France vs Ireland...England $hat the bed..it's on!

OldRio

Clegg wrote: »

Going for the line just before half time wasn't a bad decision. We would have scored a try had Wayne Barnes done his job properly. He awarded them a penalty despite their player clearly turning the ball over while on his knees. I just can't understand what Barnes was thinking. He was looking straight at it.

It was an incorrect decision. Take your points before half time, go into half time on a high or let the French turn us over and give them a boost at half time. You also have eliminated the ref from the equation.

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sexton does have form for being petulant when things don't go his way. Also look at how he interacts with refs. Its not a good look from your captain.

I'd largely agree with this tbh, and it was a concern I had prior to the captaincy being named. The 2 incidents that come to mind are when he lost his rag (as Leinster lost their discipline) in Thomond awhile back, and where he said something like “I know you hate me but you have to talk to me” to a ref.

This is admittedly mild in comparison (and I still would've picked him as captain), but at a minimum, it's not a good look.

WhoamI2022

OldRio wrote: »

It was an incorrect decision. Take your points before half time, go into half time on a high or let the French turn us over and give them a boost at half time. You also have eliminated the ref from the equation.

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it

WhoamI2022

aloooof wrote: »

I'd largely agree with this tbh, and it was a concern I had prior to the captaincy being named. The 2 incidents that come to mind are when he lost his rag (as Leinster lost their discipline) in Thomond awhile back, and where he said something like “I know you hate me but you have to talk to me” to a ref.

This is admittedly mild in comparison (and I still would've picked him as captain), but at a minimum, it's not a good look.

He said that comment after POM was taken off in the Aus tour, POM was the captain up till then. But sure never let the truth get in the way of a good story

aloooof

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

He said that comment after POM was taken off in the Aus tour, POM was the captain up till then. But sure never let the truth get in the way of a good story

What exactly did I post that isn't true??

How bad was Kearney as a pundit on tv on Saturday btw - absolutely pathetic.

Refused to be critical of anyone and citing the old "greasy ball" chestnut.

mr_edge_to_you

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

He should've been pulled up on that carry on years ago by his coaches. I remember it happening before when younger players were coming on. Its not appropriate in a team environment and there's no way its helpful to younger players.

I see Tony Ward also picked up on it. He also references an incident in which he kicked a water bottle away when being subbed for Jack Carty a few years back. Quite a poor reflection and I genuinely don't think it is helpful in a modern professional environment.

Edit: I referred to prior instances of tantrums in a previous post but couldn't recall it. This is one that stood out for me.

Paul Smeenus

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it

I think a great many of us thought it was a poor decision right as it was happening.

The same with Murray's 57m penalty attempt.

Whatever about Sexton looking grumpy or whatever coming off, I thought there was some underwhelming decision-making from him as captain.

Burkie1203

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The same with Murray's 57m penalty attempt.

Elliott Daly landed a few really long range penalties in the HC QF.

Murray had the range. It was a good decision to have a crack. If it goes over and we have a chance to build the score 3 6 9 (very possible as France are as good at giving away penalties as they are at cutting teams open) then who knows what happens thereafter.

OldRio

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it

Not on the Monday review for the players I'd imagine.

WhoamI2022

OldRio wrote: »

Not on the Monday review for the players I'd imagine.

The decision to go for the cornor instead of points is going on a number of seasons now. If you listen to ex-Pro on the captains run the day before they go around the pitch and make some plans. I expect the day before if they got to that position on the pitch they would kick to the cornor.

If it was 2013 and they kicked to the cornor it would be news worthy. At this stage I have no idea why people are surprised when Ireland opts for the cornor.

Yeah_Right

aloooof wrote: »

I'd largely agree with this tbh, and it was a concern I had prior to the captaincy being named. The 2 incidents that come to mind are when he lost his rag (as Leinster lost their discipline) in Thomond awhile back, and where he said something like “I know you hate me but you have to talk to me” to a ref.

This is admittedly mild in comparison (and I still would've picked him as captain), but at a minimum, it's not a good look.

I also remember him on a few occasions throwing his hands up and down and slapping the ground when he felt he was hit late. It always reminded me of a toddler throwing a tantrum.

