Discovery 3x04 - 'Forgot Me Not' **Spoilers Within**

Goodshape

I honestly don't mind any of that stuff in relation to Tilly. She's an ensign and an engineer on a science vessel, she's not military elite or anything like that.

We've had "ditsy" characters before (Barclay the most obvious) and they're allowed to be themselves and grow and develop as people. That's good. There's also Scotty, not exactly the image of good health and lifestyle choices once they got to the movies.

And she does seem to be growing as a person. I like the character just fine - she just maybe shouldn't be treated like such a wonderful asset to Starfleet, as she tends to be by Saru, Burnham, Stamets, pretty much everyone.


Again I think it might be too much "self awareness" from the writers. I've read that they stay up-to-date using Memory Alpha and keeping an eye or two on social media, and it shows. Tilly proving popular? MORE TILLY!! - even though having a ditsy engineering ensign on the bridge and joining the Captain on away missions doesn't actually make much sense.

Oh, what's that? People think Tilly is too ditsy? Let's throw some dialogue in there, just so they know we're listening.


So great, they're listening. But do they actually know where they're going with this or are they just scrambling to appease the latest reactionary whims from "the fandom".

Stark

Is she that fat? Trying not to sound like a perv, but she is very chest heavy so looks overweight in any of the shots that only show above the waist (which is most of them). But she seems to have a normal size waist in any of the full length shots I've seen her in.

breezy1985

Goodshape wrote: »

I honestly don't mind any of that stuff in relation to Tilly. She's an ensign and an engineer on a science vessel, she's not military elite or anything like that.

We've had "ditsy" characters before (Barclay the most obvious) and they're allowed to be themselves and grow and develop as people. That's good. There's also Scotty, not exactly the image of good health and lifestyle choices once they got to the movies.

And she does seem to be growing as a person. I like the character just fine - she just maybe shouldn't be treated like such a wonderful asset to Starfleet, as she tends to be by Saru, Burnham, Stamets, pretty much everyone.


Again I think it might be too much "self awareness" from the writers. I've read that they stay up-to-date using Memory Alpha and keeping an eye or two on social media, and it shows. Tilly proving popular? MORE TILLY!! - even though having a ditsy engineering ensign on the bridge and joining the Captain on away missions doesn't actually make much sense.

Oh, what's that? People think Tilly is too ditsy? Let's throw some dialogue in there, just so they know we're listening.


So great, they're listening. But do they actually know where they're going with this or are they just scrambling to appease the latest reactionary whims from "the fandom".

You could easily have her be hyperactive and also have a fuller figure but they have made a point of her being unfit and scared all the time. I don't have a problem with the way the character looks but not a fan of a Starfleet officer who can't run or fight.

Barclay I agree with you there but Scotty is about unfair as that was down to the fact that those movies were made after the cast aged it's not like they hired Doohan when he was fat and old

Evade

Tilly looks like she's bordering on obese.

breezy1985

Evade wrote: »

Tilly looks like she's bordering on obese.

Doesn't matter how she looks you could still write the character as being stronger.

It's like they want to show they are body positive by having her there but then write the character full of "fat" clichés. Why not show her confidently knock someone out like Burnham does every week or don't have scenes where she is panting after a jog

Evade

She could definitely be written better. That was in response to Stark asking was she actually fat.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

She could definitely be written better. That was in response to Stark asking was she actually fat.

Yeah she is, but I really don't give a crap TBQH.

IDIC anyone?
In a Federation of super-strength, weak, intelligent, hunter/prey species, etc do we really think that this would be an actual disadvantage?


Just make her be learning and an actual wide eyed ensign and we'll be grand.
Not all things to all people

Rawr

Goodshape wrote: »

Again I think it might be too much "self awareness" from the writers. I've read that they stay up-to-date using Memory Alpha and keeping an eye or two on social media, and it shows. Tilly proving popular? MORE TILLY!! - even though having a ditsy engineering ensign on the bridge and joining the Captain on away missions doesn't actually make much sense.

Oh, what's that? People think Tilly is too ditsy? Let's throw some dialogue in there, just so they know we're listening.


So great, they're listening. But do they actually know where they're going with this or are they just scrambling to appease the latest reactionary whims from "the fandom".

It does appear that writing for Tilly is somewhat influenced by fan-reaction after Season 1. I remember liking the character a good deal in her original outing. She really felt like that Starfleet officer many of us would actually turn out to be in real-life. (We all like to think we would be a Kirk or Sisco, but really I think many of us on a starship would probably end up behaving like Barcley or Tilly)

I think they must have noticed that fans liked Tilly, and so in a bizarre move they doubled down on her in Season 2 by morphing her into Trek's equivalent of Jar-Jar Binks. It was damn near heartbreaking what they did to her in that season.
I'm glad to see that they may have paid attention to feedback again, and dialed down her "Power of Math" a few notches to a level where she's closer to her more relatable Season 1 self.

