Full house renovation : privacy centric full tech kit out

onanor

Hi all,
I'm just about to close on a house - however it needs a *lot* of work. Not sure much can be salvaged except the walls.
Were going to do a major renovation to it and its got me thinking about what sort of tech I want in it...

I'm a systems guy, so the infrastructure side of things is mostly covered - obviously some pimpin 10G backbone network throughout ( or even a bunch of cheap ebay infinband 40G kit! ).

Where I've no real knowledge currently is the user experience side of things.

I like the tech / function of alexa and siri and google etc, but i certainly dont want or trust their tendrils to be running through the house.
I want full control over all data collected , so most likely bespoke services wont be used.



Id be interested in adding full mic coverage to the property , eg built in to each room *somehow*, eg maybe a conference mic in the ceilings etc
Video *maybe* for security perhaps, but not sure what else it would be useful for?

Touchscreen(s) in some rooms maybe?

Any ideas on what could be achieved or any resources that ppl already use for this sort of discussion / planning ?

Thanks!

spaceHopper

What about something based on raspberry pi's

Clareman

For me if you want the full functionality of Amazon/Apple/Google but have concerns about security I'd be far more comfortable using Amazon/Apple/Google rather that trusting something open source or locally stored stuff. I use Google because if someone wants to get into my data in Google they have to hack into Google and if someone is able to do that then I don't think my data will be the big prize. I went for Google because I have only Android products so that discounted Apple and it was a toss of a coin between Google and Amazon, I got a free speaker from Google and just grew from there.

I would say that no matter what you go with, either something bespoke or multinational that you need to take responsibility for your data, review and delete regularly, https://myactivity.google.com/ is 1 of my most visited sites to check, I know you can argue that just because the say they've deleted your data doesn't mean they did but I don't think someone as big as Google would risk the GDPR fine by not deleting it.

wexfordman2

onanor wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm just about to close on a house - however it needs a *lot* of work. Not sure much can be salvaged except the walls.
Were going to do a major renovation to it and its got me thinking about what sort of tech I want in it...

I'm a systems guy, so the infrastructure side of things is mostly covered - obviously some pimpin 10G backbone network throughout ( or even a bunch of cheap ebay infinband 40G kit! ).

Where I've no real knowledge currently is the user experience side of things.

I like the tech / function of alexa and siri and google etc, but i certainly dont want or trust their tendrils to be running through the house.
I want full control over all data collected , so most likely bespoke services wont be used.



Id be interested in adding full mic coverage to the property , eg built in to each room *somehow*, eg maybe a conference mic in the ceilings etc
Video *maybe* for security perhaps, but not sure what else it would be useful for?

Touchscreen(s) in some rooms maybe?

Any ideas on what could be achieved or any resources that ppl already use for this sort of discussion / planning ?

Thanks!

If you are doing a full rewire, then a great chance to put something in like velbus, loxone etc, from the perspective of a control system.

How you integrate that, then leaves you with loads of options, velbus for example is a standalone system, so no need to connect to the cloud, until you want to integrate it with alexa, google etc, you have the choice. You could limit it to just purely web/automation etc, but ultimately if you want good voice control then you have to expose one of the main smart home assistant providers.

I am old enough to remember and to have installed in my own house when I built it, a voice control system (hal2000) controlling my.kihhts and heating etc, which required mixers and in ceiling mics etc and provided an absolutely awful experience,.the background noise was terrible, and the amount of programming and configuration you had to do, the voice training etc, was horrendous. Suffice to say, you are unlikely to get near the experience you want without using one of the providers.

As well as that z the level of integration that alexa, google etc have, the reliability, the smoothness etc are unparalleled. I just added smart curtains to my house, and it was so easy to integrate to google, almost child's play.

R.O.R

Homeassist or OpenHab sound like the way to go for you.

Both can do more or less everything that Google or Alexa can do, but with local processing rather than cloud.

wexfordman2

R.O.R wrote: »

Homeassist or OpenHab sound like the way to go for you.

Both can do more or less everything that Google or Alexa can do, but with local processing rather than cloud.

Absolutely, openhab is what I run, but not for voice control though.

How are you collecting your audio and feeding to openhab ?

ted1

Follow automatedhome on Instagram, it’s in the north but they’ve done good details on their new build.

(Is it anyone here’s ?) full luxone system and then some

wexfordman2

ted1 wrote: »

Follow automatedhome on Instagram, it’s in the north but they’ve done good details on their new build.

(Is it anyone here’s ?) full luxone system and then some

That's the site that got me into HA twenty years ago, great site. Think there is someone else I here with a loxone system as well

R.O.R

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Absolutely, openhab is what I run, but not for voice control though.

How are you collecting your audio and feeding to openhab ?