Paul Smeenus

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Elliott Daly landed a few really long range penalties in the HC QF.

Murray had the range. It was a good decision to have a crack. If it goes over and we have a chance to build the score 3 6 9 (very possible as France are as good at giving away penalties as they are at cutting teams open) then who knows what happens thereafter.

I understand the logic. I disagree that it was a good decision.

Paul Smeenus

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

The decision to go for the cornor instead of points is going on a number of seasons now. If you listen to ex-Pro on the captains run the day before they go around the pitch and make some plans. I expect the day before if they got to that position on the pitch they would kick to the cornor.

If it was 2013 and they kicked to the cornor it would be news worthy. At this stage I have no idea why people are surprised when Ireland opts for the cornor.

Because of the context (more likely to score points right on the death of the first half) and the fact that the lineout/maul had failed more than it had succeeded in the first half.

OldRio

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

The decision to go for the cornor instead of points is going on a number of seasons now. If you listen to ex-Pro on the captains run the day before they go around the pitch and make some plans. I expect the day before if they got to that position on the pitch they would kick to the cornor.

If it was 2013 and they kicked to the cornor it would be news worthy. At this stage I have no idea why people are surprised when Ireland opts for the cornor.

I'll leave you to it.

phog

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Elliott Daly landed a few really long range penalties in the HC QF.

Murray had the range. It was a good decision to have a crack. If it goes over and we have a chance to build the score 3 6 9 (very possible as France are as good at giving away penalties as they are at cutting teams open) then who knows what happens thereafter.

Deciding to go for that long range penalty made it harder to fathom their thinking of not taking the 3 points before halftime.

Absolutely baffling from them.

Skeetur

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I also remember him on a few occasions throwing his hands up and down and slapping the ground when he felt he was hit late. It always reminded me of a toddler throwing a tantrum.

I think the captaincy has been good for him personally though. He's improved his temperament a lot and you don't really see the tantrums and trying to milk penalties any more.

Burkie1203

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I understand the logic. I disagree that it was a good decision.

And if the ball went between the sticks?

Burkie1203

phog wrote: »

Deciding to go for that long range penalty made it harder to fathom their thinking of not taking the 3 points before halftime.

Absolutely baffling from them.

What decisions made in first few minutes don't necessarily have to follow on 45 minutes later

Momentum swings etc. Numerous times before they made the same decisions just before HT and scored.

UAEguy2020

D15er wrote: »

Again, they'd all be dropped if their opposition were better.

It's disappointing that we've yet to produce any real test level out half in the last decade but that's where we are and it's no reason to play inferior players simply because they're younger.

Their inferior because they don’t play, the only experience they get for Ireland is how to get splinters in their buttocks. If you don’t play how are you going to improve.

I strongly remember the same being said about Marmion until Murray got injured, got a chance and delivered against England in 2017 and beat the All Blacks 1 year later.

We have produced plenty of test level 10s but like with any player they aren’t going to improve sitting in the stands.

Paul Smeenus

Burkie1203 wrote: »

And if the ball went between the sticks?

Then it's a good outcome from a poor decision. That doesn't retroactively make it a good decision. Equally, it's quite possible to get bad outcomes from the right decisions.

UAEguy2020

phog wrote: »

Deciding to go for that long range penalty made it harder to fathom their thinking of not taking the 3 points before halftime.

Absolutely baffling from them.

I think it was the wrong decision as well and was baffled by it but the two are completely separate. They probably felt they should take whatever points they can get at the beginning of the match when we didn’t know what team we were playing but by the end of the half maybe the players thought that France were there for the taking and it was worth the gamble to go for the try and not only go ahead at half time but also send France a massive physiological blow, instead it appeared to sadly have the opposite effect which I think you can see by the French players reaction to winning the penalty.

phog

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What decisions made in first few minutes don't necessarily have to follow on 45 minutes later

Momentum swings etc. Numerous times before they made the same decisions just before HT and scored.

I'm well aware of it but it was a gimme and we turned it down and came away with nothing which was a momentum swing in the wrong direction, especially as France had only scored a penalty. Ours would have cancelled that one out.

