France vs Ireland...England $hat the bed..it's on!

UAEguy2020

lawred2 wrote: »

Were France that much better? Don't think so

For one thing their discipline was poor and before Stockdale's two back to back aberrations they were struggling..

Ireland pretty much played France into that game from that point forward.

They werent much better, they were better because they stuck to their game plan for the 80 mins whereas Ireland completly lost their shape in the 2nd half.



The first half we played the game to a tee but in the 2nd half we totally played into France's hands.



What Farrell is trying to do is deconstruct how we play the game and then rebuild afterwards, you can already see with the last 2 tries we scored you would never have seen that under Schmidt. We will continue to evolve and I believe in 4 years time we will be in good shape, this rebuild is a marathon not a sprint.

WhoamI2022

almostover wrote: »

He's a blindside flanker at international level and could be a very effective one at that. Henderson needs an injury free run, him and Ryan are our best lock pairing by some distance

Henderson is banned and not injured? Or am I wrong

Paul Smeenus

almostover wrote: »

He's a blindside flanker at international level and could be a very effective one at that. Henderson needs an injury free run, him and Ryan are our best lock pairing by some distance

Also, Hendo calling the lineout. That was a mess the day. And we might not get turned over three/four times making the hard yards off whatever scrappy lineout ball we did get.

weldoninhio

Shouldn’t Ireland replace England in thread title? Bottle jobs. Again.

UAEguy2020

Hurrache wrote: »

Erm, that's the problem.

It is, they will learn from this tonight and hopefully even in Twickenham later in the year we see that improve.

UAEguy2020

gooch2k9 wrote: »

All the other nations seem to have players come through into the national team at this age, even younger. Why don't we?

FFS.

Hurrache

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

They werent much better, they were better because they stuck to their game plan for the 80 mins whereas Ireland completly lost their shape in the 2nd half.

Not quite sure you're understanding how France were better and why Ireland were poor. France were simply better and Ireland were very poor, handling, set pieces, decision making, basic skills, the lot on the night.

WhoamI2022

gooch2k9 wrote: »

All the other nations seem to have players come through into the national team at this age, even younger. Why don't we?

We do as already pointed out. Ireland doesn’t have 14 professional clubs with billionaires supporting them to produce players. So yes France produce more player, ireland will never get to that level, unless we get everyone to play rugby instead of GAA, even then we are a country of 6 mil v 67 mil

gooch2k9

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ronan Kelleher, Andrew Porter, James Ryan, Caelan Doris and Jordan Larmour would like a word.

Ha, fair point!

FourFourRED

Thread title looking fairly embarrassing now

gooch2k9

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

We do as already pointed out. Ireland doesn’t have 14 professional clubs with billionaires supporting them to produce players. So yes France produce more player, ireland will never get to that level, unless we get everyone to play rugby instead of GAA, even then we are a country of 6 mil v 67 mil

Population isn't the answer but your other point most likely is. The distribution of players amongst sports. Wales have a similar number of clubs but rugby is the main focus there.

Hurrache

FourFourFM wrote: »

Thread title looking fairly embarrassing now

It's still pretty accurate in fairness. England gifted the opportunity to Ireland, the championship was on. Nothing changes that.

UAEguy2020

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Ha, fair point!

Keenan,Stockdale,Doris,Connors,Ryan,Porter from the starting team alone, plenty of talent at the provinces aswell.

UAEguy2020

Hurrache wrote: »

Not quite sure you're understanding how France were better and why Ireland were poor. France were simply better and Ireland were very poor, handling, set pieces, decision making, basic skills, the lot on the night.

I dont disagree with any of that, I dont see that the issue is? We were beaten by the better team on the day.

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Keenan,Stockdale,Doris,Connors,Ryan,Porter from the starting team alone, plenty of talent at the provinces aswell.

The fact that a 24 year old has just become joint 9th top try scorer ever is testament that we give youth a chance

Hurrache

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I dont disagree with any of that, I dont see that the issue is? We were beaten by the better team on the day.

Certainly, that's true. But Ireland made it easier for France. You don't mind a loss as much if the team played to their best given what was on offer, which didn't happen tonight.

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

The fact that a 24 year old has just become joint 9th top try scorer ever is testament that we give youth a chance

Sadly that just doesnt fit the narrative.