I'm running Homeassistant but don't have any voice control set up. It's possible though using the Ada Add-on for local voice recognition processing. Haven't looked in to it further though as I'm not sure what I'd use it for and don't have any mic's

wexfordman2

R.O.R wrote: »

I'm running Homeassistant but don't have any voice control set up. It's possible though using the Ada Add-on for local voice recognition processing. Haven't looked in to it further though as I'm not sure what I'd use it for and don't have any mic's

The op suggested mics around the house, I don't believe voice control can be done effectively without using one of the smart assistants. I use openhab on a raspberry pi, to talk to my lighting (velbus system), heat and security system, it pulls everything together from a voice.control perspective.

Openhab, or home assistant will give the op control of everything he mentioned in his opening post z and will be locally controlled, but only one of the smart assistants will give reliable voice control.

1) Decide in a control system, by that I mean, the system that is going to do the switching, dimming etc of your lighting, power etc. Do not go for a wireless system, or hue type solution, look at a wired system, such as loxone, velbus, cbus, eib etc.
2) use hue or something as a complimentary system at most.
3) Decide on a system for your sensors, things such as pir's, door sensors etc are important, and preferably get an alarm system that allows you to integrate these into your smart home, a smart alarm system that can talk to openhab for example.
3) lots of Cat cable, for the likes of smart controllers etc, wall switches ( it is likely that your walk switches will not have 220v mains etc if you go for a smart contril system).
4) don't forget coaxz still relevant for a few more years.
5) don't forget external areas, plan for rewuirements in security, cctv, gate control, external wifi, power, lighting control etc.

You don't need cctv indoorsz that to me is the point that crossed the privacy line.
Smart curtains....not just a gadget, they are very practical, and can be allowed for by simply placing 220v socket near a window .

Music...your music system will be wirelessz either using something like Sonos or if you go with voice control, integrated into distributed smart speakers (I sold all my Sonos speakers a few years back and replaced with google compatible speakers).

The beauty of voice control using any of the smart assistants is, it's cheap, reliable, flexiblez upgradeable and requires no dedicated infrastructure beyond wifi coverage, so you can add it or take.it away at your whim.

DopeTech

Clareman wrote: »

For me if you want the full functionality of Amazon/Apple/Google but have concerns about security I'd be far more comfortable using Amazon/Apple/Google rather that trusting something open source or locally stored stuff. I use Google because if someone wants to get into my data in Google they have to hack into Google and if someone is able to do that then I don't think my data will be the big prize. I went for Google because I have only Android products so that discounted Apple and it was a toss of a coin between Google and Amazon, I got a free speaker from Google and just grew from there.

I would say that no matter what you go with, either something bespoke or multinational that you need to take responsibility for your data, review and delete regularly, https://myactivity.google.com/ is 1 of my most visited sites to check, I know you can argue that just because the say they've deleted your data doesn't mean they did but I don't think someone as big as Google would risk the GDPR fine by not deleting it.

Not to scare you but google accounts are hackable, mine got hacked a while back. They got in via Gmail imap I think, turned off 2fa and set a rule so all mail from google doesn't go to the inbox therefore I was unaware it was happening. Then they signed up to God knows what on google cloud and subscribed me to a 3 day free trial of a game which after it ended was €349.99 per week. After that they were trying all my passwords I'd saved to google chrome across lots of websites. Thankfully by then I'd updated all my passwords and ordered new cards. Got refunds in the end but only after a long call to google.

wexfordman2

Oh yeah, and a big tip...do not under any circumstances put speakers in your ceiling, it is the first idea ever, and I speak from experience. I have removed every single one I had (and I had then in six rooms).

In a general note, don't build electronic stuff into the walls and ceilings of your house, cos, concrete lasts much longer that silicon . Your electronics will eventually die, and you don't want to be looking at a replacement for that hole in the wall or ceiling.

Clareman

DopeTech wrote: »

Not to scare you but google accounts are hackable, mine got hacked a while back. They got in via Gmail imap I think, turned off 2fa and set a rule so all mail from google doesn't go to the inbox therefore I was unaware it was happening. Then they signed up to God knows what on google cloud and subscribed me to a 3 day free trial of a game which after it ended was €349.99 per week. After that they were trying all my passwords I'd saved to google chrome across lots of websites. Thankfully by then I'd updated all my passwords and ordered new cards. Got refunds in the end but only after a long call to google.

Absolutley they are hackable and you have to keep an eye on what you give access to, as you said yourself you turned off the notifications and you got the money back so I'd say it works

THE ALM

I'd second a lot of wexfordman has already said with the most important being the decision on the control system. When you decide this then this will determine a lot of what you need in terms of wiring etc. and try to wire as much as possible rather than relying on wireless.

Ideally you want a dedicated area for all the equipment and wiring to run back to as this will make access much easier.

I have been slowly switching as much as I can over to loxone having had several different systems doing several different jobs. Gone are the Hive Heating and Smartthings amongst others.

The plus for the Loxone is the config software where you do all the programming/automation and the app that you could run on a conveniently mounted tablet. You can download the software to play around with and they have several different projects you can load to get used to the workflow and whats possible.