TomsOnTheRoof

I really don't understand why people are getting worked up. Sexton acted petulantly and it's not the first time. As captain he needs to be less prone to tantrums.

molloyjh

Re the decision to go for the posts at the start, I think that was correct. Murray reckoned he could get it so have a crack. Its early in the game so no great shakes if he misses.

The one just before half time I disagreed with, but I get the logic. They knew France were going to get scores so they wanted to maximise their return. It makes sense, even if I don't personally agree. The French bench was a distance better than ours so we really needed to be ahead come 60 mins. I wouldn't be too critical of it. Especially as we put France under a good bit of pressure of the back of it and really should have been awarded a penalty under the sticks and a yellow for Willemse. Had that happened I'm not sure people would be anywhere near as incensed by the decision.

Re Sexton as captain, he has totally mellowed in his approach to referees. We saw that on Saturday where he was pretty chilled in his dealings with Barnes. Plenty of top class players, particularly 10s, have that petulant streak to them. Biggar and Farrell both have it. Its a part of what makes them the competitors they are. I'd rather that than the complete nonchalance from someone like Russell, smiling and laughing after putting his side under pressure with a ridiculously stupid attempt at a volley inside their half. Sexton has tried to control that behaviour better and certainly has from what I've seen.

Zzippy

chief orman wrote: »

Also Sexton has no bottle. That is the reason he turned down the close in penalty before half time. Cannot take the pressure. Went for one 60 yards out where there was no pressure. A complete pussy.

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Bazzo

Unless I'm mistaken the penalty before half time was also in Sexton's dodgy spot. It's to the right of the posts around the 15m line that he seems to inextricably miss from isn't it?

declanflynn

glasso wrote: »

How bad was Kearney as a pundit on tv on Saturday btw - absolutely pathetic.

Refused to be critical of anyone and citing the old "greasy ball" chestnut.

He was very good actually!

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken the penalty before half time was also in Sexton's dodgy spot. It's to the right of the posts around the 15m line that he seems to inextricably miss from isn't it?

the All-Blacks 2013 spot?

Sexton should be criticised for his other errors, not making this call.

It was a ballsy call and he went for it.

If Ireland got the try he would be a legend.

It's not like England's kicking to the corner against Wales which effectively put them out of the world cup in 2015

This call did not decide the game

Ireland, not just Sexton, make several key errors and the French were able to capitalise with good running and score tries

They have more talented and able players than Ireland overall currently. You can say what you want about Ireland being ahead in this stat or that - France deserved to win and did.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

Re the decision to go for the posts at the start, I think that was correct. Murray reckoned he could get it so have a crack. Its early in the game so no great shakes if he misses.

The one just before half time I disagreed with, but I get the logic. They knew France were going to get scores so they wanted to maximise their return. It makes sense, even if I don't personally agree. The French bench was a distance better than ours so we really needed to be ahead come 60 mins. I wouldn't be too critical of it. Especially as we put France under a good bit of pressure of the back of it and really should have been awarded a penalty under the sticks and a yellow for Willemse. Had that happened I'm not sure people would be anywhere near as incensed by the decision.

Re Sexton as captain, he has totally mellowed in his approach to referees. We saw that on Saturday where he was pretty chilled in his dealings with Barnes. Plenty of top class players, particularly 10s, have that petulant streak to them. Biggar and Farrell both have it. Its a part of what makes them the competitors they are. I'd rather that than the complete nonchalance from someone like Russell, smiling and laughing after putting his side under pressure with a ridiculously stupid attempt at a volley inside their half. Sexton has tried to control that behaviour better and certainly has from what I've seen.

I don’t know if that’s really the case , if we had the same sort performance as everyone else did against France in the first half throughout this tournament than yes the 3 would be the right call but we were probably the only team to really control the match vs France so far and the players probably thought their pressure deserved more than just being a point behind at half time.

Personally I don’t think the French bench was that impressive at all, I think it’s just a cliche to say so (I know this from even speaking to some French fans I know from other rugby forums) and in fact if you look at all the matches so far France haven’t won the 2nd half in any match and if anything just being in touch at half time was an okay outcome. What let us down was completely losing our shape at the start of the 2nd half as France won 11-0 in that period and it gave France a foothold in the match.