But to address your last point there. I do fear that although that are taking feedback onboard, they are acting on it without a decent structure.

Take for example Michael's "new persona" angle. That appears to be in reaction to fan criticism to her poorly executed "raised up by Vulcans" character-beat that made her a stoney-faced antagonistic anti-hero type. They've ditched that now to allow her to smile and be "more human". Not a bad idea on the face of it, but the problem is that they never really planned that character development out. They simply tell us that is has happened and do a poor job of linking character development moments into the plot itself. They still have the rest of the season to flesh this all out, but my gut tells me that they'll keeping tell us that "Michael is different now!", without actually doing any more work in the writing.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

IDIC anyone?
In a Federation of super-strength, weak, intelligent, hunter/prey species, etc do we really think that this would be an actual disadvantage?

Yes, being significantly overweight is a disadvantage.

Before anyone gets too in a twist 181cm ~96kg (or 5'11" ~210lbs in barbarian units) so I too am bordering on obese.

breezy1985

Worst of all is the Emperor who has gone way beyond serving the purpose but we still have to put up with trying to believe that space Hitler would be allowed walk freely around a ship because fans like her

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Yes, being significantly overweight is a disadvantage.

Before anyone gets too in a twist 181cm ~96kg (or 5'11" ~210lbs in barbarian units) so I too am bordering on obese.

In our world, yeah. From a guy who has just lost 3 inches around the waist and still needs to lose another 3!


In that world, it would not be. Compare any human to a Vulcan, physically, as they lose (ignoring magic double fist punch). Same with intelligence.
Same Human Vs a Zakdorn and all of a sudden average Joe is buff.
With the vast differences in physical ability, between the species, it would only be a disadvantage against other humans.

I mean she would out lift and out run Bynars all day long. The disadvantage is very relative, in that universe

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

In our world, yeah. From a guy who has just lost 3 inches around the waist and still needs to lose another 3!

In that world, it would not be. Compare any human to a Vulcan, physically, as they lose (ignoring magic double fist punch). Same with intelligence.
Same Human Vs a Zakdorn and all of a sudden average Joe is buff.
With the vast differences in physical ability, between the species, it would only be a disadvantage against other humans.

I mean she would out lift and out run Bynars all day long. The disadvantage is very relative, in that universe

Then why would any human bother trying to do anything? Just because there are people who might always be better than you is not a reason to not try.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Then why would any human bother trying to do anything? Just because there are people who might always be better than you is not a reason to not try.

Never said that. I said that it would not be a meaningful disadvantage, in that universe. Their entire society would have to be built around races/individuals of differing physical traits and abilities.

Goodshape

I find it equally if not more ridiculous that practically everyone on TV these days looks like they spend most of their lives in the gym. So much so that someone like Tilly, by comparison, looks "almost obese".

I'm not expecting beer guts and five o'clock shadows, particularly not on a starship, but they don't all need to be fighting-fit at all times either.

Star Trek's not the worst offender, though. Maybe it's not even a particularly new thing; just something I noticed.

I watched The Expanse season 1 - 4 during lockdown and it looks like the move to Amazon Prime in season 4 came with some new gym equipment and diet plans! Anyone else notice that? Not an ounce of body-fat on anyone in S4. It's subtle but it made it feel slightly less connected to the real world, imo.

Banana Republic 1

Rawr wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them to re-cycle a villain like this. They might also forget in the process that the whole point of bringing Discovery forward into the future was to put the sphere data out of Control's reach.

There’s was no need to at all because they destroyed the AI on series two

Banana Republic 1

Goodshape wrote: »

I find it equally if not more ridiculous that practically everyone on TV these days looks like they spend most of their lives in the gym. So much so that someone like Tilly, by comparison, looks "almost obese".

I'm not expecting beer guts and five o'clock shadows, particularly not on a starship, but they don't all need to be fighting-fit at all times either.

Star Trek's not the worst offender, though. Maybe it's not even a particularly new thing; just something I noticed.

I watched The Expanse season 1 - 4 during lockdown and it looks like the move to Amazon Prime in season 4 came with some new gym equipment and diet plans! Anyone else notice that? Not an ounce of body-fat on anyone in S4. It's subtle but it made it feel slightly less connected to the real world, imo.

Their meant to be soldiers you don’t see many fat infantrymen

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Their meant to be soldiers you don’t see many fat infantrymen

You should take a wander around the curragh.

breezy1985

Goodshape wrote: »

I find it equally if not more ridiculous that practically everyone on TV these days looks like they spend most of their lives in the gym. So much so that someone like Tilly, by comparison, looks "almost obese".

I'm not expecting beer guts and five o'clock shadows, particularly not on a starship, but they don't all need to be fighting-fit at all times either.

Star Trek's not the worst offender, though. Maybe it's not even a particularly new thing; just something I noticed.

