2019 Masters 40 RR Champ doping ban

Macy0161

wpd wrote: »

Lotto Jumbo using Ketones? UCI report on high usage of tramadol in pro cycling?

And that is just the ones we can see.

Both of which are not actually banned substances! They're not doping.

Deleted User wrote: »

Haven't heard what came about after the raid on Arkea's hotel at the tour that time.

I've no doubt those that want to are ahead of the testers, but in that case I think that's because there was nothing in it. Saline in the room of someone with road rash?

wpd

Macy0161 wrote: »

Both of which are not actually banned substances! They're not doping.


I've no doubt those that want to are ahead of the testers, but in that case I think that's because there was nothing in it. Saline in the room of someone with road rash?

I never said they were doping i said they were practices that need looking at.

TGD

Macy0161 wrote: »

On more US based forums, there's quite a lot of discussion of people being medically prescribed testosterone, and whether it's doping, impact on performance etc. I've no idea whether medical prescription of it is common here, and whether that is an impact in masters/ vets racing?....

I think it's very difficult to get a TUE for it. You must have a very obvious medical condition - a problem with the pituitary gland or testicle, a tumor some congenital disorder. Having naturally-low testosterone is not enough. But these things change so don't take my word for it.

magicbastarder

lawrencesummers wrote: »

untold harm to yourself for the sake of a cheating your way to a medal at what is essentially a Micky mouse competition takes the personality of a strange strange person.

i'm not in any way trying to justify what he did, but it can be strange what can be important to people.

i'll see if i can dig out the article, but there was one a couple of years ago about a growing demand for a loose bunch of marathon investigators due to an increasing amount of cheating in marathons.
people would pay others to run marathons for them, and cheat in other ways, and not at a competitive level. sometimes just so they could brandish a cert showing they'd run a marathon in a sub four hour or three and a half hour time, etc.

lawrencesummers

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not in any way trying to justify what he did, but it can be strange what can be important to people.

i'll see if i can dig out the article, but there was one a couple of years ago about a growing demand for a loose bunch of marathon investigators due to an increasing amount of cheating in marathons.
people would pay others to run marathons for them, and cheat in other ways, and not at a competitive level. sometimes just so they could brandish a cert showing they'd run a marathon in a sub four hour or three and a half hour time, etc.

It’s just terribly sad that people think such things matter.

I’ve competed around Europe in a sport that isn’t regulated for drugs at the lower levels, some days I came back with medals, other days nothing and I was never disappointed to lose, I was happy to be able to compete, to learn and have a chance to improve, to have the ability to put myself forward for it. I’ve come back with injuries requiring surgery, lost decisions to home town refs and stood on a few podiums. Happy with all of it and the results were never the motivation, the need to win at that level should only exist at pro level.

I competed here and lost to someone I know was using roids, a polish lad living here for years that was thrown out of his club because he was caught injecting them. That loss doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I know I was clean and did my best, he went onto medal but the guys a cheat and everyone knows it, the medals I have thrown in a drawer somewhere are honestly earned and that means much more to me.

magicbastarder

there's are family friends of hours, three siblings in the family; one made it to elite level and competed in the olympics, one nearly made it to olympic level, and the third has competed at pretty much the top level in his sport. and they're the most relaxed bunch of people you could meet.

my wife described a conversation with their parents as like being at an entmoot.

eeeee

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?
He wasn't some young rider trying to catch selectors or pro teams eyes as they embark on a pro career,* but a pathetic, middle aged 40 something doper with nothing to gain but his own twisted vainglory.
The last doper was the same.

It's just so pathetic.

I think in these cases where there were no mitigating circumstances they should be banned for life. They deliberately and intentionally cheated, without any justification or mitigating factors. Why have the likes of that kind of arsehole back? They're proven to be pathetically useless and damaging to the sport.

In response to the why aren't rugby, GAA and others aren't seeing loads of doping evidence, CI/cyclists test more than any other NGB or sport: https://www.sportireland.ie/sites/default/files/media/document/2020-04/antidoping-review-2019.pdf


*ETA not that this is justifiable but at least the motivation to do it is vaguely understandable

CramCycle

I recall that being suggested before, under a certain age the ban would be 5 years, over a certain age, it's for life. The 5 years would be reduced if they named anyone who brought them into it and could give evidence. It would require more thought.

G1032

eeeee wrote: »

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?

So this isn't the first time in this thread that the assertion has been made that the M40 means nothing.
Ask G Boland who came 4th if it meant nothing.
Ask all the riders who took to the start line of a 133km race after a long seasons training and racing that would have started back the previous November if it meant nothing.
It does mean something.. It's a National Championship RR that most racing riders in Ireland would never have a hope of winning because they're just not good enough.
The race itself seems to be getting very unfairly belittled here a bit by some posters.

Eamonnator

eeeee wrote: »

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?
He wasn't some young rider trying to catch selectors or pro teams eyes as they embark on a pro career,* but a pathetic, middle aged 40 something doper with nothing to gain but his own twisted vainglory.
The last doper was the same.

