4 dead and several injured after terrorist incident in Vienna, Austria

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

Stopping the migrants is one thing but we are forgetting about the biggest tool at their disposal, internet.
Close the borders as much as you want but the possibilities are there for anyone to go and radicalise themselves.

It comes down to two aspects. Protecting from migrants who are outside of European borders with hostile intent, and better systems for integration.

Integration, so far, has followed along the lines of "Ahh sure, it'll be grand". The assumption being that people will be so awed with our cultures, that they will naturally adjust to living within our cultural norms. It doesn't work, especially when populations of the foreign groups continue to increase. Hence, the growth in enclaves, and Ghettos throughout Europe. We need a better system that recognises the failures of the past, not just as failures on the side of Europeans, but the failures to adjust by migrants themselves. Not as a witch-hunt, but as a recognition of the cold hard reality that exists.

We need better understanding of the needs of migrants, and what will work to encourage actual integration. It always amazes me that we've got so good at marketing and consumerism, but we can't sell integration into western culture to those who have arrived here. We also need to be fully aware, that we don't have endless resources, and that the population of migrants or those required to integrate should reflect those diminishing resources.

Ultimately, we need to integrate those we have, and keep out new people, at least, until we have a system that has proven itself able to work. Right now, we don't have such a system. And so, we shouldn't be allowing in more migrants in sizable numbers until we establish and test such a system. That would cut down on the possibility of radical migrants, because vetting procedures would be much greater.

screamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It comes down to two aspects. Protecting from migrants who are outside of European borders with hostile intent, and better systems for integration.

Integration, so far, has followed along the lines of "Ahh sure, it'll be grand". The assumption being that people will be so awed with our cultures, that they will naturally adjust to living within our cultural norms. It doesn't work, especially when populations of the foreign groups continue to increase. Hence, the growth in enclaves, and Ghettos throughout Europe. We need a better system that recognises the failures of the past, not just as failures on the side of Europeans, but the failures to adjust by migrants themselves. Not as a witch-hunt, but as a recognition of the cold hard reality that exists.

We need better understanding of the needs of migrants, and what will work to encourage actual integration. It always amazes me that we've got so good at marketing and consumerism, but we can't sell integration into western culture to those who have arrived here. We also need to be fully aware, that we don't have endless resources, and that the population of migrants or those required to integrate should reflect those diminishing resources.

Ultimately, we need to integrate those we have, and keep out new people, at least, until we have a system that has proven itself able to work. Right now, we don't have such a system. And so, we shouldn't be allowing in more migrants in sizable numbers until we establish and test such a system. That would cut down on the possibility of radical migrants, because vetting procedures would be much greater.

Integration is not on us, it’s a choice they make whether to integrate or not. We need to start realising that, and stop always, always taking the lead to fix these people, there’s no fixing a lot of them to be very honest.

Granadino

Granadino wrote: »

I have no problem letting in Syrian or Kurdish refugees. Put yourself in their shoes. What would you do?

I'd reroute them to other Islamic nations, providing a financial incentive to those countries to accept them as full citizens.

I see no reason why Europe should have to accept in groups of people who are so drastically different than us, in terms of culture, religious backgrounds, morals, values etc. Especially, in the numbers that exist.

As for being in their shoes... I can't. I'm not religious to the extent that most Muslims are... where their religion has such a direct bearing on how they live their lives. I was raised a devout Catholic, but even there, there was little connection between the religion and our lives, by the time I was growing up. But I imagine I would go live in a country where my faith was commonplace, so that there wouldn't be any friction with others..

TomTomTim

screamer wrote: »

Integration is not on us, it’s a choice they make whether to integrate or not. We need to start realising that, and stop always, always taking the lead to fix these people, there’s no fixing a lot of them to be very honest.

True. Yet it shouldn't be a choice. I wouldn't dream of going to the Middle East and trying force my views on Muslims, as a matter of respecting the house you are in. Islamists have no respect for our house, they'd burn it to the ground if they had their way, as would their western allies.

screamer

screamer wrote: »

Integration is not on us, it’s a choice they make whether to integrate or not. We need to start realising that, and stop always, always taking the lead to fix these people, there’s no fixing a lot of them to be very honest.

Integration is a two way street. We want them to integrate? we need to provide education so that they can understand/appreciate our culture (it would help a lot if we actually admired our own culture too), while also ensuring that they don't become another poor class... because poor classes, tend to hold dear their original cultures (look at the Irish in the US). So we need to educate them so that they can be gainfully employed, earn a reasonable income for living expenses (and so avoid living in low income Ghettos), and ensure that they have the skills (language, for example) to effectively communicate with others.

