V&V Forum Feedback Thread

Faith

Hi folks,

I'm not a frequent visitor to these parts so forgive my appearing suddenly!

We - the Soc CMods - are aware that Tar.Aldarion has been holding the fort here in moderating terms for quite a while (thanks Tar!), and we'd like to rectify that by adding an extra set of hands or two to help out. However, we want to be sure that we add moderators who will uphold and respect the values of the forum, so we're asking for your feedback on how you'd like the forum to be.

We're aware that Veg*nism can be contentious and controversial, so a few things we wondered were:

- How would you like the forum to be generally? A safe haven for veg*ns to chat in a fairly protected space, with the risk of it being an echo chamber, or a forum that's open to all views, even if they may be contradictory to veg*n views? It would be really helpful if you could state if you're a veg*n or non-veg*n in your replies on this.

- Does it feel important that potential moderators be veg*n or are you happy to have non-veg*ns who are impartial and respectful of veg*n lifestyles?

- Any other major things that you'd like to flag up? If it's particularly personal towards a poster (e.g. "X is a troll" type comments) or sensitive, please feel free to PM the CMods directly. We are Big Bag of Chips, bluewolf, Dizzyblonde, Dravokivich, and Faith.

Thanks! We'll keep an eye on this thread and let it run for a while to get a range of views and feedback.

Thelonious Monk

Any discussion tends to become all about one farmer poster after a while and most of us just can't deal with it any more. One poster shuts down nearly every discussion. It's really odd creepy behaviour and it means no real discussion is possible.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Any discussion tends to become all about one farmer poster after a while and most of us just can't deal with it any more. One poster shuts down nearly every discussion. It's really odd creepy behaviour and it means no real discussion is possible.

Thanks Thelonious. But the attacks on those who you disagree with have been well noted already.

And its not just about that forum tbf - your regularly go on anti--farming spieles in many other forums.

Unearthly

I'm a vegan

I don't think it would be correct to only allow vegetarian or vegan only posters however there is a very fine line between honest discussion and the deceitful low level trolling that flies under the charter.

As a regular in the soccer forum, there are some world class low level trolls in that forum but some of the ones in this forum would make them look like amateurs

Deceitful, dishonest with an aim to bait then when called out on it, act like they are the victim and the other people who call them out on it get the sanctions from the mods

The new mods don't need to be vegetarian or vegan, but they need to be street wise to some of the ****housery that happens so they'd need experience in similar forums that have had these issues like Affer Hours/Soccer. I'd love Beasty to be a mod but he's an administrator and probably no interest but I liked how he tackled issues before in hard forums

Faith

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks Thelonious. But the attacks by those who you disagree with have been well noted already.

And its not just about that forum tbf - your regularly go o anti--farming spiles in many other forums.

Mod Note: gozunda, this is a feedback thread. It is not a place to attack others for their feedback or to post about issues on other forums. Either post constructive feedback relating to the forum or don't post on this thread, thanks.

gozunda

A lot of the content of the forum is directed at farming with a large amount of negative criticism

Perhaps not surprisingly on such topics - those who have a knowledge in that area do get involved in these discussions.

By and large posters do not engage on other vegan related threads in this forum.

Currently there are just 2 active agricultural related threads on the forum. These seem to be the most active threads overall.

On both of them there have been direct attacks on those who are are replying. Currently there are several replies from very small number of posters with overt personal abuse. These don't seem to have been acted on despite a recent note that no such personal abuse is allowed.

That needs to be looked at.

NcdJd

Would it be an idea to split the forum up and have a separate Vegetarian forum and have the Vegan forum as a separate space ?

Threads like Milk and Dairy = Cruelty do not really encourage posters who are vegetarians but who also consume dairy products.

Most exchanges are OK but there are a number of posters who just seem to launch into attacks on farming at every opertunity and can be quite nasty. These users need to be infracted as it just makes the whole forum a negative experience. Farmers could have some valuable input into some of the discussions on here from a food production point if view and information about where to source local produce or offer advice on growing crops etc.

Dizzyblonde

Hi, I'm not vegetarian or vegan.

As Faith said, any problems with particular posters would best be dealt with by PM and we'll take your views seriously.

I'm of the view that the forum would benefit from having at least one mod who isn't vegan/vegetarian but respects the lifestyle. That would mean they're completely impartial and couldn't be accused of favouring either side when things get heated. Keeping the forum running smoothly while enabling healthy discussion would be their aim.

Lady Haywire

There definitely needs to be a mod which is neither vegan or vegetarian. Not slighting Tar but it does come across as the v*gan posters being let off with more leniency. In particular there's been direct abuse in posts & the posts were just deleted with no sanction (But perhaps they were & it's not been shown on thread) along with inciteful posts left up and blatant ignoring of trolling Now this does happen on both sides, but the constant sniping should have been called up & the posters in question either banned or warned. I understand it's a smaller forum in terms of posters & banning of posters would make it smaller still, but the fact remains that some posters simply make it a very unwelcoming forum to post in.