It's just so pathetic.

I think in these cases where there were no mitigating circumstances they should be banned for life. They deliberately and intentionally cheated, without any justification or mitigating factors. Why have the likes of that kind of arsehole back? They're proven to be pathetically useless and damaging to the sport.

In response to the why aren't rugby, GAA and others aren't seeing loads of doping evidence, CI/cyclists test more than any other NGB or sport: https://www.sportireland.ie/sites/default/files/media/document/2020-04/antidoping-review-2019.pdf


*ETA not that this is justifiable but at least the motivation to do it is vaguely understandable

I agree with most of what you say.
The phrase, that I put in bold, is pathetic.

eeeee

I agree that I was too harsh on it meaning nothing, apologies for that.
I meant it as in the M40 champion isn't going to go on to a pro career or launch themselves into a career as a cyclist, in the way the elite national road race would.

lawrencesummers

eeeee wrote: »

I agree that I was too harsh on it meaning nothing, apologies for that.
I meant it as in the M40 champion isn't going to go on to a pro career or launch themselves into a career as a cyclist, in the way the elite national road race would.

In the greater scheme of things it’s pretty meaningless, it doesn’t mean nothing but winning it doesn’t mean a great deal to be honest.

It’s being competitive at a hobby.
It’s second division league of Ireland level soccer. If even.

CramCycle

I wouldn't dope but I'd ride over your corpse to get points in a club league race :eek: everyone's competitive edge is different.

Taxuser1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

In the greater scheme of things it’s pretty meaningless, it doesn’t mean nothing but winning it doesn’t mean a great deal to be honest.

It’s being competitive at a hobby.
It’s second division league of Ireland level soccer. If even.

i'd agree with the lad before you who said it does mean a great deal. its the same amount of sacrifice and hard work as young lads are doing against their age group and to do well in a National Champs does mean a lot.

when you take into account the fact many of us work 40+ hour weeks, have kids, have to do our training before they get up or have gone to bed, sacrifice drinks with the lads or just watch the food and weight, slowing metabolisms, that's what makes it so much more special in my opinion, we're not sitting around on our playstations recovering for Mondello. every spare minute counts because there are no easy ways to win what is essentially an A1 race. i think it's belittling it by calling it a hobby - sounds to me you're not a racer yourself.

eeeee

Well if you're not a professional cyclist it's definitely a hobby. And I say that as someone who races and has 2 gold elite national medals and a few of other colours. It's a very involved hobby, but a hobby nonetheless, and will never be anything else for 99% of us unless you're a teenager/early 20's and good enough to make it professionally.

lawrencesummers

Taxuser1 wrote: »

i'd agree with the lad before you who said it does mean a great deal. its the same amount of sacrifice and hard work as young lads are doing against their age group and to do well in a National Champs does mean a lot.

when you take into account the fact many of us work 40+ hour weeks, have kids, have to do our training before they get up or have gone to bed, sacrifice drinks with the lads or just watch the food and weight, slowing metabolisms, that's what makes it so much more special in my opinion, we're not sitting around on our playstations recovering for Mondello. every spare minute counts because there are no easy ways to win what is essentially an A1 race. i think it's belittling it by calling it a hobby - sounds to me you're not a racer yourself.

I don’t doubt the dedication that goes into it, which is commendable but it’s still essentially being very dedicated to a hobby and makes the compulsion to cheat your way to a medal particularly sad.

It’s not any different to the hundreds of people in many other amateur sports sacrificing a lot in the pursuit of success. GAA, athletics, boxing, Soccer, Golf etc etc.

No I’m not a racer, but I understand the commitment and requirements to be successful, for a long number of years was competitive at another sport that required hours of training, strict diet, no alcohol, training through multiple injuries and putting many other aspects of life on hold, but I can recognise that it was still a hobby.

Taxuser1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I don’t doubt the dedication that goes into it, which is commendable but it’s still essentially being very dedicated to a hobby and makes the compulsion to cheat your way to a medal particularly sad.

It’s not any different to the hundreds of people in many other amateur sports sacrificing a lot in the pursuit of success. GAA, athletics, boxing, Soccer, Golf etc etc.

No I’m not a racer, but I understand the commitment and requirements to be successful, for a long number of years was competitive at another sport that required hours of training, strict diet, no alcohol, training through multiple injuries and putting many other aspects of life on hold, but I can recognise that it was still a hobby.

Yeah fair enough. I suppose I personally have treated it as a mark to aim for for a few years so it means more to me. Fairly sad to see it become the stuff of humour because of one coconut.

buffalo

Taxuser1 wrote: »

Yeah fair enough. I suppose I personally have treated it as a mark to aim for for a few years so it means more to me. Fairly sad to see it become the stuff of humour because of one coconut.

I think 'hobby' is a pretty all encompassing term, from something you might do for a couple of hours a month to a passion that consumes your every waking hour outside of your actual job. (Probably have to have some time for family too, but only if they're doing your hobby too.)

