US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

RandomName2

droidus wrote: »

Its funny you mention that as it completely demolishes your argument. Here is their rating of the 2020 candidates based on public statements, manifestos etc.





And here are all the dem primary contenders. As you can see even Bernie Sanders, the radical left bogeyman is barely to the left of most centre left European politicians, which is to say, barely left at all.

Remember that Biden, in order to get elected, had to compromise.

He has to be in favor of fracking, and he has to tell the oil industry that their jobs won't be under immediate threat. That's just on the environmental front.

Biden has been known for political gaffs. Every time he opens his mouth he's liable to fall somewhat foul , which is particularly awkward for a politician attempting to flip states.

But I am personally hopeful for a politician who is built upon compromise. Pelosi probably does more harm than good to the Democratic Party. Having someone who wants to actively work with allies, and those on the other side of the chamber, will be refreshing (fingers crossed).

TomOnBoard

prawnsambo wrote: »

You can't pardon somebody for crimes they haven't been charged with yet. Like it's not a get out of jail free card. And certainly not for crimes committed and indicted for at state level.

A President CAN issue a pardon for ANY FEDERAL crime committed by a former POTUS while in office, even if not already charged. See Ford's blanket Nixon pardon.

As you correctly say, he cannot pardon a State crime, or prevent civil legal actions.

Blowfish

Girly Gal wrote: »

Some people on here live in fantasy land, Trump will eventually have to accept the result, he definitely won't barricade himself in the White House. He might be a crass individual, but, he's not stupid, he probably knew this was a strong possibility and this is his last stand.

Trump is a narcissist, don't underestimate what that means for his behaviour. He genuinely believes his own bs, including that the election was 'stolen' from him and that by rights he actually won. He won't be able to handle losing so will fight far far beyond what any sane person would. Once he has no more avenues to fight it, then is when he'll be most dangerous as he'll switch to burning the institutions around him to the ground as much as he can.

TomOnBoard

abff wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was using refusal to concede as a bargaining chip for a presidential pardon from Biden. Whether Biden would go for it or not is another question entirely.

He can resign as President and let Pence take over. Pence then issues a Ford/Nixon style blanket pardon for FEDERAL crimes while in office. Job done. I'd be concerned Biden would go for that just to get that **** off his plate. Pence would go for it to get a few minutes in the POTUS chair, and ingratiate himself with the Trump base. Pence would then become the de-facto leader of the GOP going into 2022 and 2024 elections. Pence runs for POTUS 2024 with Nikki Haley as VP Running Mate.. Bish! Bash! Bosh!

Carfacemandog

RandomName2 wrote: »

But I am personally hopeful for a politician who is built upon compromise. Pelosi probably does more harm than good to the Democratic Party. Having someone who wants to actively work with allies, and those on the other side of the chamber, will be refreshing (fingers crossed).

It would be... if we didn't already know exactly what the response on this republican side will be, e.g. The same as when Obama was president.

prawnsambo

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

...but it's not really a close election - only in the contorted, anachronistic world of the electoral college.

At the same time as that 71k margin is being whittled down by votes coming in in Arizona the overall total margin is increasing by millions in California and New York. Millions of people are disenfranchised by the Electoral College. The USA is the only country where their main election by-passes all of their major cities.

Just because it's the convention doesn't make it any less democratic.

The EC isn't perfect, but it was designed to do the exact opposite of what you think is wrong with it. It's a form of proportional representation where the smaller states are supposed to be represented in a way that prevents them from being completely blown out by the big cities and states.

The system needs updating though and there are parts of the US like Puerto Rico that get no say whatsoever. Other than the popular vote of course.

weisses

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Can't ever see AOC ever getting a run at president. She is too much of a turn off for the moderates that can flip between Dem and Rep. Some Democrats believed the high visibility of AOC and the squad was a big problem for Biden's campaign.

To me she looks like a perfect example of the "american dream"

VinLieger

weisses wrote: »

To me she looks like a perfect example of the "american dream"

Its funny that the republicans and their supporters are such big fans of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps etc yet with AOC who literally did just that they constantly complain that she used to work behind a bar

breezy1985

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

She would fit in nicely with pbp/ rise here I think.
But she certainly isn't suitable for the upper echelons of American politics

Thats absolute nonsense she is well able for her current job which is in the upper echelons of US politics and will do way more in life than any average PBP politician

pixelburp

While the DNC remains relatively centrist, and the schism between it and the progressive wing stays hostile, there's simply no way someone like AOC would get the votes to put her as Candidate Cortez. Maybe if the ideological needle in the democrats swung more to the left, maybe. Sanders tried twice now and failed to cosy up to the Pelosi strata of the Dems, why would it be thought AOC could do better?

And that's before you get to "electability". AOC is hated by a large swath of the America voting public, rightly or wrongly. She's better off staying local and fighting for New York than comprising on a national level - it's a loselose scenario

AbusesToilets

pixelburp wrote: »

While the DNC remains relatively centrist, and the schism between it and the progressive wing stays hostile, there's simply no way someone like AOC would get the votes to put her as Candidate Cortez. Maybe if the ideological needle in the democrats swung more to the left, maybe. Sanders tried twice now and failed to cosy up to the Pelosi strata of the Dems, why would it be thought AOC could do better?