The fact that farmers have to come on here to defend their sector because of the inciteful posts is rather telling in the route this forum seems to be going down. In the past I posted here under a different username & it was a pleasant forum then. Now every time we're defending something or simply reiterating that X is not the norm, it descends into the same mockery & allegations of abuse/the belief that farmers don't care about their stock, only money.

Thelonious Monk

Yeah see it's basically a farmers V vegetarian/vegan forum now in any discussion, and we are never going to agree on anything. So I'm failing to see the point in the forum at this stage, apart from sharing recipes etc, as soon as the philosophy behind your choices are discussed it turns into an argument with farmers.

gozunda

I believe the point of all forums on boards is discussion. It is a great pity that those offering a different pov or giving factual information are frequently attacked here and I note even been accused of being 'trolls". There is no need for any of that imo. And in relation to the OPs call for ideas - It was perhaps telling that the first comment in this thread chose to attack a 'farmer'. Another accuses other posters of being deceitful, dishonest, liars. You couldn't make it up tbf.

Id agree that more active moderation is required. However comments / threads attacking / abusing other forum users should not be permitted in the first place and imo that includes those thread titles etc which seek to goad other boards users. And its not just farmers - I've also seen vegetarians been targeted for unfair criticism here and irate declarations to the fact that others shouldn't be allowed to post becsuse it is a 'vegan' forum.

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that veganism is akin to religious belief and tbf I've no problem with that. However on any occasion I’ve been in the religion forum I've never seen comments accusing muslins or protestants etc of murder, rape or torture or wtte as has happened in this forum in relation to farming or even or referring to others as a 'sociopath'

Imo tolerance is a two way street and there is no place for any vitriolic attacks on others simply because they don't happen to share your beliefs.

Faith

Keep your feedback coming. In the meantime, Dizzyblonde and Dravokivich will step in and moderate more actively while we work through the feedback and discuss how to help the forum get back on track.

jive

Vegan/vegetarian doesn't really matter for a mod. Anyone who has used this forum in the last few years knows what (or who) the issue is. I've added some of them to my ignore list, not that I post here regularly, but they still PM you.

Every single thread gets derailed within a few hours, I'll summarise below:
1. Post a recipe or a new product and the reply will be 'I thought vegans only like natural such and such for health reasons' followed by questionable websites referring to some obscure ingredient.
2. Post about anything to do with animals and the reply will be 'Vegans turn a blind eye to all the insects killed during vegetable harvesting because they're not cute'.
3. Post about anything to do with sustainability and the reply will be 'what about <palm oil / water for almonds / food miles>'.
4. If you actually engage, they will reply with anecdotal stories about the inconsistencies of their vegan friends (which definitely exist).

It's this ad nauseam. If people wanted to defend their lifestyle choices they'd go to after hours to the weekly vegan bashing thread, this forum is not the place for it. This forum is unusable because the 'differing opinion' is allowed to be posted constantly. If a motorist posts about cyclists breaking red lights in the cycling forum the thread is locked and the user is banned for trolling; whereas here it is tolerated as a 'differing opinion'.

Bottom line is it's not worth the effort for anyone to post in this forum because you constantly have to justify being vegan or vegetarian as well as having to justify the behaviour of other vegans and vegetarians for some reason.

Bigbooty

There should be a separate forum for veganism. It's completely different from vegetarianism. I'd be happy to discuss issues pertaining to animal rights but it quickly turns into a farmers Vs vegans. We can't freely talk about our views on this forum as people just either don't care about animal rights, or don't want to understand it or actively hate vegans (gozunda on all three accounts remarkably).

It's understandable given how important animal agriculture is to many people's lives in this country that they would find veganism so unpalatable. But there are deep ideological issues which we will never bridge anytime soon so I don't really see the point in engaging.

White Clover

Bigbooty wrote: »

There should be a separate forum for veganism. It's completely different from vegetarianism. I'd be happy to discuss issues pertaining to animal rights but it quickly turns into a farmers Vs vegans. We can't freely talk about our views on this forum as people just either don't care about animal rights, or don't want to understand it or actively hate vegans (gozunda on all three accounts remarkably).

It's understandable given how important animal agriculture is to many people's lives in this country that they would find veganism so unpalatable. But there are deep ideological issues which we will never bridge anytime soon so I don't really see the point in engaging.

I think this post by big booty highlights the reason why farmers feel they have to callout the lies and untruths told on this forum.

To imply and say "people(read farmers) just either don't care about animal rights, or don't want to understand it"
is blatant farmer bashing and baiting.