UAEguy2020

Hurrache wrote: »

Certainly, that's true. But Ireland made it easier for France. You don't mind a loss as much if the team played to their best given what was on offer, which didn't happen tonight.

If we played in the 2nd half like we did in the first and lost I would have walked away happy. Im just annoyed as France were really there for the taking but we just completly lost our structure and France took full advantage.

mr_edge_to_you

pc7 wrote: »

Ntamack is 21, that is just so hard to believe, amazing talent.

I still think we're still very slow to give yound lads a go.
Hugo Keenan is 24
Will Connor is 24

Not quite there same as developing younger players but Ireland invested in a player who would only be eligible to play at 28 (JGP).

Sometimes I wonder does the central contract system inhibit long term development. Does it create congestion at the top level? For example, if the Union have invested in a player at €400k a year (or more) and he's not playing well, what can they do? If that player is dropped what damage does it do to the brand. Be under no illusion, the brand is essential. Its drives revenue for the IRFU and the IRFU is a big business. I can't think of any other reason why younger players are not offered opportunities to compete against older more experienced players.

ElisaAtWar

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If we played in the 2nd half like we did in the first and lost I would have walked away happy. Im just annoyed as France were really there for the taking but we just completly lost our structure and France took full advantage.

Structure. Elaborate

StevenToast

Change the thread title...

Its embarrassing

UAEguy2020

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I still think we're still very slow to give yound lads a go.
Hugo Keenan is 24
Will Connor is 24

Not quite there same as developing younger players but Ireland invested in a player who would only be eligible to play at 28 (JGP).

Sometimes I wonder does the central contract system inhibit long term development. Does it create congestion at the top level? For example, if the Union have invested in a player at €400k a year (or more) and he's not playing well, what can they do? If that player is dropped what damage does it do to the brand. Be under no illusion, the brand is essential. Its drives revenue for the IRFU and the IRFU is a big business. I can't think of any other reason why younger players are not offered opportunities to compete against older more experienced players.

Ryan,Porter,Stockdale made their debuts at 20-21, Doris 21-22, Baird if fit will probably make is debut at 20-21. I think it has been an issue for a long time but in the last 5 year I do think we have gotten better at it. Personally I would like Farrell to find a winning formula with the current team and then add youngsters to it.

WhoamI2022

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I still think we're still very slow to give yound lads a go.
Hugo Keenan is 24
Will Connor is 24

Not quite there same as developing younger players but Ireland invested in a player who would only be eligible to play at 28 (JGP).

Sometimes I wonder does the central contract system inhibit long term development. Does it create congestion at the top level? For example, if the Union have invested in a player at €400k a year (or more) and he's not playing well, what can they do? If that player is dropped what damage does it do to the brand. Be under no illusion, the brand is essential. Its drives revenue for the IRFU and the IRFU is a big business. I can't think of any other reason why younger players are not offered opportunities to compete against older more experienced players.

Keenan and Connors both played international 7s and hence why later introduction

JGP came in for Leinster who had a gap at9, option is buy a player in who could never play for Ireland or get one who could in3 years play.100% right decision to get a guy who could play in years

mr_edge_to_you

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ronan Kelleher, Andrew Porter, James Ryan, Caelan Doris and Jordan Larmour would like a word.

I'm probably going to take a hammering on my post above and while the above point it accurate, I still think younger players should be given more opportunities especially when more "senior" players are going through purple patches. We went to RWC 2019 hoping a load of players would find their form.

mr_edge_to_you

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ryan,Porter,Stockdale made their debuts at 20-21, Doris 21-22, Baird if fit will probably make is debut at 20-21. I think it has been an issue for a long time but in the last 5 year I do think we have gotten better at it. Personally I would like Farrell to find a winning formula with the current team and then add youngsters to it.

Does this not serve to highlight that if you give the guys a start a few years younger that they mature quicker and become better international players?

3 years is quite a long time in what is effectively a 12/15 year career.

Burkie1203

Thoughts.

Front row is a bit of a concern going forward. Our two best front row are both THs

2nd row - Beirne was excellent tonight. Our best player IMO. Ryan was very good too

Backrow - Tonights trio i Think it has potential to develop as a unit. But we don't have any world class (or remotely close) backrows currently.