One thing I must say is we could do with a captain who is much better at speaking to the ref as if we do the ref might be more inclined to give us the benefit of the doubt, even the Williamse moment on half time for instance.

declanflynn

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Then it's a good outcome from a poor decision. That doesn't retroactively make it a good decision. Equally, it's quite possible to get bad outcomes from the right decisions.

What would people say if Murray's penalty went over and they scored a try from the penalty just before half time?

WhoamI2022

declanflynn wrote: »

What would people say if Murray's penalty went over and they scored a try from the penalty just before half time?

Nothing, they would have found fault in some other part of the game and concentrated on that. It doesn't matter what is good in the game, we should only concentrate on everything that went wrong......this is the way

UAEguy2020

glasso wrote: »

yes we would be ahead of wales still as it finished - I was incorrect therer

point still stands that Ireland were very fortuitous to beat Scotland this year

backwards trend continued unfortunately whilst others have progressed and don't see the solutions in terms of the player side on the near horizon

There is no backwards trend, we are in a season of transition after a World Cup. I still can’t believe how people with any knowledge of rugby can’t see that, we have a new way of playing and guess what, it’s going to take time to get it right.

declanflynn

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Nothing, they would have found fault in some other part of the game and concentrated on that. It doesn't matter what is good in the game, we should only concentrate on everything that went wrong......this is the way

Correct, anyway I think in a few weeks time when someone mentions Sexton and Paris in the same sentence only one play will come into people's minds

declanflynn

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think a great many of us thought it was a poor decision right as it was happening.

The same with Murray's 57m penalty attempt.

Whatever about Sexton looking grumpy or whatever coming off, I thought there was some underwhelming decision-making from him as captain.

Murray was close with that penalty, he should be having a go with every penalty that's between 50 and 70 metres out

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There is no backwards trend, we are in a season of transition after a World Cup. I still can’t believe how people with any knowledge of rugby can’t see that, we have a new way of playing and guess what, it’s going to take time to get it right.

it's not as if 1/2 the squad retired after the world cup lol

rubbishy excuse

new coach (who was already there under the old coach) and Ireland box kick a little less than before - that's about it.

Ireland have gone backwards this season again.

two years in a row.

that's a trend.

UAEguy2020

glasso wrote: »

France and Scotland have progressed although Ireland should still be able to beat Scotland currently (hopefully?) France will continue to get better I think after getting over a decade of having a subpar coaching setup.

England still have Ireland's number.

They might, they might not. The year after a World Cup is meaningless in regards to judging where a team is at as so many teams are doing different things with their team.

France might get better but then again it also might be a false dawn (if I had a euro for the amount of times people said “France are back” during the last WC cycle) I don’t think it is as they have a competent coaching staff but that’s why next years 6N is so important at judging where everyone is at as all these excuses post World Cup are off as everyone should be at a point where results really matter.

Scotland definitely have improved and could prove to be very difficult next year.

Honestly it’s like Wales and Scotland swapped the way both teams have played this 6N, Scotland are tough to play against whereas Wales while trying to play nice rugby are very flaky and always have huge mistakes in them.

Even italy have improved but it’s the little things they have improved in that you really need to focus on the little things to see, I think in a year or 2 people will start seeing the results of this improvement.

UAEguy2020

glasso wrote: »

it's not as if 1/2 the squad retired after the world cup lol

rubbishy excuse

new coach (who was already there under the old coach) and Ireland box kick a little less than before - that's about it.

Ireland have gone backwards this season again.

two years in a row.

that's a trend.

They are fundamentally trying to change the way they are playing, if you can’t see this then there really is little point in trying to discuss this with you.