99% of livestock farmers understand that healthy, comfortable animals, are animals that will thrive. It is not in any farmers interest to abuse animals in any way as it will result in ill thrift.
This fact has been pointed out numerous times to the extremist posters on this forum. It has also been pointed out that there are laws, supported by farmers, to deal with any case of animal abuse.
After these facts have been pointed out, the thread usually descends into name calling and personal attacks on the farmers posting in the thread.

Bigbooty

Animal welfare and animal rights are too completely different things. Do I really have to explain the two? At no point was I bashing farmers because you cannot farm animals and be in favour of animal rights. Welfare yes, but not rights.

gozunda

I feel obliged to another footnote to this discussion.

Plesase note I'm not here to defend myself against the idiotic and frankly daft allegations / abuse that I somehow 'hate vegans' etc. That is simply muck flinging and yes I know what animal 'rights' are. and what animal 'rights' extremists get up to

However for some time it has been notable that a very small number of posters have engaged in an overt campaign of personal abuse against certain posters here. And unfortunately New posters such as Bigbooty have been led to believe that this is somehow acceptable instead of discussion or even god forbid sometimes for posters to simply agree to disagree.

Thelonious Monk

Even this thread has turned into the usual circus based around the usual poster. Its toxic. I'm outta here for good as long as they are wrecking this forum. Best of luck.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Even this thread has turned into the usual circus based around the usual poster. Its toxic. I'm outta here for good as long as they are wrecking this forum. Best of luck.

Again more personal attacks. Thelonious?

And that is why these discussions are so toxic. And exactly why some posters have been threatened with Doxxing amongst other forms of abuse in this forum.

Bigbooty

Well it's quite clear that you do from your past behaviour. You've even hijacked a thread aiming to improve the forum for vegan and veggie boards users and made it about farmers.

White Clover

Bigbooty wrote: »

Animal welfare and animal rights are too completely different things. Do I really have to explain the two? At no point was I bashing farmers because you cannot farm animals and be in favour of animal rights. Welfare yes, but not rights.

They are not two completely different things.
Farmers care for their animals by providing feed, bedding and veterinary attention if needed to prevent suffering.
Preventing suffering is surely high up in the list of animal rights?
I trust the mods will note the aggressive tone of your post above in reply to facts stated refuting what you said in your previous post.

Bigbooty

White Clover wrote: »

They are not two completely different things.
Farmers care for their animals by providing feed, bedding and veterinary attention if needed to prevent suffering.
Preventing suffering is surely high up in the list of animal rights?
I trust the mods will note the aggressive tone of your post above.

Give over. I'm not aggressive. Have I used any inflammatory words or phrases? Any aggressive language?

Welfarism is the concept of providing all of the things you've stated because animals ultimately have a use to us. It acknowledges their sentience and suffering yet deems it necessary because we need certain things from them. Namely products for food and clothing. But it also relates to entertainment too.

Animal rights is a fringe belief that animals should be free from human exploitation and have the right to live in a way that befits their species. It aims to give them individual rights to not be owned or used as property ultimately respecting their own desires and needs.

You can see why we differ so much. It's not a topic that's really up for debate I'm just showing you that they are two different things.

gozunda

Bigbooty wrote: »

Well it's quite clear that you do from your past behaviour. You've even hijacked a thread aiming to improve the forum for vegan and veggie boards users and made it about farmers.

That's rubbish and you know it. Bigbooty you are a new poster in this forum - with very few posts and I've had one thread discussion with you to date. Thelonious brought up farmers in this thread btw. You've decided to side with those engaging in personal abuse. Dont expect that to go unnoticed or unanswered.

Bigbooty

gozunda wrote: »

Bigbooty you are a new poster in this forum - with very few posts and I've had one thread discussion with you to date. You've decided to side with those engaging in personal abuse. Dont expect that to go unnoticed or unanswered.

Eh? Who have I sided with exactly? I'm not responsible for anyone elses perceived abuse. I'm just stating a fact that you have taken over another thread and made it an uncomfortable space for vegan boards users. Perhaps it is why I and many others don't want to be apart of this.

Dizzyblonde

Mod note:
This thread needs to stay on topic if we're going to get anywhere. Constructive posts only please, or we'll have to take a heavy hand with moderation. Consider this a warning.

gozunda

Bigbooty wrote: »

Eh? Who have I sided with exactly? I'm not responsible for anyone elses perceived abuse. I'm just stating a fact that you have taken over another thread and made it an uncomfortable space for vegan boards users. Perhaps it is why I and many others don't want to be apart of this.

Thelonious brought up farmers. And you chose to bring others into this present discussion with directed personal abuse. Don try to pretend otherwise.

Or do you believe its normal to attack others and then blame them for that?

White Clover

Bigbooty wrote: »

Give over. I'm not aggressive. Have I used any inflammatory words or phrases? Any aggressive language?