Half back - Think we need to start giving starts to other players.

Centre - we have 4 very good centres.

Back 3 - some good talent. Just need to find the right combination. Would put Keenan at 15 v Wales.

UAEguy2020

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Does this not serve to highlight that if you give the guys a start a few years younger that they mature quicker and become better international players?

3 years is quite a long time in what is effectively a 12/15 year career.

I agree with that, you also need to remember that players like Keenan, Connors etc werent ready earlier.

UAEguy2020

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I'm probably going to take a hammering on my post above and while the above point it accurate, I still think younger players should be given more opportunities especially when more "senior" players are going through purple patches. We went to RWC 2019 hoping a load of players would find their form.

I also think we should go to a world cup with a younger squad, its no good having experience when all that experience knows is bottling it at previous world cups.

kingofthekong

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Thoughts.

Front row is a bit of a concern going forward. Our two best front row are both THs

2nd row - Beirne was excellent tonight. Our best player IMO. Ryan was very good too

Backrow - Tonights trio i Think it has potential to develop as a unit. But we don't have any world class (or remotely close) backrows currently.

Half back - Think we need to start giving starts to other players.

Centre - we have 4 very good centres.

Back 3 - some good talent. Just need to find the right combination. Would put Keenan at 15 v Wales.

Beirne was good but Ryan was epic ....., best game Beirne has played in a while

AdamD

Stockdale's mentality in defence is infuriating. He never puts in hits. For all of the mistakes today, the first try annoyed me the most because hes just not interested. 9 times out of 10 he isn't going to stop Dupont, but Jesus Christ put a ****ing hit in on the bloke. Worst case scenario its a free hit on their star 9 - instead Stockdale shows 0 interest and Dupont even gets to make the conversion easier.

Make him watch Heaslip's tackle vs Scotland on repeat. Though from watching Stockdale for a few years its fairly clear he has very little interest in showing commitment in defence.

gooch2k9

AdamD wrote: »

Stockdale's mentality in defence is infuriating. He never puts in hits. For all of the mistakes today, the first try annoyed me the most because hes just not interested. 9 times out of 10 he isn't going to stop Dupont, but Jesus Christ put a ****ing hit in on the bloke. Worst case scenario its a free hit on their star 9 - instead Stockdale shows 0 interest and Dupont even gets to make the conversion easier.

Make him watch Heaslip's tackle vs Scotland on repeat. Though from watching Stockdale for a few years its fairly clear he has very little interest in showing commitment in defence.

The Ulster game in Bath this year showed he has the hunger to get there, he just doesn't make the hit, or doesn't make the hit stick.

Paul Smeenus

kingofthekong wrote: »

Beirne was good but Ryan was epic ....., best game Beirne has played in a while

Agreed on Beirne. Not the strognest, but really put in a rake of work.. Ryan needs to sort out his lineout calling ASAP. He was absolutely monumental in the last twenty, when the game was gone, running about, ragdolling people. In charge of the lineout, not so much. Very poor lineout in the opposition's ten to points ratio. That first attempt at a maul was absolute mince. On the BBC, Brian Moore in commentary and POC at full time were both aghast at our setpiece.

ElisaAtWar

So that was it. So many really talented players let down by what you would expect. We need to move on. Everyone k my ew Stockdale was going to be rubbish so what's the shock there. Everybody knew Murray would do nothing other than the basics. What more do our coaches need to see

rooney30

Matt Williams made a valid point afterwards about a talent deficit . How many of our current players are at the top table of world rugby . Ryan probably the only one.

lawrencesummers

We need a better captain. - the display upon being substituted was embarrassing.

We need better leadership in the pack - lineout and scrum got demolished and never got to grips with what was happening, for a guy with 100 caps Healy should have more to add outside of the grunt work.

We need a better coach. The way we lost our shape was brutal.

ElisaAtWar

Ok. I guess the highlight of this thread is just the sad nature of a title. Typical rugby school.

KaneToad

rooney30 wrote: »

Matt Williams made a valid point afterwards about a talent deficit . How many of our current players are at the top table of world rugby . Ryan probably the only one.

Ringrose too

Paul Smeenus

lawrencesummers wrote: »

We need a better captain. - the display upon being substituted was embarrassing.