I watched The Expanse season 1 - 4 during lockdown and it looks like the move to Amazon Prime in season 4 came with some new gym equipment and diet plans! Anyone else notice that? Not an ounce of body-fat on anyone in S4. It's subtle but it made it feel slightly less connected to the real world, imo.

Most likely cause the cast have made a tidy sum and can afford personal trainers now. I think it makes sense in The Expanse where working on a ship is supposed to be hard work. I would also expect Starfleet officers to be someway fit regardless of how big their arse is I want to know that when the Packleds attack the guy beside me won't be out of breath after 10 seconds

pixelburp

Goodshape wrote: »

...

Star Trek's not the worst offender, though. Maybe it's not even a particularly new thing; just something I noticed.

I watched The Expanse season 1 - 4 during lockdown and it looks like the move to Amazon Prime in season 4 came with some new gym equipment and diet plans! Anyone else notice that? Not an ounce of body-fat on anyone in S4. It's subtle but it made it feel slightly less connected to the real world, imo.

Can't say I noticed but maybe the thinking is the characters live lives in zero gravity; in the books the Belters are meant to be thin and often gangly. When I first watched the show I was a little disappointed how few Belters were the string beans described in the books; they should be like Saru really

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Never said that. I said that it would not be a meaningful disadvantage, in that universe. Their entire society would have to be built around races/individuals of differing physical traits and abilities.

True but if you're a below average member of one of those races it's a disadvantage.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

So much so that someone like Tilly, by comparison, looks "almost obese".

Because she does. Obese is a not as heavy as most people think.

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Can't say I noticed but maybe the thinking is the characters live lives in zero gravity; in the books the Belters are meant to be thin and often gangly. When I first watched the show I was a little disappointed how few Belters were the string beans described in the books

Super skinny and clearing 7 foot if I remember correctly. Didn't have the money back in the sci-fi channel days to make them look physically different which is why they exaggerated the tattoos and punk look to tell them apart. Could have at leash hired some tall dudes though

Banana Republic 1

Do you think people will watch STD or Picard back in the same manner they rewatch TNG, DS9 or even voyager or enterprise. I would say not an that alone sums up these turkeys.

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

Super skinny and clearing 7 foot if I remember correctly. Didn't have the money back in the sci-fi channel days to make them look physically different which is why they exaggerated the tattoos and punk look to tell them apart. Could have at leash hired some tall dudes though

Yeah maybe the extra Amazon money allowed for better extras than the generic body types from the SyFy days. As you say the Belters should be super skinny from a life in zero G. The main Belter cast almost never that - though Ashford (for instance) was played well to begin with, which helped but he should have been a goalpost of a man

Banana Republic 1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You should take a wander around the curragh.

Funny but I did mean troops within the same age range as on the show.

breezy1985

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Do you think people will watch STD or Picard back in the same manner they rewatch TNG, DS9 or even voyager or enterprise. I would say not an that alone sums up these turkeys.

I've rewatched Picard once already but a lot of that is probably down to me liking a number of the actors but I did zone out for the last 2 episodes

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah maybe the extra Amazon money allowed for better extras than the generic body types from the SyFy days. As you say the Belters should be super skinny from a life in zero G. The main Belter cast almost never that - though Ashford (for instance) was played well to begin with, which helped but he should have been a goalpost of a man

You would put serious limits on your casting ability if you could only hire basketball players and for the most part I have liked the belter actors with the exception of Naomi

Smacruairi

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Do you think people will watch STD or Picard back in the same manner they rewatch TNG, DS9 or even voyager or enterprise. I would say not an that alone sums up these turkeys.

I was drunk, watched a random ds9 episode, grand no problem. I can't imagine doing the same with DISCO series 2 or 3. Start of season 1 up to the mirror universe maybe though.

Rawr

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

There’s was no need to at all because they destroyed the AI on series two

Ahh, but this is scifi and nothing is really dead so long as the plot requires it.
Especially when we're talking about a living computer virus that knows how to hop between different hosts. They merely killed it's last host...the virus itself could still be operating in that pool of gore we saw them clean up in Episode 2.

I'm not saying that I actually want Control to return. Like many thinks in Discovery it was an interesting idea that was very poorly executed. However I think it's possible that they would bring it back as the big-bad of this show again.

Stark

DS9 I find the toughest to rewatch simply because of the serialised nature of the story. That said, it does do a far better job of focusing on one particular piece of the plot and wrapping that up within an episode compared to modern serialised shows. (Game of Thrones being particularly bad for each episode showing a few minutes a piece from about a dozen plot/character lines).

TNG and Voyager I find myself rewatching the most. Whatever about Voyager's flaws, it has a lot of episodes that are fun and easy to watch when I need a little break. "Regeneration" is the only episode from "Enterprise" that I find myself rewatching.

Discovery season 1 has a couple of episodes I like to rewatch. Picard I haven't rewatched any yet.