Welfarism is the concept of providing all of the things you've stated because animals ultimately have a use to us. It acknowledges their sentience and suffering yet deems it necessary because we need certain things from them. Namely products for food and clothing. But it also relates to entertainment too.

Animal rights is a fringe belief that animals should be free from human exploitation and have the right to live in a way that befits their species. It aims to give them individual rights to not be owned or used as property ultimately respecting their own desires and needs.

You can see why we differ so much. It's not a topic that's really up for debate I'm just showing you that they are two different things.

Animal rights is Animal welfare plus a recent ideal that omnivores should not use/eat animals in order to obtain essential proteins, vitamins and minerals essential for healthy living.
Instead, omnivores should use/eat products/plants whose production is severely damaging to the environment, and or, highly processed products/imitation products produced by multi million euro conglomerates, whose sole aim is to do away with animal agriculture in order to create a demand for the product that they are selling.

Unearthly

I've another point.

There is a trend that vegetarians and vegans need to be told what foods are healthy and what aren't as if we think a vegan burger is healthy.

I live a healthy lifestyle, I even posted my bloods on here to show that. Its a bit cringe that I have what are most likely middle aged men lecturing me on health.

No need for it. Vegetarians and Vegans have a huge knowledge of what type of foods are out there. Don't patronise us

On the OP -

To keep it simple I’m willing to describe myself as a vegan.

1 - I think it would be fantastic if this was a place for V&V’s (vegans and vegetarians) to come and be able to enjoy sharing our choices and options with each other without having to defend our choices all the time. So a safe place would be good.

No one has the time for the bitter arguments that ensue out of made up interpretations.

This forum would thrive without the constant battles and thread derailing.

For example, I choose to go vegan because of the cruelty involved. My idea of cruelty is what it is. It’s not about farmers that actually harm animals. It’s the concept that animals exist, from birth to slaughter, just so we can eat or drink them.

We could share information on new products, places to go and eat, recipes, places to visit or holiday. We could actually help grow the sector, financially, nationwide.

A lot of posters have walked away because of the trolling. It’s ridiculous and unfair. Nobody wants to talk on a forum where the chances of arguments are so high. We are not here to promote choices. We are here to share them. We are definitely not here to defend them time and time and time and time again.

So definitely a forum where V&V’s can interact without battling the usual trolling would be great.

2 - I think it would make a lot of sense for the new moderator to be vegan or vegetarian.

They would be active in the forum anyway. They could spot any trolling a mile away (so we wouldn’t have to wait days before someone looks at it and it seems as time passes that obvious yellow and red cards go unpunished and I can only assume it’s because so much time has passed ?) as we all know the ‘innocent’ questions that are really baiting.

For example something as ‘simple’ as ‘hi, where do you all get your protein’ could be nipped in the bud without it turning into a a few days of trolling.

Or the more ‘advanced’ example would be ‘why do you love animals but hate plants ?’ And any other pathetic example you can think of.

So a moderator that can spot the usual wind-up tropes would be good. They would also know that we are not ‘vegan terrorists’ and understand that one can make choices for cruelty, environmental or health reasons. Some may care about one but not the other. That’s ok.

A good V or V mod would bring a bit of passion and that would be great for the forum.

Also, Is there any possibility to change the charter on the forum too for ‘day trippers’ that think it’s ok to drop in with the usual stuff like ‘yeah but steak is lovely’. Can comments like that in a V&V forum not just be a straight red ?

A much stronger no nonsense approach would be good.

I’ll chip in with more thoughts as I have them.

auspicious

There is a debating and public speaking thread in soceity and culture. If someone wants to debate what they perceive as a contentious issue/point perhaps they can be referred to there and any willing participants can engage.

Bigbooty

I'm my view, I cannot freely criticise farming practices without farmers coming in and saying that I should basically keep my views to myself because they're hate speech. Which it isn't.

Gozunda, I value my free time. I have a life and other interests. I don't want to be drawn into nonsense arguments that are quite frankly pointless as you and your ilk are not open to any aspect of veganism at all. You have made that abundantly clear from our brief discussion and the observations gained from lurking.

As the mods may see, I can't even post a basic explanation of animal rights and welfarism without it being taken as an assault on farmers. I thought we vegans were supposed to be the prickly oversensitive ones? We can't even have that!

Back on topic:

I'd actually like this forum to be for those interested in becoming veggie/vegan or veggies vegan themselves if there can't be a vegan only forum. Have a single thread for non-vegans/veggies if they want to ask a question there should be clearly defined rules as to what's appropriate. Anyone that wants to become a regular contributor to this forum should be approved by the mods after posting an introductory post in a stickied thread. Ban anyone that talks about protein defiency. I have knowledge that I've gained and I would be happy to share it if this place wasn't so bloody toxic.