We need better leadership in the pack - lineout and scrum got demolished and never got to grips with what was happening, for a guy with 100 caps Healy should have more to add outside of the grunt work.

We need a better coach. The way we lost our shape was brutal.

Why would you blame Healy? Ryan and Stander (who was my Irish MOTM) need to shoulder blame. And some of the decisions by Sexton - particularly to have Murray kick at goal from 57m and the decision not to take the points at the end of the second half - were just rubbish.

I'm prepared to let Farrell have a bit more time. It does look like we're slowly moving towards something.

theVersatile

Could be worse guys. We could be Australia

Losty Dublin

Oh well. Listen though, we may have lost this time round but Andy Farrell has plenty of time to regroup and rebuild the Irish squad for 2021. A good ten months weeks, actually.

ElisaAtWar

Explain to us Mr Smeenus. On what count do you base your opinion on

AbusesToilets

Hope can see a continuation of a more open style in the autumn cup. We still struggle to execute some fundamental attacking basics, passing before contact, running good supporting lines, make passes out of contact to those runners.

It's noticeable how comparatively poor we counter attacking, relative to other top teams.

ElisaAtWar

Shat the bed. Such class kuang. Private school educated?

Paul Smeenus

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Explain to us Mr Smeenus. On what count do you base your opinion on

What do you mean what count? Our setpiece, which when we were on song, was an absolute wespon, and delivered more often than not, was very poor today. I think our leaders in the pack bear a great deal of responsibility for today's loss, albeit Ryan and Stander both played very well as individual, responsibility aside.

Trey13

Don’t typically post on this, long time observer. Some very fair points being made here tonight. Think Matt Williams hit the nail on the head, we’re going through a bit of a talent deficit. I’m not sure we have any player who can say they’re the best in their position going into the Lions tour (nevermind the whole world). James Ryan probably the one in the conversation, but even at I’d rather Itoje and one could make a case for Jonny Gray or AWJ.

Our centers are very good. Our halfbacks are really poor though. Murray hasn’t been good for a long time and Sexton is passed his peak. A year on from the World Cup last year and have we really given anyone else a fair crack at it? Hopefully we see someone in at 9/10 over the next few weeks.

Overall, I don’t know how to feel. Feels like we’re in between cycles and just waiting for something to happen. Hopefully it turns around for us.

lawrencesummers

I think Stockdale is close to world class.

He’s not a 15, but he’s as good an attacking winger as exists.

Trey13

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I think Stockdale is close to world class.

He’s not a 15, but he’s as good an attacking winger as exists.

Two years ago I would have agreed. But I’d certainly rather Jonny May, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams and Jack Nowell. That’s not even counting the Southern Hemisphere talent.

lawrencesummers

Trey13 wrote: »

Two years ago I would have agreed. But I’d certainly rather Jonny May, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams and Jack Nowell. That’s not even counting the Southern Hemisphere talent.

That’s because they are competent defenders and attackers who can play 15. The only thing stockdale is brilliant at is attacking, and he’s somewhere between average and bad at playing 15 and defending.

Plus you left Hogg and Teddy T out of that list.

Trey13

lawrencesummers wrote: »

That’s because they are competent defenders and attackers who can play 15. The only thing stockdale is brilliant at is attacking, and he’s somewhere between average and bad at playing 15 and defending.

Plus you left Hogg and Teddy T out of that list.

I thought you were talking about Stockdale as a winger. He isn’t even in the conversation as a 15. Would rather Conway and Larmour in a green 15 jersey.

Lucy8080

Stockdale wasn't the reason we lost . He will certainly have better games.

The scrum going backwards, the lineout shambles , missing touch and bad on field decisions are all within the basic gifts an International team should/need to be on top of their job to win.

Stockdale had a bad game and still delivered a try. Maybe 15 is not his position,but the rest of the team need to have a good look at their part in last nights defeat. The basic error's were frustrating.

Still, we put 27pts on the board away to France.

It was so frustrating to watch, we had the winning of that game yet contrived to cough up situations that were to our advantage, again and again and again.

Delighted that Stockdale had some little plus to take out of a bad day. The team had enough opportunities to rectify any mistakes he made.