At the same time, we need to show that migrants need to integrate, and we do this by monitoring their behavior, and attempts they've made to do so. Personally, I'm in favor of a trial basis to determine whether they've adjusted enough over a period of time, achieved certain milestones, and should they fail to do so, then their residency should be revoked. Nothing that comes for free, is ever valued. There needs to be a risk involved, otherwise they won't work to change themselves...

Granadino

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd reroute them to other Islamic nations, providing a financial incentive to those countries to accept them as full citizens.

I see no reason why Europe should have to accept in groups of people who are so drastically different than us, in terms of culture, religious backgrounds, morals, values etc. Especially, in the numbers that exist.

As for being in their shoes... I can't. I'm not religious to the extent that most Muslims are... where their religion has such a direct bearing on how they live their lives. I was raised a devout Catholic, but even there, there was little connection between the religion and our lives, by the time I was growing up. But I imagine I would go live in a country where my faith was commonplace, so that there wouldn't be any friction with others..

I meant put yourself in the shoes of someone who has had their house levelled in a war and all they have is a bag on their back. Just because they are muslim, why can't they come to Europe?

imak

I must put my view as a Muslim, i am not offend by Muhammad(pbuh) cartoon, because there is no law in Islam if some one create Muhammad cartoon should be killed. those who did it i strongly condemn it,and i am sorry those who killed. i am sick, afraid, feel pity and getting stressed out because of all this. i don't support Isis . i do believe isis was created for political reason not by Muslim. but Muslim being used . i do believe freedom of speech. but freedom of speech should not be used to joke other people with out reason. but again Islam do not teach kill people , Islam do not teach kill people because Muhammad cartoon, and i can guarantee you mostly Muslim are agree with me.

bear1

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd reroute them to other Islamic nations, providing a financial incentive to those countries to accept them as full citizens.

I see no reason why Europe should have to accept in groups of people who are so drastically different than us, in terms of culture, religious backgrounds, morals, values etc. Especially, in the numbers that exist.

As for being in their shoes... I can't. I'm not religious to the extent that most Muslims are... where their religion has such a direct bearing on how they live their lives. I was raised a devout Catholic, but even there, there was little connection between the religion and our lives, by the time I was growing up. But I imagine I would go live in a country where my faith was commonplace, so that there wouldn't be any friction with others..

Why should Europe provide financial incentives to other nations outside of the block to house them?
I'm not aware of any nation that providing funding to Europe to accept the refugees.

Granadino

Granadino wrote: »

I meant put yourself in the shoes of someone who has had their house levelled in a war and all they have is a bag on their back. Just because they are muslim, why can't they come to Europe?

You skipped over what I said.

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

Why should Europe provide financial incentives to other nations outside of the block to house them?

Because it would be cheaper than supporting them in Europe?

I'm not aware of any nation that providing funding to Europe to accept the refugees.

Neither am I. Probably because nobody cares.

AlphaDelta1

imak wrote: »

I must put my view as a Muslim, i am not offend by Muhammad(pbuh) cartoon, because there is no law in Islam if some one create Muhammad cartoon should be killed. those who did it i strongly condemn it,and i am sorry those who killed. i am sick, afraid, feel pity and getting stressed out because of all this. i don't support Isis . i do believe isis was created for political reason not by Muslim. but Muslim being used . i do believe freedom of speech. but freedom of speech should not be used to joke other people with out reason. but again Islam do not teach kill people , Islam do not teach kill people because Muhammad cartoon, and i can guarantee you mostly Muslim are agree with me.

Problem is there is a significant minority that don't see things your own way.

One of the cornerstones of freedom of speech is the right to ridicule any and ALL religions. Muslims should respect that right as i 100% respect their right to do as they please in their homelands.

Strumms

We have absolutely no obligation to sort out, solve or assist any problems on this planet with the exception of the ones that are happening here.

If Sierra Leone, Afghanistan are having issues, civil war, war crimes, ethnic cleansing... these problems are not growing in the soil there. These problems are nurtured in people. Through choices. Now people are showing up here, to put down roots and be living amongst us.

All you need are a couple of people, a couple who for religious reasons or by whatever ideology scrambles their brain decide that the 1000 people Qing for buses, coming and going from restaurants on o’Connell St, or coming out of a Corrs concert in Vicar St need to be blown up...

Sound far fetched ?

Nobody at the Eagles Of Death Metal gig in the bataclan foresaw it, nobody at Rue Bichat and rue Alibert foresaw it, nobody at Rue de la Fontaine-au-Roi, Boulevard Voltaire....

