw over a permanent job - and so badly they win’t be able to backpedal and go back! But there you go - people are different!

Enquiring

JustAThought wrote: »

It wasn’t a very nice or respectful way to treat his employer - or manager but as the OP said, the manager had already given his a presumBly good reference before he scoffed him pff and was rude on the phone.

Problem will be, for his NEXT job, he will still need two past job referees. Now his ex manager has a choice - tell the next referee how he broke his contract, left them in the lurch mid project and disn’t serve out his notice - or just simply say ‘he left extremely abruptly’ - says nothing but says a lot. If the question arises ‘would you employ them again’ now they have him/her Or would you hire him again - again - now there could be a snag - for the OP’s friend.

As regards payment he will be paid, he will be in a poor position if he has to go back and get his holidays due or if they were forgotten on the payroll - scoffing and hanging up dosn’t oil wheels.

He could also have a problem if he called in sick so as not to work and was paid for that - while working in his new job. The dates from the payroll/ revenue will highlight this and if/when a query is raised then this can be made tricky for him - fraudulently claiming / whatever. Now then he would have a proper HE black mark against him that his old manager could use. Again - entirely their discresion.

Regardless most people have bigger fish to fry but old employees can stick a spanner in the works and your prospects quickly enough - if they feel evil enough or are bothered. You are relying on a non revenge motivated ex manager or someone who maybe is mature enough not to hold grudges - or be bothered by small stuff or feel hurt and aggrieved.

Either way the longer s/he stays in his new job the less it will matter. Im shocked in this climate someone threw over a permanent job - and so badly they win’t be able to backpedal and go back! But there you go - people are different!

Let's hope none of this comes back on him. It doesn't seem like it will according to others. It's a higher paying role with more opportunities in fairness. I can see why he left but he should have done it on better terms.

And going on what I've been told, I'd say his old manager is the vindictive type. My friend says he's not bothered though and he's delighted his former manager is stewing over this.

silver2020

i

silver2020

If the previous employer did not treat staff well, then I would not be too concerned (would have been good to put the context in the first post)

Ireland is relatively small. In my industry (reasonably specialist) you'd meet competitors at various events and you'd have those servicing the specific trade chatting a fair bit. You get to know who is respected and who is not. You also get to know if a competitor has a revolving door when it comes to staff - so if someone applies from that company you'd know that it is because they don't treat staff well and you wouldn't need to bring that up.

So whilst employees at certain levels can get a reputation, employers can equally have a reputation and usually that would be known in that industry

440Hertz

Yeah that's very true, even in big sectors. You'd be well aware of companies that treat staff badly and as a result operate with high levels of churn.

I mean, it's certainly something that people would be aware of, in the IT sector for example, about very big employers.

There's a balance though and only the person in the situation can be the judge of that. There are plenty of situations where it can be better to just cut your losses, and plenty where doing that would be rather obnoxious.

salonfire

s1ippy wrote: »

I've left a few jobs without seeing out the requisite notice period. My reputation hasn't been damaged one jot and I'm highly sought after whenever I apply for new positions.

Pull the other one. Did they tell you how highly sought you were after you told them of walking away multiple times?