CramCycle

I think the point that everyone is in agreement with though is that it is a sh1tty thing to do, it is cheating as they aren't playing to the same rules as everyone else and is essentially theft if they win.

This is my view regardless of it being A4 or the Vuelta, cheating is cheating, and winning while cheating is theft.

I give some minor leeway to the young who are manipulated into it by managers, parents and coaches but even they deserve punishment, although a time limited one as to judge me as the person I was at 21 compared to who I am now I think would be unfair.

After a certain age though, it is inexcusable, no matter the level. If your 35+ it should be a lifetime ban from competitive sport. 25 - 34, a 10 year ban, 18 - 25 a 5 year ban and under 18, a 2 year ban with your name protected and a full investigation to how it happened.

MangleBadger

Sailing would be my main sport. And one of the greatest sailors of all time, Paul Elvstrom made the following quote...

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Which I think would be pretty apt in this scenario. I want to compete against the best people I can compete against. And I want to win. But I want to have earned that victory.

lawrencesummers

CramCycle wrote: »

I think the point that everyone is in agreement with though is that it is a sh1tty thing to do, it is cheating as they aren't playing to the same rules as everyone else and is essentially theft if they win.

This is my view regardless of it being A4 or the Vuelta, cheating is cheating, and winning while cheating is theft.

I give some minor leeway to the young who are manipulated into it by managers, parents and coaches but even they deserve punishment, although a time limited one as to judge me as the person I was at 21 compared to who I am now I think would be unfair.

After a certain age though, it is inexcusable, no matter the level. If your 35+ it should be a lifetime ban from competitive sport. 25 - 34, a 10 year ban, 18 - 25 a 5 year ban and under 18, a 2 year ban with your name protected and a full investigation to how it happened.

I agree but I think what’s missing is the reason for participation. The cyclists in the Vuelta are professionals with ambitions of winning the highest honour, or paid participants in teams which have made financial and human investments into winning the competition, at that level there is only one winner.

At the level where this cheating occurred, which is amateur / hobby whatever you want to call it the actual participation is what should be cherished, the ability to be at that level and be some bit competitive, taking part should be the aim, winning should be a bonus not the be all and end all.

Give it a year when this doper isn’t riding and I bet you he will be thinking that he would prefer to be riding and losing than not riding at all.

And I don’t mean this in a “let’s tell all the children there are no losers and everyone gets a winners medal” but to me able to compete nationally in your forties is reward, a podium is the cherry on top which is great if it comes but no the end of the world if it doesn’t.

lawrencesummers

MangleBadger wrote: »

Sailing would be my main sport. And one of the greatest sailors of all time, Paul Elvstrom made the following quote...

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Which I think would be pretty apt in this scenario. I want to compete against the best people I can compete against. And I want to win. But I want to have earned that victory.

Is a days sailing when you come last still better than a day not sailing?

Taxuser1

buffalo wrote: »

I think 'hobby' is a pretty all encompassing term, from something you might do for a couple of hours a month to a passion that consumes your every waking hour outside of your actual job. (Probably have to have some time for family too, but only if they're doing your hobby too.)

the family is purely a hobby, the cycling is far more important :-)

lawrencesummers

Taxuser1 wrote: »

the family is purely a hobby, the cycling is far more important :-)

Dozol, the EPO of child-rearing

dahat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Dozol, the EPO of child-rearing

Reared a child on that stuff much to my regret now, some tack though.

Macy0161

TGD wrote: »

I think it's very difficult to get a TUE for it. You must have a very obvious medical condition - a problem with the pituitary gland or testicle, a tumor some congenital disorder. Having naturally-low testosterone is not enough. But these things change so don't take my word for it.

It wasn't really in that aspect - just more in the context of the comment of vets racing, where it's effectively a club league. Like I say, in the US, they seem to dish it out like claims of voter fraud from Trump!

godtabh

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s second division league of Ireland level soccer. If even.

To be fair, having played league of Ireland football in the Eircom League you train to your ability. Clearly not professional or the ability of a premier league player but I still trained 2/3 times a week with the team, my own sessions, not going out not drinking (I gave up drink for 9 months once!). I've nothing to show for it now (probably couldnt even kick a ball!) but at least I tired to better myself.

If you are competing at A3 or M60 (which my uncle won recently and I've seen the effort put into that) you only get out what you put in. Doing a cafe run might be a hobby but competing at any level is more than that.

magicbastarder

eeeee wrote: »

In response to the why aren't rugby, GAA and others aren't seeing loads of doping evidence, CI/cyclists test more than any other NGB or sport: https://www.sportireland.ie/sites/default/files/media/document/2020-04/antidoping-review-2019.pdf

The figures for horse sport Ireland there - are they figures for testing humans or horses?

eeeee

magicbastarder wrote: »

The figures for horse sport Ireland there - are they figures for testing humans or horses?

Both I imagine.

magicbastarder

i'd have assumed horses were tested incredibly regularly. to be fair, they're not shy about giving urine samples.