Why not O’Connell St, Westmoreland St, The 3 arena ? Trinity College, The Aviva ? Even Richmond Park on a Friday night ?

If you import trouble, you’ll get it, you only need to import a handful of the many thousands who’d be dodgy.

screamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Integration is a two way street. We want them to integrate? we need to provide education so that they can understand/appreciate our culture (it would help a lot if we actually admired our own culture too), while also ensuring that they don't become another poor class... because poor classes, tend to hold dear their original cultures (look at the Irish in the US). So we need to educate them so that they can be gainfully employed, earn a reasonable income for living expenses (and so avoid living in low income Ghettos), and ensure that they have the skills (language, for example) to effectively communicate with others.

At the same time, we need to show that migrants need to integrate, and we do this by monitoring their behavior, and attempts they've made to do so. Personally, I'm in favor of a trial basis to determine whether they've adjusted enough over a period of time, achieved certain milestones, and should they fail to do so, then their residency should be revoked. Nothing that comes for free, is ever valued. There needs to be a risk involved, otherwise they won't work to change themselves...

They will never want to understand nor appreciate our culture, the extremist ones would sh:t on our culture which they abhor, just as they abhor us. There is no integrating them into our societies, best leave them in their own sh:thole despotic countries. Integration is just another bull**** notion we’ve concocted to reassure ourselves that there’s some magic solution to this, there isn’t. Self preservation must prevail in the face of paralysis of political systems and politicians. Keep them out, that’s the only answer.

saabsaab

How about deportation for those (and their immediate families) who are involved in such extreme activity?

screamer

spook_cook wrote: »

Pretty sure Collective punishment is a crime.

Pales in comparison to the crime they commit on us. They are allowed to mass import their families so they can have a nice life together, we should be allowed mass deport them too if they turn into murdeous monsters

TomTomTim

saabsaab wrote: »

How about deportation for those (and their immediate families) who are involved in such extreme activity?

It won't happen, and probably shouldn't happen. Guilt by association should never be a road we go down. Unless there's a standard of evidence needed in regard to the family members. As in you'd need to prove that they were involved, or covered it up, or hide the person who committed the act. Even then, you'd have to deal with all the wailing from human rights groups, groups who have a lot of political power.

bear1

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it would be cheaper than supporting them in Europe?



Neither am I. Probably because nobody cares.

No, I meant more that we simply refuse entry and provide no financial assistance to any of those countries.

AlphaDelta1

AlphaDelta1 wrote: »

One of the cornerstones of freedom of speech is the right to ridicule any and ALL religions

Is it?
One of the cornerstones of freedom of speech no less!

screamer

screamer wrote: »

They will never want to understand nor appreciate our culture, the extremist ones would sh:t on our culture which they abhor, just as they abhor us. There is no integrating them into our societies, best leave them in their own sh:thole despotic countries. Integration is just another bull**** notion we’ve concocted to reassure ourselves that there’s some magic solution to this, there isn’t. Self preservation must prevail in the face of paralysis of political systems and politicians. Keep them out, that’s the only answer.

Except, it's not a workable long term answer. Nor even a short term answer.

Europe already has a sizable population of Muslims, and other migrant groups, who are not leaving. Western nations are not going to turn their back on decades, of giving people rights and protecting those rights, in order to expel everyone now. It won't happen. There's no political will for such a thing.

As such, we need to integrate the existing population, because effective integration will remove the radicalisation of those within our borders. There are many Muslims around the world who are content to live within western cultures, and are tolerant of the differences between our cultures. That is the key. To determine what makes that happen, and to capitalize on it.

The extremists beyond our borders can be dealt with differently.

It comes down to reality. What can we realistically do with the **** show we have now. Your way isn't possible... at least, not without destroying the very fabric of western cultural values. That's too high a price in my mind.

screamer

screamer wrote: »

They will never want to understand nor appreciate our culture, the extremist ones would sh:t on our culture which they abhor, just as they abhor us. There is no integrating them into our societies, best leave them in their own sh:thole despotic countries. Integration is just another bull**** notion we’ve concocted to reassure ourselves that there’s some magic solution to this, there isn’t. Self preservation must prevail in the face of paralysis of political systems and politicians. Keep them out, that’s the only answer.

Who are you talking about exactly?

bear1

AlphaDelta1 wrote: »

Problem is there is a significant minority that don't see things your own way.

One of the cornerstones of freedom of speech is the right to ridicule any and ALL religions. Muslims should respect that right as i 100% respect their right to do as they please in their homelands.

That's not entirely accurate now.
You're more getting into the whole hate speech vs free speech side of things now.

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

No, I meant more that we simply refuse entry and provide no financial assistance to any of those countries.