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

They are fundamentally trying to change the way they are playing, if you can’t see this then there really is little point in trying to discuss this with you.

pathetic attitude sir

Ireland have gone backwards (again), transition or not

it's 1 year later with some new players but the older ones still in key positions, just older and less able than last year and no credible options on the table to replace them

Looking at Saturday's game the talent that France have vs Ireland's currently is a fairly pitiful contrast unfortunately and now they don't have an incompetent coaching staff in place for the first time in over a decade so can use it

UAEguy2020

glasso wrote: »

pathetic attitude sir

Ireland have gone backwards (again), transition or not

it's 1 year later with some new players but the older ones still in key positions, just older and less able than last year and no credible options on the table to replace them

Like I previously said.

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Like I previously said.

head in the sand stuff

WhoamI2022

Ireland number 5 in the World in new ranking....probably about right.......

Shows how much Ireland has progressed when we are all doom and gloom but in the top 5 in World :-)

WhoamI2022

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Ireland number 5 in the World in new ranking....probably about right.......

Shows how much Ireland has progressed when we are all doom and gloom but in the top 5 in World :-)

come on - the rugby rankings are not exactly to be lauded or even taken seriously in a sport which so few countries are in a position to actually compete in effectively and also so dysfunctional in general where Ireland can be ranked as world number one having had England mangle them with 57 points put up against them two weeks before

5th would also mean yet another 1/4 final exit in a WC - so would not be citing that as some positive

UAEguy2020

And a bit of perspective, we were 8th in the world after we lost to France after the last RWC. At this point in time 5th place is about right but like I’ve said we are still behind the others interms of where we are in our building process, the next 6N like I’ve said will definitely tell us where everyone is at. All I hope for now is Farrell to build abit of momentum over these next 4 games and we go into the next 6N with momentum.

WhoamI2022

glasso wrote: »

come on - the rugby rankings are not exactly to be lauded or even taken seriously in a sport which so few countries are in a position to actually compete in effectively and also so dysfunctional in general where Ireland can be ranked as world number one having had England mangle them with 57 points put up against them two weeks before

5th would also mean yet another 1/4 final exit in a WC - so would not be citing that as some positive

You have to love the Irish, can find a negative no matter what the topic is :rolleyes:

WhoamI2022

I seen a question from a South African which was interesting.

Would you take a Grand Slam over the next 4 years or a qtr final win? I would take the Grand Slam personally.

UAEguy2020

I would take both like Wales did in 2019.

Idbatterim

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

I seen a question from a South African which was interesting.

Would you take a Grand Slam over the next 4 years or a qtr final win? I would take the Grand Slam personally.

quater final win, the grandslam wouldnt surprise me too much, with what has happened to wales, its likely down to a match v the english....

WhoamI2022

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

You have to love the Irish, can find a negative no matter what the topic is :rolleyes:

if you can't see that that was a joke at the time and in no way reflected the reality of the situation, so therefore could not be appreciated then I just don't know....

realism....

momentum...

Ireland had great success in the 6 nations under Schmidt for a number of years where you had a poor Scotland, up-and-down Wales, a headless France in complete disarray and an England that Ireland could beat consistently enough for a time

This was all amazing stuff and lovely to enjoy excepting when the hype got out of control after the NZ friendly in Dublin and the cart came off the horse for several reasons (loss of player form, predictability and staleness)

Now England have the upper-hand against Ireland consistently (over-powered) and a more organised France are on the up-and-up with a world-class half-back pairing that will serve them for the next 10 years (barring injury) along with talent across the park to support them.

In contrast Ireland's key half-back pairing are yesterday's men and there is currently no real international-class pair out there to replace them. Crisis there.

So that leaves Ireland as 3rd dog in the six nations (at best) where before they were comfortably 1 or 2 before (so most likely out of the real championship hunt every year for the next while)

On the global picture you add NZ and South Africa being too far ahead to get near for this world-cup cycle from an Irish point of view

Yeah_Right

glasso wrote: »

So that leaves Ireland as 3rd dog in the six nations (at best) where before they were comfortably 1 or 2 before (so most likely out of the real championship hunt every year for the next while)

On the global picture you add NZ and South Africa being too far ahead to get near for this world-cup cycle from an Irish point of view

Its 3 years till the next RWC. A lot can change in that time. NZ beat SA 57-0 in one match in 2017 and 2 years later the Boks are World Champs. There will be a lot more ups and downs throughout this world cup cycle.