Loxone can also communicate with various other protocols and I have it controlling the Hue lights, DMX lighting, the heating through shelly relays and also connected to the Texecom alarm system which makes use of the PIR sensors for motion detection to turn on lights etc. I use 1-wire sensors(cheap) for measuring temp etc. As the job I am doing is retrofit I am a bit more limited but would probably have had a lot more wired direct through Loxone. You can communicate with KNX, DMX, Modbus, 1-wire, RS485, RS232, DALI, EnOcean to name a few and there is an active community for any help you need.

Loxone can also control sonos speakers although the have just launched a new audio server which look interesting and could be used for doorbell, alarm, TTS etc. and will have sonos control built in, this no doubt will be an addition I will be getting.:rolleyes:

I also run home assistant on a rpi which also communicates with loxone to get me control of anything loxone can't handle, mostly zigbee sensors and node-red.

onanor

Thanks for the feeback all, theres a lot to review in the replies, so ill take my time to go over and research them.


At a minimum Im currently planning a 10g+ backbone throughout the house and then terminated to rj45 eth sockets in each room.
dedicated independant WLANs for security of course although the final net design will depend on what i want to achieve etc
All running back to a dedicated server + switch *somewhere*. either udner stairs or in office etc..

THE ALM wrote: »

I'd second a lot of wexfordman has already said with the most important being the decision on the control system. When you decide this then this will determine a lot of what you need in terms of wiring etc. and try to wire as much as possible rather than relying on wireless.

Ideally you want a dedicated area for all the equipment and wiring to run back to as this will make access much easier.

I have been slowly switching as much as I can over to loxone having had several different systems doing several different jobs. Gone are the Hive Heating and Smartthings amongst others.

The plus for the Loxone is the config software where you do all the programming/automation and the app that you could run on a conveniently mounted tablet. You can download the software to play around with and they have several different projects you can load to get used to the workflow and whats possible.

Loxone can also communicate with various other protocols and I have it controlling the Hue lights, DMX lighting, the heating through shelly relays and also connected to the Texecom alarm system which makes use of the PIR sensors for motion detection to turn on lights etc. I use 1-wire sensors(cheap) for measuring temp etc. As the job I am doing is retrofit I am a bit more limited but would probably have had a lot more wired direct through Loxone. You can communicate with KNX, DMX, Modbus, 1-wire, RS485, RS232, DALI, EnOcean to name a few and there is an active community for any help you need.

Loxone can also control sonos speakers although the have just launched a new audio server which look interesting and could be used for doorbell, alarm, TTS etc. and will have sonos control built in, this no doubt will be an addition I will be getting.:rolleyes:

I also run home assistant on a rpi which also communicates with loxone to get me control of anything loxone can't handle, mostly zigbee sensors and node-red.

This sounds very interesting to me and likely what I would like to achieve, thanks for the tips!

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Oh yeah, and a big tip...do not under any circumstances put speakers in your ceiling, it is the first idea ever, and I speak from experience. I have removed every single one I had (and I had then in six rooms).

In a general note, don't build electronic stuff into the walls and ceilings of your house, cos, concrete lasts much longer that silicon . Your electronics will eventually die, and you don't want to be looking at a replacement for that hole in the wall or ceiling.

I admit that was my initial / current? plan... So how then would you propose to have the mic/speakers installed per room? ceiling seems the best place for them ?
ceilings / walls are likely going to be plasterboard, so any holes should be easily replaced with some plaster and a paint job, no?

wexfordman2

I would advise completely against an mounting anything in the ceilings to be honest.

1) sound quality is poorest, it's coming from the wrong direction (unless you lay on the floor underneath them :-)), and you won't get speakers in a ceiling that are not prone to vibration.
3) in addition, the aesthetics of it, and the poor insulation resulting in holes in your ceiling,lm

For audio, your best option are shelf mounted wireless speakers, be they Sonos, or smart speakers (I have citation 500 harman kardan with built in google assistant, which gives me smart assistant and fantastic audio quality ).

For mic's if you are talking about mics.in your ceilings, they need to be very good quality, and then you need a load of mixing gear to combine all your mics, noise cancellation etc, it's a road I went down, and failed miserably.

You will not beat siri, google assistant or Amazon for sheer ease of use, response, quality, noise cancellation etc, the comparison to in ceiling mics, is a very noisy dirty 1998 mondeo diesel to a brand new Honda ioniq ev, and the Honda will be cheaper too.

So in a per room basis, I have gone form having a 6 zone system with speakers in my ceilings to the following

1) kitchen...citation 500
2) family room, google home
3) office, google home
4) bathroom, removed them entirely, but might look at a home mini)
5) bedroom, google home
6) living room, google home

Kids rooms also have google homes.

Replace the homes with any smart speakers or Sonos for example, but so much simpler, and reliable, and I found that where I needed really good quality audio, the citation fits the bill (or the google home max)