Again, it's not realistic. Without a viable alternative destination, migrants will continue to avoid border controls and Europe will have nowhere to send them when their applications for entry have been denied. Population increases in Africa, or the M.East are set to continue for the next century, so we're going to see greater pressure for immigration.

We need somewhere to send them, rather than just have them return a month later. Most migrants will settle if they're presented with the chance at a reasonable life.. that doesn't have to be in Europe. The remainder can be dealt with by other means, such as deportations, or harsher measures.

john123470

Strumms wrote: »

Now people are showing up here, to put down roots and be living amongst us.

If you import trouble, you’ll get it, you only need to import a handful of the many thousands who’d be dodgy.

Its too late now. The Trojan horse is in town. The whole of islam is complicit in these acts of savagery. The silent so-called 'decent' muslims need to get off their arses, march on the streets and declare these acts are not carried out in their name. But - they will not do so

Why ?

Because they are afraid. We saw examples a while back when members of the Clonskeagh mosque in Dublin were physically assaulted for marching against islamic terror. That shut them up fast .. lols .. If you try to leave this "religion", there will be serious repercussions. This is not a religion - its a cult - a death cult

We have na nGardai outside mosques protecting muslims from us ! ffs. We fling open the gates of our national sports ground, Croke park, to let them celebrate their eid festival.

Someone needs to take a closer look inside these Irish mosques. We dont know what godless, violent freaks are being watered and fed there. We don't know what is happening re radicalizations etc .. its time to peel back the veil and take a close look.

We either do something about it now or we'll be forever looking over our shoulder in church

TomTomTim

john123470 wrote: »

Its too late now. The Trojan horse is in town. The whole of islam is complicit in these acts of savagery. The silent so-called 'decent' muslims need to get off their arses, march on the streets and declare these acts are not carried out in their name. But - they will not do so

Why ?

Because they are afraid. We saw examples a while back when members of the Clonskeagh mosque in Dublin were physically assaulted for marcing against islamic terror. That shut them up fast .. lols .. If you try to leave this "religion", there will be serious repercussions. This is not a religion - its a cult - a death cult

We have na nGardai outside mosques protecting muslims from us ! ffs. We fling open the gates if our national sports ground, Croke park, to let them celebrate their eid festival.

Someone needs to take a closer look inside these Irish mosques. We dont know what godless, violent freaks are being watered and fed there. We don't know what is happening re radicalizations etc .. its time to peel back the veil and take a close look.

We either do something about it now or we'll be forever looking over our shoulder in church

Remember the lad in the UK who wished Christians well at Christmas? Some other, more radical Muslim, drove half the length of the country just to kill him. The fervency of Islamists is very hard to match.

AlphaDelta1

bear1 wrote: »

That's not entirely accurate now.
You're more getting into the whole hate speech vs free speech side of things now.

If it's good enough for Rowan Atkinson it's good enough for me.

"To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society"

screamer

[quote="[Deleted User];115155370]It comes down to reality. What can we realistically do with the **** show we have now. Your way isn't possible... at least, not without destroying the very fabric of western cultural values. That's too high a price in my mind.[/quote]

They will destroy the fabric of western cultural values, that is their goal, so if protecting it is your reason for not keeping them out, your thinking is flawed from the get go.

Not hard to see how the Nazi regime rose to power or how the Serbian genocide was allowed to happen.

This thread can now be summed up in one sentence;

"Some of them hate us because of religion, they are barbarians. I now hate all of those that practice that religion and advocate action against them, I am civilised."

Granadino

john123470 wrote: »

We fling open the gates of our national sports ground, Croke park, to let them celebrate their eid festival.

They should invite the boys from the Orange lodges into Croker next July 12th for the craic.

bear1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, it's not realistic. Without a viable alternative destination, migrants will continue to avoid border controls and Europe will have nowhere to send them when their applications for entry have been denied. Population increases in Africa, or the M.East are set to continue for the next century, so we're going to see greater pressure for immigration.

We need somewhere to send them, rather than just have them return a month later. Most migrants will settle if they're presented with the chance at a reasonable life.. that doesn't have to be in Europe. The remainder can be dealt with by other means, such as deportations, or harsher measures.

Don't agree.
What's the stop whichever country we deal with simply letting them back out while they still collect cash?
We can't be the car park of the world.
Stop them at the source and those that do make it through, pop them on a flight back to where they belong.
Far cheaper than providing incentives whilst at the same time showing the immigrants that getting to Europe isn't going to be the most pleasant of experiences. Enough so to deter future generations.

Ok. logic isn't a strong point here. haha.. ok. I'll come back when all the rage has evaporated.