And that's before you get to "electability". AOC is hated by a large swath of the America voting public, rightly or wrongly. She's better off staying local and fighting for New York than comprising on a national level - it's a loselose scenario

It will be instructive to see what becomes of the house leadership position. While the Dems won the Presidency, I don't feel they can ignore their failure again at other levels. Just in NC, there's a marked difference between the vote total for Gov. Cooper and the other statewide candidates.

How much longer can the Democrats ignore the evidence that the progressive platform is a winning one ?

prawnsambo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It will be instructive to see what becomes of the house leadership position. While the Dems won the Presidency, I don't feel they can ignore their failure again at other levels. Just in NC, there's a marked difference between the vote total for Gov. Cooper and the other statewide candidates.

How much longer can the Democrats ignore the evidence that the progressive platform is a winning one ?

That and the obvious question as to why the Republicans hate her so much. I suspect that they fear her and her policies. From a European viewpoint, she's about bog standard centre-left. But she always seems extremely well prepared, knows what she's talking about and can drill down on stuff to a very granular level. In short, she's a professional politician who's well versed in how to get elected and how to leverage her visibility. I suspect that more and more politicians will follow her example.

Water John

The Presidency of the US is wherever Biden is, it's not the WH. He can do it from Wilmington, Delaware if he wishes.

Mr.Nice Guy

I had a read of the letter George Bush left for Bill Clinton in '93 when he was about to take charge...

https://twitter.com/Razarumi/status/1325485021629714433


Then it dawned on me that Trump meanwhile will not only refuse to write such a gracious letter, but will likely spend every waking day tweeting invective towards Biden and undermining him at every opportunity.

OhHiMark

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

He could save 130,000 lives during the rest of his term by following medical advice and promoting masks.

https://www.dw.com/en/us-could-see-half-a-million-coronavirus-deaths-by-end-of-winter-study-warns/a-55379763

But he's still president and if he stepped down then Pence gets the job and I can't see any US politician refusing that.

Conspiracy theory would be that the first thing Pence would do is give Trump a presidential pardon. But that won't stop the civil or local stuff.

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

TomOnBoard

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

Federal stuff, yes!

For Forks Sake

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Federal stuff, yes!

Unfortuately for him, its a lot of individual States are going after him, and a pardon won't get him off the hook for those

prawnsambo

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

Yeah. As was pointed out earlier, Ford basically pardoned Nixon for any crimes he committed against America while in office. A genuine gold-plated get out of jail free card.

But two things have to happen. Trump to resign and let Pence take over and Pence to actually do it. Is there honour amongst thieves?

Brian?

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

He can. Nixon was too. It’s a joke. There’s even a line of thinking that he can pardon himself.

prawnsambo

Brian? wrote: »

He can. Nixon was too. It’s a joke. There’s even a line of thinking that he can pardon himself.

Would be fun if he did that only to find out later that it doesn't work that way.

abff

prawnsambo wrote: »

Would be fun if he did that only to find out later that it doesn't work that way.

Yes, but it wouldn’t just be an ordinary pardon. It would be a tremendous pardon, possibly the greatest pardon ever. On a par at least with any pardon granted by Lincoln.

Brian?

I’ve had a few whiskeys and I’m getting a little sentimental. So forgive me.

There’s a some wonderful things about America and some awful things about America. Joe Biden represents the wonderful things, mostly. Decent human being who worked his way up to being POTUS.

Kamala Harris too. The child of 2 immigrants who’s now Veep.

It’s wonderful to be reminded of that now. There’s hope for the US. No matter what anyone says it’s the most influential nation in the world. And it’s a positive influence again.

Night all.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve had a few whiskeys and I’m getting a little sentimental. So forgive me.

There’s a some wonderful things about America and some awful things about America. Joe Biden represents the wonderful things, mostly. Decent human being who worked his way up to being POTUS.

Kamala Harris too. The child of 2 immigrants who’s now Veep.

It’s wonderful to be reminded of that now. There’s hope for the US. No matter what anyone says it’s the most influential nation in the world. And it’s a positive influence again.

Night all.

The trouble is it's just as if not more divided than ever. If you had 5 people in your house trying to decide on what food to get and 2 of the votes were to kill and eat you it wouldn't be a great result.

Water John

Yang moving to Georgia to help the Senate run off campaign. Stacey Abrahms on with Jake Tapper CNN earlier. She's a powerhouse.

prawnsambo

There were some discrepancies found in Fulton County. Taken very seriously and investigated. Trump got all excited, but apparently was a scanning problem with about 340 votes and resulted in a bigger margin for Biden.

awec

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

Quite a significant number of Latinos - specifically Cubans and Venezuelans were spooked by the 'leftist and socialist' labels that the Democrats were painted with. For the very good reason that it was such political systems that they and their families fled from in the first place. That's an issue with messaging and policy that the Democrats need to address.

breezy1985

awec wrote: »

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

5 million more in the popular vote and about 76 in the electoral college isnt actually as close as it originally looked like it was going to be.

What.Now

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. As was pointed out earlier, Ford basically pardoned Nixon for any crimes he committed against America while in office. A genuine gold-plated get out of jail free card.

But two things have to happen. Trump to resign and let Pence take over and Pence to actually do it. Is there honour amongst thieves?

Was that ever challenged or was it a case of just let him go so we don't have to deal with it?

TomOnBoard

What.Now wrote: »

Was that ever challenged or was it a case of just let him go so we don't have to deal with it?

Never really challenged by the politicians. However, the People reacted when Ford went to the Polls. He lost a huge amount of support from the public that ultimately led to Jimmy Carter's Presidency.